STL420
Rising Star
Silver Level
Yesterday I was in a $1.10 $600.00 GTD MTT tournament, this exact situation came up. My opponent under the gun min-raised 2000 chips, then a flat by my another opponent who was next to act; I flatted with Kh, 3h in cut off and everyone else folded and BB checked. I put my first opponent UTG with AA the other opponent I was not for sure.
Flop came Kd, 3c, Js, UTG bet pot 8000 chips, the next opponent re-raised all in, this, since I did not put the second opponent on a hand I was wondering about a bigger two pair; I went all in BB flolded and UTG called.
UTG showed As, AD, my other opponent showed Qc, 10s; turn was 5h and the river was a 7c. I was the chip leader with over 100K and finished 7th for $25.00 and it was this hand helped finish deep in this tournament. I entered the hand cheap and tripled up and once I had two pair on the flop where was I going then?
Flop came Kd, 3c, Js, UTG bet pot 8000 chips, the next opponent re-raised all in, this, since I did not put the second opponent on a hand I was wondering about a bigger two pair; I went all in BB flolded and UTG called.
UTG showed As, AD, my other opponent showed Qc, 10s; turn was 5h and the river was a 7c. I was the chip leader with over 100K and finished 7th for $25.00 and it was this hand helped finish deep in this tournament. I entered the hand cheap and tripled up and once I had two pair on the flop where was I going then?
B
BluffYou123
Back in the Game
Silver Level
Just because you make a horrible call with an often dominated hand and get really lucky doesn't make it a good play!
STL420
Rising Star
Silver Level
When I understand what my opponents hole cards are by their bets and know what starting hand I need to beat them and then hit my flop, I just have an understanding on how to beat them no more no less.
If my opponent raises three big blinds I am not even that hand or any others with K3 suited with that open raise of three big blinds. Since I have observed many of my opponents min-raise with AA, KK, etc... very often and I have many cheap chances to take down big pots against opponents that will not lay those big hands down and willingly hand me their chips.
I just have a humanistic approach, it is just how I see the game; just as the hard work you have put into your game to become successful. I play limit poker, this is the purist form of poker that I have found and it translates well to no-limit also.
If my opponent raises three big blinds I am not even that hand or any others with K3 suited with that open raise of three big blinds. Since I have observed many of my opponents min-raise with AA, KK, etc... very often and I have many cheap chances to take down big pots against opponents that will not lay those big hands down and willingly hand me their chips.
I just have a humanistic approach, it is just how I see the game; just as the hard work you have put into your game to become successful. I play limit poker, this is the purist form of poker that I have found and it translates well to no-limit also.
ovitoo
Legend
Bronze Level
This is the kind of strategy that makes min raising hands like AA KK QQ AK profitable. So thank you :wink:
N
Nooneinparticular
Rock Star
Silver Level
More amusing is him reading me for AA/KK etc with a min raise......
Have you not heard of tricky barst**ds like me who 3x EVERYTHING so you can't read us?
Saying that, not sure its even tricky, but standard now........
I love nothing more than a player who varies their bet size depending on their hand strength.
N
Nooneinparticular
Rock Star
Silver Level
Do you think you are a massive favorite to win here?
You are just under 60% to win in the exact circumstance you describe.
Take into account the times you have walked into KK, JJ, and maybe 33 from the other player, or KJ, then this is a 50/50 call at best.
It is a very dangerous thing to do for you're tourny life.
Interesting thing is though that the Q10 is actually 23.5% while the aces are only 17%..........
ovitoo
Legend
Bronze Level
This is good. Even better when you're 2.2x-2.5x everything. 3xing everything can get expensive and commit you pretty easily. Just my opinion, and yea you got it right by opening the same consistently.
Last edited:
STL420
Rising Star
Silver Level
I believe I was the only one in the hand at the time all the money was in that had the best hand and I knew this why would I fold the best hand; my opponents had to hit to beat me. The way the hand played out after the flop was the way it was supposed to happen. The understanding of my opponents lets me have great timing, also it lets me know when I am beat.
However, everyone has their own approach and play any two cards the way they see best. I work very hard on my approach to poker, just like anyone else playing the game. I just have a simple approach that goes against the grain to others playing styles. I do however, respect your comment on your thinking of my play.
