S
Supmargy
Visionary
Silver Level
Yeah youre right about the aj flop raise. Wouldnt have been bad. Im always more passive in multiway pots. The chance that someone has something better is bigger so... But with betting id probably know whether im ahead or behind.
Aa hand: yeah flush draws so didnt want to give him the right odds. Id never put him on 2 pair and a set was unlikely. Maybe qjs, Ax, kx. Got a fishy vibe from him.
I did NOT expect T5o though!
Aa hand: yeah flush draws so didnt want to give him the right odds. Id never put him on 2 pair and a set was unlikely. Maybe qjs, Ax, kx. Got a fishy vibe from him.
I did NOT expect T5o though!
Beanfacekilla
Legend
Silver Level
Hey thanks man. Yesterday was a terrible day. I finally got some sleep, feel a little better for now. One day at a time.
S
Supmargy
Visionary
Silver Level
Its been a while since I posted because I dont have access to a pc for a few days. So im playing zoom for 10-15 minutes a couple of times a day. Its going decently. Got a couple of coolers but managed to break even (0.5$ up).
Anyway. I have 2 questions.
1) how do we play TT and JJ oop (especially in SB and BB) preflop? I often 3bet those in cahs games vs known villains. But in zoom I feel like they miss the flop often and I dont know my opponents so I fold them more often than in cash games. So ive stopped 3betting them and play them like smaller pocket pairs and try to setmine. Then I tend to fold if there are 2 overcards on the board. Or if the V bets really aggressively with 1 overcard.
2) from what position can we start open raising low/middle suited connectors (65s-T9s)? I generally open raise or call them from CO or BTN but fold them from UTG and MP.
Both questions are for 6max.
Anyway. I have 2 questions.
1) how do we play TT and JJ oop (especially in SB and BB) preflop? I often 3bet those in cahs games vs known villains. But in zoom I feel like they miss the flop often and I dont know my opponents so I fold them more often than in cash games. So ive stopped 3betting them and play them like smaller pocket pairs and try to setmine. Then I tend to fold if there are 2 overcards on the board. Or if the V bets really aggressively with 1 overcard.
2) from what position can we start open raising low/middle suited connectors (65s-T9s)? I generally open raise or call them from CO or BTN but fold them from UTG and MP.
Both questions are for 6max.
Alucard
Santoryu
Silver Level
As you know there are no definite answers for those questions in poker. Just how players play & adjust their plays against other players. But I'll tell you what I do mostly in such a situation
1. As you know I've pretty much tightened from SB & 3 betting all of my continuation range. So position of the V matters. I'm not 3betting small pockets usually against early openers like 2s-6/7s uless I know them to be nits & tight players. So those hands would be a fold for me from SB. While the higher ones will always be a 3bet.
From BB I'm flatting until almost 9s vs early positions. 9s would be a 3bet or flat. And everything higher would be a 3bet. Late positions I'm fine with 3betting small pockets cause they don't play well oop in anykind of board cause we can easily be outplayed.
John & Bruce have told me the same & see it as far more profitable than flatting.
Setmining with 10s & Js are a bad idea. They are very strong hands. You should know that the villain also doesn't know what you are holding. So how you play shouldn't always be the cards you are holding just how you disguise them & how the V reacts to certain plays on certain boards.
2. I open 78s from UTG & that's the basic lowest suited connenctor I open from UTG. But sometimes I run pretty loose opening up even 65s from UTG.
I almost always 3bet with suited connectors in position going down to even 65s sometimes. Vs some tight players from EP I'd fold hands like 6s,76s,78s esometimes of course.
I really love & enjoy playing those hands.
1. As you know I've pretty much tightened from SB & 3 betting all of my continuation range. So position of the V matters. I'm not 3betting small pockets usually against early openers like 2s-6/7s uless I know them to be nits & tight players. So those hands would be a fold for me from SB. While the higher ones will always be a 3bet.
From BB I'm flatting until almost 9s vs early positions. 9s would be a 3bet or flat. And everything higher would be a 3bet. Late positions I'm fine with 3betting small pockets cause they don't play well oop in anykind of board cause we can easily be outplayed.
John & Bruce have told me the same & see it as far more profitable than flatting.
Setmining with 10s & Js are a bad idea. They are very strong hands. You should know that the villain also doesn't know what you are holding. So how you play shouldn't always be the cards you are holding just how you disguise them & how the V reacts to certain plays on certain boards.
