I can't beat $10NL

[Irexes]

As a tourney player like myself, I wonder if you suffer from what afflicted me in my previous attempts to play ring which is to play the small pots well, but lose the big ones which make the difference, because of the massively different way that hands play for stacks in tournies as opposed to ring.

I've had quite a few goes at ring over the years and have failed despite feeling I should be winning. This time around I'm 7k hands in and doing well at 25NL. There's a lot of differences that have finally clicked but the biggest are around hands deep in stacks. The need to protect hands is far greater as well with check-raising having a role, but a different one.

The hand above I hear what you are saying about the bad players, but it reads like a tourney hand where you are looking to trap for stacks. In ring I think this can give out reverse implied odds more easily as the stacks are much deeper. Won't read too much into one hand though as it's just one hand

Re the tourney transition though for me this has been a huge change in many areas, I'm going to write something up soon comparing and contrasting the two forms, that may or may not be of use.

 

[bubbasbestbabe]

At these levels even when you beat them over the head with a shovel they still will follow you.

Case in point.

pokerstars Game #15288807798: Hold'em No Limit ($0.05/$0.10) - 2008/02/14 - 18:47:08 (ET)
Table 'Halleria IV' 6-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: Popowio ($14.35 in chips)
Seat 2: petshuky ($4.80 in chips)
Seat 3: black_cat777 ($21.05 in chips)
Seat 4: klitkat ($10 in chips)
Seat 5: blacksad777 ($7.70 in chips)
Seat 6: kaolimi ($12.05 in chips)
kaolimi: posts small blind $0.05
Popowio: posts big blind $0.10
klitkat: posts big blind $0.10
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to klitkat [Jc Qh]
petshuky: folds
black_cat777: calls $0.10
klitkat: raises $0.30 to $0.40
blacksad777: calls $0.40
kaolimi: folds
Popowio: folds
black_cat777: calls $0.30
*** FLOP *** [2c Qd Jd]
black_cat777: checks
klitkat: bets $0.40
blacksad777: raises $0.60 to $1
black_cat777: folds
klitkat: raises $1.50 to $2.50
blacksad777: calls $1.50
*** TURN *** [2c Qd Jd] [6h]
klitkat: bets $7.10 and is all-in
blacksad777: calls $4.80 and is all-in
*** RIVER *** [2c Qd Jd 6h] [3h]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
klitkat: shows [Jc Qh] (two pair, Queens and Jacks)
blacksad777: mucks hand
klitkat collected $15.20 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $15.95 | Rake $0.75
Board [2c Qd Jd 6h 3h]
Seat 1: Popowio (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: petshuky folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: black_cat777 folded on the Flop
Seat 4: klitkat showed [Jc Qh] and won ($15.20) with two pair, Queens and Jacks
Seat 5: blacksad777 (button) mucked [Qs 7d]
Seat 6: kaolimi (small blind) folded before Flop

 

[NoWuckingFurries]

Re the tourney transition though for me this has been a huge change in many areas, I'm going to write something up soon comparing and contrasting the two forms, that may or may not be of use.

Look forward to reading that...

 

[wsorbust]

Here's a check raise gone wrong:

You can take this with a grain of salt but here's what I think.

This is slightly a bit results oriented, and surely you were unlucky, but I just don't like the all-in shove on the flop into a $1 pot. I'm really conservative with my BR, but I'd feel a bit better about it if you pre-flop raised or you were ahead enough in your BR that you can afford to have people suck-out on you for such large of an amount, when knowing they're bad players and will call with 9's and a gutshot on the flop, as well as the cards dealt during online play. I realize you're trying to gain as much in the amount of time you're playing and sometimes it's a breeze for people to rip through the micros easily, but baybe this all-in style with big pairs isn't working out for you at the moment. You might need to limit your risk until you can step your way up out of the negatives.(not counting the bonus) I would suggest trying the NL Cap games. These micros are brutal. I don't know about you, but when I'm getting hammered in the micro rings, and frankly I can't stand them most of the time, I see if I can get a quality SNG game going and string a few together. The less risk with a decent reward of the sng could aid your ring game for now.

You did break TB's rule #7, but I don't believe you can ever say Never do this or Always do that in poker, as I often read in posts by Mr. ChuckTs.
I think it was a good move, just really unlucky.

Good luck in future play.

 

[WVHillbilly]

AG, I think you need to take a trip to the library (your bookshelf) and read PNL. It will help you understand the cash game better and get your BB/100 to the good side of the ledger.

