I can't beat $10NL

[NineLions]

ohhhhh, it's pretty clear now that the problem is obviously that the ft micros are full of nits bonus clearing at the moment.

I think that's part of it.

The other thing is that $10NL is the cheapest ring game at Tilt. Meaning there's more bad players at that level that can't play 0.01/0.02 like at Stars, but on the other hand someone depositing $50 has to start at $10NL and just play like a shortstacked nit.

 

[blankoblanco]

move up to where they respect your raises !

 

[Four Dogs]

My last 1000 at Full Tilt $10 & $25

 

[Four Dogs]

move up to where they respect your raises !

When I'm raising with AA-QQ, I don't want respect.

 

[aliengenius]

Ok, did well in my second session playing w the full $10 (100bbs) buy in.

Anyway, I am hearing some conflicting advice here:

Should we be set mining w/ deep stacks (nit type play), or calling down light with middle pair tk type hands?

In TB's archive thread he says to bet enough to pot commit with AA or KK, but also that you should fold AA on a KK2 board?

I developed kind of a style where I play big hands aggressively preflop, then somewhat passive post flop (kind of a pot size control style) depending on number and nature of opponents.

I have been playing big aces and suited broadway passively preflop in early position, aggressively late sometimes, then aggressive post flop when I hit, but fairly ready to check fold a miss.

Add in passive preflop set mining with small pairs.

Mix in some late position aggression with hands like suited connectors, where I will c-bet a miss also vs. one or two opponents.

I have also been limping w suited aces late in multiway (2+ limpers) pots.

I feel like a "tournament aggressive" style is giving up too much as far as implied odds.

Definite nit factor, as I noted, many tables were TAG, sans fish, so I left.

 

[ChuckTs]

Pot control is a huge part of deepstacked play - something that you rarely need to think about when playing tourneys, but it's something that's crucial to ring play. I learned the hard way

Should we be set mining w/ deep stacks (nit type play), or calling down light with middle pair tk type hands?

Well that depends on the situation, but with deep stacks it's all about implied odds. I'm not sure how you're relating set mining with calling down light here, but in general the rule is "big hands, big pots; small hands, small pots".

"Big" and "small" are relative though. Like vs a nit I don't want to be committing my whole stack with AA postflop unless I'm SURE I'm ahead. Vs a maniac I'll happily stack with TPTK a lot of the time since I know he'll look me up light and that I'm most probably way ahead of his range anyways.

In TB's archive thread he says to bet enough to pot commit with AA or KK, but also that you should fold AA on a KK2 board?

Preflop we want to commit as much as possible, ie so that we don't give off reverse implied odds. KK2 flop ex would be situational again, but unless we're really committed to the pot that's a spot I don't want to put too much money in.

I developed kind of a style where I play big hands aggressively preflop, then somewhat passive post flop (kind of a pot size control style) depending on number and nature of opponents.

Yep, that's good. Don't give off reverse implied odds.

I have been playing big aces and suited broadway passively preflop in early position, aggressively late sometimes, then aggressive post flop when I hit, but fairly ready to check fold a miss.

Yep, good.

Add in passive preflop set mining with small pairs.

VERY important - set mining will net you most of your profit imo.

Mix in some late position aggression with hands like suited connectors, where I will c-bet a miss also vs. one or two opponents.

I'm not sure how much respect you'll get at 10nl (started at 25nl myself), but that's something that's good, but not necessary at the small stakes. I'm finding it's really only needed at 100nl to balance your play.

I have also been limping w suited aces late in multiway (2+ limpers) pots.

I feel like a "tournament aggressive" style is giving up too much as far as implied odds.

This is exactly what I used to do wrong, and it's most probably the biggest change from tourneys to rings - giving off implied odds.

Definite nit factor, as I noted, many tables were TAG, sans fish, so I left.

I think I'm going to write an expansion to Liam's article because there are a few things that could be elaborated on if enough people are interested.

 

[NoWuckingFurries]

I think I'm going to write an expansion to Liam's article because there are a few things that could be elaborated on if enough people are interested.

I'm interested

 

[OzExorcist]

I'm interested

x 2

 

[Aleeki]

Im glad im not the only one having trouble with these stakes at Full Tilt etc.

Looking at AG's graph makes me feel a little better (in a funny way) cos thats exactly what my graph is looking like even though I have been trying to play very nit like.

I just seem to be coming up against other hands that either chase to hit and do or are better from the word go and when I hit it gets me in more trouble.