2. I open 78s from UTG & that's the basic lowest suited connenctor I open from UTG. But sometimes I run pretty loose opening up even 65s from UTG.
I almost always 3bet with suited connectors in position going down to even 65s sometimes. Vs some tight players from EP I'd fold hands like 6s,76s,78s esometimes of course.
I really love & enjoy playing those hands.
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S
Supmargy
Visionary
Silver Level
Wow whats your 3bet% overall? Mine is around 7% and that was Blackrains recommended 3bet% if i remember correctly. I feel like if i 3bet small pp and suited connectors in position it would be way higher.
3betting weaker hands seems like something you can get away with more easily in zoom than normal cash games.
Thanks for your reply!
Had a huge cooler with JJ from BB earlier.
Utg openraises 4 bb. Mp, BtN and Sb flat. So i might have squeezed but i flatted. 5 handed flop.
Flop is JT9 rainbow. Check check raise 2/3 pot by UTG, fold fold call call.
Turn 2.
Sb allin, call allin, call allin.
River 5.
Sb shows TT set
I show JJ set
Utg shows 78s straight.
I have no idea whether its better to 3bet 5x or 6x the open raise in this situation. Being results oriented it would definitely have helped. Any thoughts?
3betting weaker hands seems like something you can get away with more easily in zoom than normal cash games.
Thanks for your reply!
Had a huge cooler with JJ from BB earlier.
Utg openraises 4 bb. Mp, BtN and Sb flat. So i might have squeezed but i flatted. 5 handed flop.
Flop is JT9 rainbow. Check check raise 2/3 pot by UTG, fold fold call call.
Turn 2.
Sb allin, call allin, call allin.
River 5.
Sb shows TT set
I show JJ set
Utg shows 78s straight.
I have no idea whether its better to 3bet 5x or 6x the open raise in this situation. Being results oriented it would definitely have helped. Any thoughts?
Alucard
Santoryu
Silver Level
My 3bet PF at 5NL zoom 6max is at 6.68
That hand sucks. But could've made him fold if you just squeezed there
That is a great squeeze spot tbh. Always take advantage of such spots. Dead money all around the table. Only guy you have to be worried about the UTG or perhaps a slow played monster but if you think like that, you'd never be able to take advantage over such spots. So don't be afraid, 3 bet & attack where the opportunity is. There are very cunning players who'll squeeze there with absolute garbage just to collect the dead money.
That hand sucks. But could've made him fold if you just squeezed there
That is a great squeeze spot tbh. Always take advantage of such spots. Dead money all around the table. Only guy you have to be worried about the UTG or perhaps a slow played monster but if you think like that, you'd never be able to take advantage over such spots. So don't be afraid, 3 bet & attack where the opportunity is. There are very cunning players who'll squeeze there with absolute garbage just to collect the dead money.
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Quads2017
Enthusiast
Silver Level
Hi, nice thread to startup! Do not we all want to become winning players!
Thanks for sharing the hands as I have experienced these too!
My experience in tiny stakes poker is that it is better to be in the lead with betting instead of calling. Whenever there is a 3 bet / re-raise I used to think it was to do with the small value of money and that the other player was bluffing ... unfortunately also in this stake level you get beat because players have a better hand.
Later on in the thread you try to make an excuse for not folding by analysing how much money you lost in folding, but how much money did you loose by calling?
And more importantly how much money did you win by betting and the opponent calling and you having the better hand?
GL and I am curious to follow your progress!!
Thanks for sharing the hands as I have experienced these too!
My experience in tiny stakes poker is that it is better to be in the lead with betting instead of calling. Whenever there is a 3 bet / re-raise I used to think it was to do with the small value of money and that the other player was bluffing ... unfortunately also in this stake level you get beat because players have a better hand.
Later on in the thread you try to make an excuse for not folding by analysing how much money you lost in folding, but how much money did you loose by calling?
And more importantly how much money did you win by betting and the opponent calling and you having the better hand?
GL and I am curious to follow your progress!!
A
AlexTheOwl
Visionary
Silver Level
I am no expert, especially at cash, but this is the #1 change I have seen in these games in recent years.
S
Supmargy
Visionary
Silver Level
Hi guys. Its been a while. My phone is broken so i didnt play much lately.
Heres a hand I just played and wanted feedback on.