 

[fleft]

I think a lot of people, no offense, have no clue how 10nl is and are trying to describe it. As someone who recently moved up from 10nl to 25nl, I get paid a lot more here at 25nl than I ever did at 10nl. I probably won the majority of my money from PF raises and taking it down on continuation bets. I found the play was mostly weak/tight, where a lot of people would call with for example an under pair all the way. This makes for a lot of weak hands showing down, but also mostly small pots.

You are exactly right. Too many people here are used to playing higher limits and think they need to play a different game to win at 10NL. Sure, you should probably play slightly tighter, but it's still poker. Every time I hear someone say that they cant play at micro levels because too many people call, I just tell them that that is a good thing! You want one or two weaker hands to call you. And, BTW, it is possible to isolate against one other player at these levels.

 

[TheDoc]

Heres my simple strategy for $10NL:

1) Play 4 tables (or more) to maximise number of hands/hr,
2) Raise with big pockets, AK, AQ
3) Call reasonable raises with small/med pockets to try and hit a set
4) Occasionally limp on button or cutoff with a speculative hand, like a suited connecter, or QJ, or Ax suited
5) Aim for a set or better before getting real enthusiastic about your hand
6) Without a hand, continuation-bet and steal if you have position and one or two opponents who check to you, if you get called give up.

Of course, the above is highly simplified, and the strategy for a particular situation may differ. But in general I stick roughly to it and it works for me. I make most money on the flopped sets where the opponent has a top pair or overpair.

 

[bustme]

After looking at your stats it is much similar to the stats when I was playing more looser than now.

Back than I was raising to much out of position.

 

[flint]

I suggest wathcing some good players play some ring games. For example the statement that stoxtrader made was good : I don't mind folding the best hand sometimes if it ensures that I am profitable in the long run.

And remember that if you fold, you get two more cards next hand...

 

[tenbob]

Hows this going for you AG ? I hope you realise that the rake on nl$10 is too high on FT in comparsion to stars, and it will have a significant effect on your win rate. Can we get a graph ?

 

[Four Dogs]

Hows this going for you AG ? I hope you realise that the rake on nl$10 is too high on FT in comparsion to stars, and it will have a significant effect on your win rate. Can we get a graph ?

10% capped at $3 to PS's 5% capped at $2. I'm not convinced that .05/.10 is mathamatically beatable at FTP.

 

[blankoblanco]

i'd imagine it's beatable, but hardly worthwhile. i've told AG to move up but he won't listen to me =P

 

[aliengenius]

Hows this going for you AG ? I hope you realise that the rake on nl$10 is too high on FT in comparsion to stars, and it will have a significant effect on your win rate. Can we get a graph ?

I didn't know this !

I am down $128.93 over all, that's 19,104 hands (3.38 bb/100). Anyway, I seem to be slowly grinding this back to even.

 

[Four Dogs]

I think it's pointless trying. You can't look at is as merely beating the 10 cent donks. You are in fact playing with a handicap that doesn't exist at PokerStars, or just at the higher limits at Full Tilt. The plain truth is that given the same limit, and the same opponents at PokerStars, you will make more money, or lose less. So why subject yourself to it.
Move Up, or Move Out.

 

[zachvac]

10% capped at $3 to PS's 5% capped at $2. I'm not convinced that .05/.10 is mathamatically beatable at Full Tilt Poker.

You sure? I'm pretty sure Stars is capped at $3 as well, but a 10% rake is simply robbery. Check on pokertracker and see what your winnings (a negative number) plus your rake paid (a positive number) is. I'm guessing it would be positive, just curious by how much.

 

[NineLions]

Hows this going for you AG ? I hope you realise that the rake on nl$10 is too high on FT in comparsion to stars, and it will have a significant effect on your win rate. Can we get a graph ?

I'm not sure of the comparison to Stars, but if I remember correctly the rake percentage at $10NL is twice what it is for $25NL, both at FT.

I could be wrong though, but I do know it's high and it's one of the reasons why I don't play $10NL at FT.

 

[Four Dogs]

Here are the rake structures at PS and FT for .05/.10. PS is on the left. I got the caps wrong, but when your talking nickles and dimes, I don't see how it matters much. Virtually every pot will be fully raked. A 20$ pot at FT will cost you $2.00. The same pot at PS will be $1.00.