I would love to hear whether the whole set mining, AA-10 10 only strategy would work? Although looking at my 'luck hitting sets' report, i'm not getting my fair share there either at the moment lol.

 

[jaketrevvor]

Imo people are alienating 10nl far too much from "normal" poker. Zach knows exactly what's up:

I think a lot of people, no offense, have no clue how 10nl is and are trying to describe it. As someone who recently moved up from 10nl to 25nl, I get paid a lot more here at 25nl than I ever did at 10nl. I probably won the majority of my money from PF raises and taking it down on continuation bets. I found the play was mostly weak/tight, where a lot of people would call with for example an under pair all the way. This makes for a lot of weak hands showing down, but also mostly small pots.

 

[aliengenius]

Final graph for today: 1,385 hands (200 FTPs):




Would have been a bit more, but I missed a 15 out combo draw (flush and straight)-- I semi-bluffed it when checked to by the preflop raiser and he called w QQ despite the ace on the flop and a player to act behind him.

I would love to read more ring game strategy articles by some of our resident wizards. Perhaps I should start to visit the ring game analysis sub-forum too .

 

[OzExorcist]

It sounds like there's some pretty serious play differences at $10NL between Stars and Full Tilt though - could be the explanation?

(Last comment @ jaketrevor. Woo, monniez! @ AG )

 

[tenbob]

Im a bit shocked that that article is being semi widely refered to ever since i wrote it. It really and in all seriousness something that I threw together in 10 minutes sitting bored one evening. Looking at it again the majority of the concepts are good, but I would agree that some of them need a little refinment. It was something that i had in my mind to do for a bit, and i like keeping these things as simple as possible. IE Bet your hands, get in as much pre-flop as possible, and all these things are very applicaple. I always intended to do a follow up to it but forgot.

Anyway im off to play a bit on nl$10 like a nit on stars to see if it still works

 

[dj11]

In an effort to join the crowd here, and maybe not donk off a big chunk, I sat at a $25 table for 91 hands. Broke dead even.

I did however clear another 50 cents toward nothing...........

As a reformed FRW, and semi-OK tourney player, I too want the faster winnings now, and possibly the best thing about todays session was that I didn't donk off that big chunk, and felt somewhat comfortable at the table.

My graph, which I wont bore you with shows that at one point I was down $8 , at another I was up $3.

My PT3 stats show I was VP$IP higher than my FT stats. This still confuses the hell out of me.

 

[Emperor IX]

Imo people are alienating 10nl far too much from "normal" poker. Zach knows exactly what's up:

Not really, at these limits implied odds are so huge on just about any decent hand (even tptk often) that you're not playing to steal small pots. Read any 10nl comments by respected posters and they all say the same thing: It's all about the big pots. 10nl is a level to make money, not play creative poker.

 

[jaketrevvor]

Not really, at these limits implied odds are so huge on just about any decent hand (even tptk often) that you're not playing to steal small pots. Read any 10nl comments by respected posters and they all say the same thing: It's all about the big pots. 10nl is a level to make money, not play creative poker.

I didn't say that there were no differences I just thought people were exaggerating these differences. What jay said could be completely true - ft might just be a lot different from stars as it has no lower levels than 10nl so all the shiiiite players who don't really know the game past the basic rules play there.

 

[4Aces]

Add me to the list of, "losing money at fulltilt whilst trying to clear the bonus". lol
I lost $50 playing 5c10c PLO. It was sick though. I won big at first (PLO players at fulltilt are TERRIBLE), i got up to $80.
Then came the beats, I'm not even gonna say what type of beats. You know when you CONSTANTLY put your money in with the NUTS and end up losing. Oh well back to stars and F**K YOU FULLTILT!!!!!!!

 

[jaketrevvor]

You know when you CONSTANTLY put your money in with the NUTS and end up losing.

God you're so lucky. You can totally tick that one off on the the scavenger hunt list.

 

[SolidSn@ke]

I started low at the no limit tables before and started like everyone from freerolls. ive played poker for 4 years now. I was on my game for 2 months then ended my run at the $1000 no limit tables last year and lost with an ace high flush to a full house which he hit both runners when I slow played it. What I realized that improved my game is to stop playing low limit tables as soon as possible, when Id play the higher stakes Id keep 20%-40% at the table and play one at a time analysing everyone. keep in ind you can always watch the table a while before you start. Patience is the key, when I play at smaller stakes I risk getting to anxious to win and I seem to throw away my antes more often which is bad. Always go in raising with each hand and the rest will fall into place. Youll see yourself going up quick once you really concentrate on each hand and fold when in doubt preflop.