Hero 135bb ,Villain 250 bb
Hero has AsKs
Utg raises to 3 bb, fold, hero raises to 9bb, fold, fold, fold, utg call.
Pot21bb
Flop 2d 7s 8s
Utg check, hero bets 15bb, utg raises to 45bb.
Hero??
Heres a hand I just played and wanted feedback on.
Hero 135bb ,Villain 250 bb
Hero has AsKs
Utg raises to 3 bb, fold, hero raises to 9bb, fold, fold, fold, utg call.
Pot21bb
Flop 2d 7s 8s
Utg check, hero bets 15bb, utg raises to 45bb.
Hero??
Beanfacekilla
Legend
Silver Level
This hand highlights how we can balance our check back range, and check back this flop. Because now it sucks.
Let's play the hand back... V is UTG, range should presumably be tighter, so he calls our 3b.
This flop does hit some hands, and if he has an over pair like 99-JJ, he may play it this way, he also could have flopped a set too.
This is a fine time to check back on this flop. We avoid this very spot.
Because calling is kinda bad, we will often have a tough decision on the turn as well if we brick. I think it's fair to say V prob won't fold, so fist pump getting it in doesn't have the same value either, because I don't feel like we have fold equity.
Me personally I prob just call, and reassess on the turn in this particular case, but that is only based on the fact we prob make some $$ if we hit in position here, we can control the betting somewhat.
But if we call, and he bombs the turn, it then becomes a spot where we really must have a good price.
So yeah, check back flop. Realize equity. That's what I'd do anyways. Many people prob c bet your hand, and just get it in. I think that raising with draws/overs is ok, but we have to feel like we have some fold equity for a play like this to work the best.
Let's play the hand back... V is UTG, range should presumably be tighter, so he calls our 3b.
This flop does hit some hands, and if he has an over pair like 99-JJ, he may play it this way, he also could have flopped a set too.
This is a fine time to check back on this flop. We avoid this very spot.
Because calling is kinda bad, we will often have a tough decision on the turn as well if we brick. I think it's fair to say V prob won't fold, so fist pump getting it in doesn't have the same value either, because I don't feel like we have fold equity.
Me personally I prob just call, and reassess on the turn in this particular case, but that is only based on the fact we prob make some $$ if we hit in position here, we can control the betting somewhat.
But if we call, and he bombs the turn, it then becomes a spot where we really must have a good price.
So yeah, check back flop. Realize equity. That's what I'd do anyways. Many people prob c bet your hand, and just get it in. I think that raising with draws/overs is ok, but we have to feel like we have some fold equity for a play like this to work the best.
B
braveslice
Pull-ups!
Silver Level
Eh this seems to go against every instinct I have developed in poker. So I would like to learn more.
Against sets {77,88} we have 24%, that is the worst case scenario, we are given pot odds for shoving 41%. Against set range even if we hit A or K on the turn given pot odds to call 81 to win 270bb = 30% can we really fold anymore, so A and K are dirty against sets, and we only have effective outs for spade run out.
If we assume instead that villain has some other hands too, let say KK and QQ (blocking a bit our out), {KK, QQ,77,88} we have 40%. So if we assume he is only doing this with sets, we should fold, if we think he has wider range we should shove. Surely we have 1% fold equity at least.
I know my text does not make lot of sense, and that is because I don’t really know why my instincts are saying shove or fold.
Beanfacekilla
Legend
Silver Level
These are all excellent points.
I wouldn't have bet the flop here. I would not be in this spot. There is no reason to bet, our hand is so good, and has so much potential, I want to see a turn, and a river. I don't want to put stacks in to do this. That's my logic.
As played, yeah this guy has a strong hand, or a monster draw at least. He isn't folding, at least I don't think he is. It's a flip mostly, and sometimes we are less against sets. That's the reason I just call as played, because I do have the feeling this guy is strong enough to pay us off if we bink the turn.
But I want to highlight the fact I wouldn't bet the flop. The reason why I don't bet, is because dude opened UTG, and he probably isn't going to fold that much to c bet, and also, if he c/r us it's gross. We can just get it in here, but I don't think he is folding, and we need to hit, and I would say the only outs we have, that we know are good, is flush outs. We win like 1/3 of the time with that info.