 

[NoWuckingFurries]

Where it refers to number of players, that presumably is the number of players that are dealt cards :questionm

So on a 10-player table with a $60 pot, it would cost $2 rake at Full Tilt, and $3 rake at Pokerstars :questionm

 

[Four Dogs]

Where it refers to number of players, that presumably is the number of players that are dealt cards :questionm

So on a 10-player table with a $60 pot, it would cost $2 rake at Full Tilt, and $3 rake at Pokerstars :questionm

A $60 pot in .05/.10? Sure. Never seen on but yeah. 99% of all pots are less than $20. I'm just making those numbers up, but I'll bet I'm right about that.

 

[NoWuckingFurries]

A $60 pot in .05/.10? Sure. Never seen on but yeah. 99% of all pots are less than $20. I'm just making those numbers up, but I'll bet I'm right about that.

It's just that you previously said:

Virtually every pot will be fully raked.

Now you are saying:

99% of all pots are less than $20

so tbh honest I'm quite confused, as your statements appear to be contradictory... :dontknow:

but perhaps I'm missing something that's fairly obvious to the vets...

 

[Four Dogs]

Ahh.

By fully raked, I meant raked at the full 5 or 10 percent, not capped. At the higher limits, the cap has a way of softening the punch. When your at $100 table or higher, capped at $3 most rakes will be maxed out essentially lowering the rake to pot ratio to less than the full percentage. Not so at .05/.10. If the rake is 10%, that's what they take.

 

[aliengenius]

I lost six full buy-ins yesterday.

 

[aliengenius]

I know, don't bluff at $10NL, but I can't make reads at all? This guy was so out of line on every hand, this play should have worked (plus I have 10 outs twice, so it's really a semi-bluff).

fulltiltpoker Game #5475320272: Table Lonesome Cactus - $0.05/$0.10 - No Limit Hold'em - 18:52:30 ET - 2008/03/02
Seat 1: dietrijn ($18.55)
Seat 2: eDDyR55 ($2.20)
Seat 3: happyglen ($1.90)
Seat 4: PredFanRO ($3.65)
Seat 5: aliengenius ($12.60)
Seat 6: Matchbook14 ($5.15)
Seat 7: Tank820 ($6.90)
Seat 8: pigpants ($10.55)
Seat 9: BeeBoSkleebies ($13.30)
dietrijn posts the small blind of $0.05
eDDyR55 posts the big blind of $0.10
The button is in seat #9
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to aliengenius [Jh Th]
happyglen folds
PredFanRO folds
aliengenius calls $0.10
Matchbook14 folds
Tank820 folds
pigpants folds
BeeBoSkleebies raises to $0.45
dietrijn calls $0.40
eDDyR55 folds
aliengenius calls $0.35
*** FLOP *** [7h 2h 8d]
dietrijn checks
aliengenius bets $1
BeeBoSkleebies raises to $4.45
dietrijn folds
aliengenius raises to $12.15, and is all in
BeeBoSkleebies calls $7.70
aliengenius shows [Jh Th]
BeeBoSkleebies shows [9h Qh]
*** TURN *** [7h 2h 8d] A♠
*** RIVER *** [7h 2h 8d As] A♣
aliengenius shows a pair of Aces
BeeBoSkleebies shows a pair of Aces
BeeBoSkleebies wins the pot ($23.75) with a pair of Aces
aliengenius adds $10
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $25.75 | Rake $2
Board: [7h 2h 8d As Ac]
Seat 1: dietrijn (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 2: eDDyR55 (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 3: happyglen didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: PredFanRO didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: aliengenius showed [Jh Th] and lost with a pair of Aces
Seat 6: Matchbook14 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: Tank820 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 8: pigpants didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: BeeBoSkleebies (button) showed [9h Qh] and won ($23.75) with a pair of Aces

 

[aliengenius]

Ok, this guy just can't fold ATo, no pair, no draw, but what am I supposed to do, just check and give up on the hand? Position and aggression are meaningless at this level, it really is just the cards?