However, everyone has their own approach and play any two cards the way they see best. I work very hard on my approach to poker, just like anyone else playing the game. I just have a simple approach that goes against the grain to others playing styles. I do however, respect your comment on your thinking of my play.
gus201
Rock Star
Silver Level
Sounds to me STL that you are playing the players individually , in individual situations at the table . Understanding how the player acts (preflop) and you are able to put him on a hand . Understanding how this player will react (on the flop ) and that this player will Not lay down AA because he can not put you on 2 pair there . If your flush was to come or you get 2 hearts on the flop you now have to figure what your willing to pay to continue on if you CHOOSE to .
Sounds to me like a good strategy . So you triple up here and you fold 5 more times on the flop for min bets . How many times do you have to hit to come out even here ?
Im sure your not calling 3x bb raises with these hands . But it sure seems to me that you have done your home work on reading and understanding players .
I also dont think you want to going against this guy sharing cards with him because you are losing your outs to hit and take down the pot here in these few instances . Id like to thank you for post this with such a great insight on the very advance understanding here .
Thank agian from some of us that may want to learn more
gus201
Sounds to me like a good strategy . So you triple up here and you fold 5 more times on the flop for min bets . How many times do you have to hit to come out even here ?
Im sure your not calling 3x bb raises with these hands . But it sure seems to me that you have done your home work on reading and understanding players .
I also dont think you want to going against this guy sharing cards with him because you are losing your outs to hit and take down the pot here in these few instances . Id like to thank you for post this with such a great insight on the very advance understanding here .
Thank agian from some of us that may want to learn more
gus201
gus201
Rock Star
Silver Level
A thought for the day :
What really is meant by limping a big pocket pair ?
Was this actually meant at a certain part of the game ?
Was it meant in a certain situation ?
Could this statement been miss understood a bit ?
Like a fish story by the time the word gets out to the rest of the city you went from catching a 10 pound fish to catching a 30 pound fish .
The only way we will ever know is to ask the person that first made that statement .
What really is meant by limping a big pocket pair ?
Was this actually meant at a certain part of the game ?
Was it meant in a certain situation ?
Could this statement been miss understood a bit ?
Like a fish story by the time the word gets out to the rest of the city you went from catching a 10 pound fish to catching a 30 pound fish .
The only way we will ever know is to ask the person that first made that statement .
ovitoo
Legend
Bronze Level
If you're really interested in what originally happened, I raised 3.3x(pot) w/ JJ from ep and then folded to a rr. So, no...no 30lb'er
gus201
Rock Star
Silver Level
Replying here to you ovitoo
"Could this statement been miss understood a bit ?
I'm misunderstanding your question. "
what I meant was the very first person to have made that statement if it was years ago what that person meant .
I have found that as years go by some statements are a bit misunderstood and the true reason or meaning may be altered a bit . not because some one did this purposely but things get just misunderstood .
gus201
"Could this statement been miss understood a bit ?
I'm misunderstanding your question. "
what I meant was the very first person to have made that statement if it was years ago what that person meant .
I have found that as years go by some statements are a bit misunderstood and the true reason or meaning may be altered a bit . not because some one did this purposely but things get just misunderstood .
gus201
N
Nooneinparticular
Rock Star
Silver Level
I generally 2 or 3x everything as I play hyper turbo SNG's. I tend to switch them around randomly, with an occasional flat call just to keep it even more confusing.
Yes I get 2.2 to 2.5 is cheaper than 3x, but in the games I play when it's about stealing a few pots I find 2 or 3 does just as well. Who I'm doing it against makes a difference as well. If they are tight, 2x gets it done, if they are looser then 3x gets it done better.
Im still laughing at the guy who, from a stack of 470 chips at 15/30 bet, 7x pre UTG. Priceless........
N
Nooneinparticular
Rock Star
Silver Level
But knowing your opponents need to hit to beat still means you lose 40% of the time. You are replying on the AA not being able to fold here. Good players in this situation do not push, they reraise,a dn get away from one pair hands, even overpairs. That's the difference between good players and average ones.