Alucard
Santoryu
Silver Level
I very much like bean's play about checking back the flop. It makes a lot of sense. But also it make some hands draw & get a free card. I have to try & play a imilar spot in my head but I can't seem to decide on checking or betting tbh. For one you have two overcards with a flush draw which in my book is always a bet OOP. But we are in position with a 3 bet pot.
I doubt the V has a set here tbh if he is a decent enough player. Those hands would likely fold pre. Not sure at 2NL though.
I'm never folding here probably shoving. Calling is bad cause if you miss the turn you'd be in a very bad spot. And if you have enabled running it twice and the villain has as well, it could be very much a chop in the end if you GII on the flop.
So perhaps betting & GIIin is better for me??!!! I can't decide tbh.
I doubt the V has a set here tbh if he is a decent enough player. Those hands would likely fold pre. Not sure at 2NL though.
I'm never folding here probably shoving. Calling is bad cause if you miss the turn you'd be in a very bad spot. And if you have enabled running it twice and the villain has as well, it could be very much a chop in the end if you GII on the flop.
So perhaps betting & GIIin is better for me??!!! I can't decide tbh.
Beanfacekilla
Legend
Silver Level
Yeah I don't mind getting it in, but lately I've been trying to avoid gamble spots, and I've adjusted my c bet frequency last couple hundred hours or so.
I know calling isn't best choice, but we are 135 BB deep starting hand, that's why I like it a little less gambling.
But yeah I just play it differently TBH.
I know calling isn't best choice, but we are 135 BB deep starting hand, that's why I like it a little less gambling.
But yeah I just play it differently TBH.
Beanfacekilla
Legend
Silver Level
Oh I forgot to add, V could easily have a set here. He would have to call 6 BB pre, and you guys are somewhat deep, it's totally plausible for him to have 22/77/88 and play exactly this way. I would open 7-7 and 8-8, and if I got 3b, turn it into setmine.
It's going to look like hero has an over pair or FD here to this V. He is C/R us.
It's going to look like hero has an over pair or FD here to this V. He is C/R us.
Alucard
Santoryu
Silver Level
Can you explain why you'd set mine OOP in a 3bet pot Bean? Where you are very likely to miss the flop & would fold?? Is that because you are deep enough?
I don't think it' profitable long term at least 100BB effective. Figaroo told me that I quickly stopped doing it.
I don't think it' profitable long term at least 100BB effective. Figaroo told me that I quickly stopped doing it.
A
AlexTheOwl
Visionary
Silver Level
What is villain's non-bluff range here? 77-AA?
You have 46% equity.
Plus some fold equity, though not a lot, as bean says.
Plus some chance he is bluffing with overcards.
81BB in the pot. 111BB in your stack. I shove. You are not delighted to be in this spot, but your equity is much too good to fold with these pot odds. And calling is only going to set you up for difficult decisions on the turn.
With a hand that has lots of potential, but is not yet a made hand, we want to see a river if possible. And by check-raising the villain has given us the gift of ensuring that we can see that river.
I think the c-bet was fine. It's true that you may fold out some of the Ax hands in the villain's range, which is not desirable, though not terrible either.
The problem with checking back the flop comes when the turn card is not a spade, not an Ace, and not a King, and the villain bets. Where are we in the hand now? Is villain bluffing or semi-bluffing because we were passive on the flop? Or do they have a made hand that will make our draw-plus-overcards hand too far behind to call profitably now, with just one card to come?
We were checking back to realise our equity, but a big chunk of our equity just vanished, and now we have created a difficult decision for ourselves.
If we c-bet the flop and the villain called instead of check-raising us:
We can confidently fold the turn if the villain bets and the turn card is not favorable, escaping somewhat cheaply. Villain has shown real strength by putting chips in on two streets.
If villain checks the turn and the turn card is not favorable, you can semi-bluff c-bet here, or check, depending on villain's tendencies.
We are calling or betting any favorable turn card.
As for balancing our checking range on the flop, this is the micros I think? Huge player pool and most of them are not paying close attention.
Pre-flop balance is easier for a micros player to track, as many have HUDs. They are often smart enough to fold their medium-strength cards to the nit's pre-flop raise.
Post-flop, memories are short.
You have 46% equity.
Plus some fold equity, though not a lot, as bean says.
Plus some chance he is bluffing with overcards.
81BB in the pot. 111BB in your stack. I shove. You are not delighted to be in this spot, but your equity is much too good to fold with these pot odds. And calling is only going to set you up for difficult decisions on the turn.