FullTiltPoker Game #5475184563: Table Invergordon - $0.05/$0.10 - No Limit Hold'em - 18:42:02 ET - 2008/03/02
Seat 1: ll_RickRock_ll ($2.80)
Seat 2: par547 ($18.25)
Seat 3: Rivorus ($1.15)
Seat 4: davred78 ($1.85)
Seat 5: Zoozai ($3.50)
Seat 6: aliengenius ($12.65)
Seat 7: eDDyR55 ($2.10)
Seat 8: rjvanwin ($9.40)
Seat 9: DKBing ($2.15)
eDDyR55 posts the small blind of $0.05
rjvanwin posts the big blind of $0.10
The button is in seat #6
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to aliengenius [Jd Qd]
DKBing has 15 seconds left to act
DKBing calls $0.10
ll_RickRock_ll calls $0.10
par547 folds
Rivorus folds
davred78 stands up
davred78 folds
Zoozai folds
aliengenius raises to $0.55
eDDyR55 folds
rjvanwin calls $0.45
DKBing folds
ll_RickRock_ll calls $0.45
*** FLOP *** [5s 3h Ks]
Gimmeabreakkk sits down
Gimmeabreakkk adds $4
rjvanwin checks
ll_RickRock_ll checks
aliengenius bets $1
rjvanwin calls $1
ll_RickRock_ll adds $7.75
ll_RickRock_ll folds
*** TURN *** [5s 3h Ks] [9d]
Zoozai stands up
rjvanwin checks
aliengenius bets $2.20
rjvanwin calls $2.20
*** RIVER *** [5s 3h Ks 9d] [Ah]
rjvanwin checks
tuck537 sits down
aliengenius has 15 seconds left to act
aliengenius bets $5
rjvanwin calls $5
*** SHOW DOWN ***
aliengenius shows [Jd Qd] Ace King high
rjvanwin shows [As Ts] a pair of Aces
rjvanwin wins the pot ($16.40) with a pair of Aces
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $18.20 | Rake $1.80
Board: [5s 3h Ks 9d Ah]
Seat 1: ll_RickRock_ll folded on the Flop
Seat 2: par547 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: Rivorus didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: davred78 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: Zoozai didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: aliengenius (button) showed [Jd Qd] and lost with Ace King high
Seat 7: eDDyR55 (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 8: rjvanwin (big blind) showed [As Ts] and won ($16.40) with a pair of Aces
Seat 9: DKBing folded before the Flop

 

[aliengenius]

tripp was shoving every single hand, I tried to re-isolate, but the guy wakes up with the MONSTER hand A8o !! Of course they both spike their eight.

FullTiltPoker Game #5472841218: Table Railbirds.com - $0.05/$0.10 - No Limit Hold'em - 15:47:55 ET - 2008/03/02
Seat 1: trippddogg ($7.30)
Seat 2: aliengenius ($12.85)
Seat 3: luvs2poop ($8.35)
Seat 4: kgyorgy22 ($4.90)
Seat 6: William Rutt ($0.55)
Seat 7: IM-the-M4N ($8.45)
Seat 8: WildRide ($3.60)
Seat 9: jbrfan ($3.40)
kgyorgy22 posts the small blind of $0.05
William Rutt posts the big blind of $0.10
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to aliengenius [6s 6d]
IM-the-M4N has 15 seconds left to act
IM-the-M4N folds
WildRide folds
jbrfan calls $0.10
trippddogg calls $0.10
aliengenius calls $0.10
luvs2poop folds
kgyorgy22 folds
William Rutt raises to $0.55, and is all in
jbrfan calls $0.45
trippddogg raises to $2.35
aliengenius raises to $12.85, and is all in
jbrfan folds
trippddogg calls $4.95, and is all in
aliengenius shows [6s 6d]
William Rutt shows [Ah 8c]
trippddogg shows [8d 5s]
Uncalled bet of $5.55 returned to aliengenius
*** FLOP *** [2s Th 8h]
*** TURN *** [2s Th 8h] [Jd]
*** RIVER *** [2s Th 8h Jd] [Kh]
aliengenius shows a pair of Sixes
trippddogg shows a pair of Eights
trippddogg wins the side pot ($12.15) with a pair of Eights
William Rutt shows a pair of Eights
William Rutt wins the main pot ($2.05) with a pair of Eights
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $15.75 Main pot $2.25. Side pot $13.50. | Rake $1.55
Board: [2s Th 8h Jd Kh]
Seat 1: trippddogg showed [8d 5s] and won ($12.15) with a pair of Eights
Seat 2: aliengenius showed [6s 6d] and lost with a pair of Sixes
Seat 3: luvs2poop (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: kgyorgy22 (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 6: William Rutt (big blind) showed [Ah 8c] and won ($2.05) with a pair of Eights
Seat 7: IM-the-M4N didn't bet (folded)
Seat 8: WildRide didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: jbrfan folded before the Flop