 

[aliengenius]

God you're so lucky. You can totally tick that one off on the the scavenger hunt list.

Got that one today!

I started low at the no limit tables before and started like everyone from freerolls. ive played poker for 4 years now. I was on my game for 2 months then ended my run at the $1000 no limit tables last year and lost with an ace high flush to a full house which he hit both runners when I slow played it. What I realized that improved my game is to stop playing low limit tables as soon as possible, when Id play the higher stakes Id keep 20%-40% at the table and play one at a time analysing everyone. keep in ind you can always watch the table a while before you start. Patience is the key, when I play at smaller stakes I risk getting to anxious to win and I seem to throw away my antes more often which is bad. Always go in raising with each hand and the rest will fall into place. Youll see yourself going up quick once you really concentrate on each hand and fold when in doubt preflop.

Good bankroll management there ...

Anyway, here is today so far: 1,077 hands (150FTPs), all at full buy-in:



Kind of choppy now that I look at it on a graph. At least I was in the black all the way...
Perhaps I'm getting the hang of this cash game thing again?
Anyway, time for some lunch, then a couple hundred more hands a bit later.

 

[SubT33]

Pot control is a huge part of deepstacked play - something that you rarely need to think about when playing tourneys, but it's something that's crucial to ring play...

Chuck, could you elaborate on how this relates to 10nl?

 

[aliengenius]

Chuck, could you elaborate on how this relates to 10nl?

Well, even in $10NL you can still have 100bb deep stacks. So the actual buy-in level doesn't really matter (theoretically).

Update: gave about $5 back, ended the day +18.10 over 1,471 hands (200+ FTPs). I have cleared half of the $75 FT bonus, so it has only cost me $41.25 to clear $37.50 . Anyway, at least I seem to be going in the right direction.

 

[wsorbust]

It looks like you're in the swing of things now.
I just took a look at Tenbob's thread, and it is basically what I've been doing and having a fairly successful time at 10NL. The only problem I see often, is someone calling a preflop raise with Ace and weak kicker and catching two pair against something like Ak/AQ/AJ, then calling through. They can't fold if they pair their ace on the board. It should be an advantage, but I see myself getting caught more times than not with better hands preflop, and thinking how can you call my preflop raise with that when I'm basically playing fairly tight?! They weren't even sooted.

 

[aliengenius]

I actually folded QQ preflop today:

fulltiltpoker Game #5160269449: Table Snow Trail - $0.05/$0.10 - No Limit Hold'em - 15:57:09 ET - 2008/02/07
Seat 1: GreenhouseOne ($0.70)
Seat 2: Lars2007 ($2.85)
Seat 3: LongliveEnkil ($17.40)
Seat 4: Stoners3 ($1.55)
Seat 5: Mankan ($10.65)
Seat 6: Baureo ($10.05)
Seat 7: StraightTN ($4)
Seat 8: aliengenius ($10.30)
Seat 9: airzor ($14.10)
airzor posts the small blind of $0.05
GreenhouseOne posts the big blind of $0.10
The button is in seat #8
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to aliengenius [Qd] [Qc]
Lars2007 calls $0.10
LongliveEnkil folds
Stoners3 calls $0.10
Mankan folds
Baureo folds
StraightTN folds
aliengenius raises to $0.55
airzor raises to $14.10, and is all in
GreenhouseOne folds
Lars2007 folds
Stoners3 folds
aliengenius has 15 seconds left to act
aliengenius: wow
aliengenius is sitting out
aliengenius has timed out
aliengenius folds
Uncalled bet of $13.55 returned to airzor
airzor mucks
aliengenius has returned
airzor wins the pot ($1.40)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $1.40 | Rake $0
Seat 1: GreenhouseOne (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 2: Lars2007 folded before the Flop
Seat 3: LongliveEnkil didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: Stoners3 folded before the Flop
Seat 5: Mankan didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: Baureo didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: StraightTN didn't bet (folded)
Seat 8: aliengenius (button) folded before the Flop
Seat 9: airzor (small blind) collected ($1.40), mucked

The guy was 16.98/5.66/1.38--- good fold or was it JJ or AK?

 

[jaketrevvor]

hmmm, the 5.66 looks scary to me, I guess I could find a fold here with much pain involved on the premise that we wait for a better spot..... then again if we take a step back it does seem fairly mental not to stack with QQ pf at 10nl. Toughie though.