Don't get me wrong, I love to play 910s against tight pre raisers as lots of them can't get away from their overpair hands. As long you know you need to hit 2 pair or straight/flush type hands, and that hitting top pair isn't good enough, you can do this, but it is very very risky because of the fact you lose 40% of the time.
Why not see another card as cheaply as possible and if the turn isn't scary, then get it all in. You should find you lose a lot less of the time, and the player type you're doing this against will still ship it all in with one single overpair...
Fishing for 2 pair/straight/flush hands can be profitable, but it is dangerous, and relies on people stacking off to you. So, once you play good players at higher stakes, it won't work so much!
enjoy
dj11
Legend
Silver Level
Min raising is a tool. It has places where it is effective, and places where it isn't.
There seems to be 2 camps of players;
Those who raise a consistent size, and
those who's raises change depending on circumstances.
Not sure which camp is more successful, I try to vary my raises, based on my perception that a raise is a statement as ofter as it is a value bet. The statement would be along the lines of "I've got a situation I am willing to engage with! Do you?". Depending on the tableful of villains, the size of my statement might vary.
Do not assume I do not value bet because I have offered an alternate view. They are both 'tools' I use.
There seems to be 2 camps of players;
Those who raise a consistent size, and
those who's raises change depending on circumstances.
Not sure which camp is more successful, I try to vary my raises, based on my perception that a raise is a statement as ofter as it is a value bet. The statement would be along the lines of "I've got a situation I am willing to engage with! Do you?". Depending on the tableful of villains, the size of my statement might vary.
Do not assume I do not value bet because I have offered an alternate view. They are both 'tools' I use.
STL420
Rising Star
Silver Level
I agree with you on your post (Nooneinparticular), at any time I choose to enter a hand there is a reason I entered and what I need to beat my opponents along with a price I am willing to pay at each street. I also have to understand what my opponent is holding and also if my opponent or opponents will pay me off when I hit my hand.
Ax, Kx, Qx suited, we have to have self control and not change the reason we got into the hand for example, when the A, K, Q, hit the flop those cards are danger cards and for me the hand is over at that point, this keeps me from chasing the kicker to hit two pair.
At the point in that tournament I could have folded to the money but it happens I was looking for a spot to double up and the hand presented itself. If I got sucked out on then it is on me however, I was not worried about losing at this point because I hit one of my options of my hand so, the risk reward was worth it for me because I was looking to get a chip stack to win the tournament and not just to make the money. However, at a different spot in the tournament the situation would have been different for example, early in the tournament I would not have made this play because I need to stay in the tournament to win and could not win the tournament or run deep making a risky play at that particular time in a tournament. Thank you for your comments it is nice to discuss poker with others and get their ideas about the game.
Ax, Kx, Qx suited, we have to have self control and not change the reason we got into the hand for example, when the A, K, Q, hit the flop those cards are danger cards and for me the hand is over at that point, this keeps me from chasing the kicker to hit two pair.
At the point in that tournament I could have folded to the money but it happens I was looking for a spot to double up and the hand presented itself. If I got sucked out on then it is on me however, I was not worried about losing at this point because I hit one of my options of my hand so, the risk reward was worth it for me because I was looking to get a chip stack to win the tournament and not just to make the money. However, at a different spot in the tournament the situation would have been different for example, early in the tournament I would not have made this play because I need to stay in the tournament to win and could not win the tournament or run deep making a risky play at that particular time in a tournament. Thank you for your comments it is nice to discuss poker with others and get their ideas about the game.
Last edited:
darkassassin89
Legend
Silver Level
X3 every position. Cbet. Win. Repeat until there is someone playing back at you. Then analyze. Changing your betting style will result in players noticing you game change and most of the time fold or play back at you harder, depending on what you are looking to achieve depends on the players. But all in all stay consists so no one will ever know what u are playing.
ovitoo
Legend
Bronze Level
Lol took it from my mouth. I'll try to bring it back:
3x is fine til 25/50 blinds
2.2-2.5x after and throughout.
^^This is the winning argument and a great one at that.
ovitoo
Legend
Bronze Level
Idk what "that statement" is?
ovitoo
Legend
Bronze Level
:rofl: It was spam when page 2 began.