With a hand that has lots of potential, but is not yet a made hand, we want to see a river if possible. And by check-raising the villain has given us the gift of ensuring that we can see that river.
I think the c-bet was fine. It's true that you may fold out some of the Ax hands in the villain's range, which is not desirable, though not terrible either.
The problem with checking back the flop comes when the turn card is not a spade, not an Ace, and not a King, and the villain bets. Where are we in the hand now? Is villain bluffing or semi-bluffing because we were passive on the flop? Or do they have a made hand that will make our draw-plus-overcards hand too far behind to call profitably now, with just one card to come?
We were checking back to realise our equity, but a big chunk of our equity just vanished, and now we have created a difficult decision for ourselves.
If we c-bet the flop and the villain called instead of check-raising us:
We can confidently fold the turn if the villain bets and the turn card is not favorable, escaping somewhat cheaply. Villain has shown real strength by putting chips in on two streets.
If villain checks the turn and the turn card is not favorable, you can semi-bluff c-bet here, or check, depending on villain's tendencies.
We are calling or betting any favorable turn card.
As for balancing our checking range on the flop, this is the micros I think? Huge player pool and most of them are not paying close attention.
Pre-flop balance is easier for a micros player to track, as many have HUDs. They are often smart enough to fold their medium-strength cards to the nit's pre-flop raise.
Post-flop, memories are short.
Beanfacekilla
Legend
Silver Level
Yeah the game I play live is somewhat different than how it plays online. Live the 3b would be so large, I'd fold, not enough IO.
However, hero is way way deep enough to set mine here, and yes I fold if I miss. I'm not trying to win every single pot. Set mining is incredibly profitable for me, because people just don't fold. They always call when we hit. I do have a pretty good image long term though against some regs.
None of that even matters really. This is $2 NL. If this guy opened a pair, he isn't folding to 3b. I think that's fair to say. He CAN def have sets here, that's the point I was trying to make.
And @ Alex.....
If we miss, and V bets turn, we call, or raise. Read dependant. I prob raise most often. We opened the door for them to stab air, by checking back flop.
A
AlexTheOwl
Visionary
Silver Level
Beanface, I like that idea, deciding to commit no matter what the card the turn brings, if the villain bets.
The call or raise may not make sense in terms of the hero's equity against the villain's range on that street. But it makes sense in the context of the hand as a whole.
It's essentially a delayed all-in. You made the all-in decision on the flop, but you actually pull the trigger on the turn.
You risk the villain getting a card that beats you on the turn, which you might have folded out on the flop, like an AQ hitting a Q. But you gain the chance that the villain puts chips in the pot when behind, as a bluff.
And if the villain doesn't bet we have a bluffing opportunity, or we got two free cards with a drawing hand.
But that turn plan is a really crucial point to include when suggesting checking the flop!
Beanfacekilla
Legend
Silver Level
Yeah I just look at things a little differently. It's not what this V had, this time. If we check back, it is certainly more possible V will still be in there with paint or 5-5, and he then stabs the turn, we most likely raise. We put him in the gross spot, not the other way around.
If we bet the flop, then V has to react. We narrow his hands down a bunch, and now he can't really have air if he continues, and if he C/R that's just kinda gross IMO. And also like this flop is unlikely to help hero, and even though it's $2 NL, I think even these players know everyone auto c bets HU, so V may in fact think we have AK here, because I feel that weaker players often only put opponents on hands they can beat, as a justification to C/R or over play a hand.
If we bet the flop, then V has to react. We narrow his hands down a bunch, and now he can't really have air if he continues, and if he C/R that's just kinda gross IMO. And also like this flop is unlikely to help hero, and even though it's $2 NL, I think even these players know everyone auto c bets HU, so V may in fact think we have AK here, because I feel that weaker players often only put opponents on hands they can beat, as a justification to C/R or over play a hand.
A
AlexTheOwl
Visionary
Silver Level
Yeah. I remember when people at the micros didn't automatically c-bet, and higher stakes did.
Now everyone at the micros seems to quickly learn to automatically c-bet, and at higher stakes I've read that it's less automatic because everyone learned that c-bets were meaningless. Irony.
C
CHAVIKI
Rock Star
Silver Level
Some times you think you'll win every time, it does'nt work that way, you'll have a good winning streak, but suddenlly start loosing, betting more to win and still loose, so let things settle a wsile and restart playing.