Open Min Raise...Good or Bad??

[buster999]

I still don't agree with min raising JJ with 20BB. Does not play well post flop especially out of position and multiple opponents. How many flatters do you want. Your going to get at least 2 with a min raise. Overcards will fall on the flop close to 60% of the time and if there holding at least 2 of the over cards you will be out flopped over 30% of time. The only reason I like the min raise for this hand so you can Jam a raise but your still going to lose like 40% of the time. I am serious in my post. Just a difference in opinion, may be wrong but thats what I think.
anyways heres a Funny video while were talking about JJ.

 

[duggs]

I still don't agree with min raising JJ with 20BB. Does not play well post flop especially out of position and multiple opponents. How many flatters do you want. Your going to get at least 2 with a min raise. Overcards will fall on the flop close to 60% of the time and if there holding at least 2 of the over cards you will be out flopped over 30% of time. The only reason I like the min raise for this hand so you can Jam a raise but your still going to lose like 40% of the time. I am serious in my post. Just a difference in opinion, may be wrong but thats what I think.
anyways heres a Funny video while were talking about JJ.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kP9CBtSW0kA

JJ plays amazing post flop,.
i am happy with plenty of flatters,
JJs equity v ranges that flat a 20bb open are so weak.
3xing your value hands and min raising everything else is super exploitable.

To be perfectly honest the reasons not to open 3x with 20bb apply to our entire range, this is because we shouldnt be raising according to hand strength since its super exploitable

 

[kanselau]

havent read all the posts so apolagies if this has already been said
I adjust the open raise to the the stage of the tornament , early in the game i will open for 3-5 times bb depending on the oponents on the table and the type of tornament. if i have some major fish on the table or if its a rebuy i will open bigger , in the later stages of the tornament , most of the fish are gone , and players tend to tighten up their preflop game( apart from some of the short stacks who are pushing wide and maybe some of the bigger stacks might call wide ).
more importanly though i will adjust the open raise towards the players yet to act if they are defending their blinds with 2x raise and will fold to 3x i will choose the bigger raise when im stealing blinds ( mostly late in torney)
a good poker player will adjust their play with regards to table dynamics and their reads , to make ev+ decisions so there is no simple answer of witch raise is better IT DEPENDS ON THE SITUATION.

 

[Cookie65]

Personally I min raise from the button in cash with close to my entire range, depending on dynamics o/c. It's a done thing among good regs nowadays as post flop play gets more important, I.e keeping pots smaller pre with a lot wider range. When I played mtts and on occasion nowadays,I open for 3x for the first 2 levels and then 2.5x there after, until It gets to a stage were I'm 2.2x with close to shoving stack sizes...

I like min raising from the button too sometimes regardless of the hand. I think it paints a picture of a very strong hand, and if the situation allows one can continuous bluff. Why not tell the story?!

 

[kanselau]

because nobody really belives that you wake up with a strong hand on the btn often unless your like rock. So your story only works if you do it rarely.
everybody knows that the btn is a steal pos and it is probably the hardest position to steal from with a min raise any good player will look you up with anything close to a reasnable hand , furthermore a good player will 3 bet you wide if your doing it often , i like to open min early 2.5 mid 3 late. min raising is ok sometimes if sb and bb are really tight and will fold often or when we are using it for the simple fact that we will have position through out the hand and are confident with post flop play. (would def not recomend for a beginer).

 

[BluffYou123]

because nobody really belives that you wake up with a strong hand on the btn often unless your like rock. So your story only works if you do it rarely.
everybody knows that the btn is a steal pos and it is probably the hardest position to steal from with a min raise any good player will look you up with anything close to a reasnable hand , furthermore a good player will 3 bet you wide if your doing it often , i like to open min early 2.5 mid 3 late. min raising is ok sometimes if sb and bb are really tight and will fold often or when we are using it for the simple fact that we will have position through out the hand and are confident with post flop play. (would def not recomend for a beginer).

I don't like different raise sizes from different positions but if I was to do them my EP raises would be bigger, not the other way around.

 

[youregoodmate]

I cant believe this thread is still going.. it was wrapped up on the first page.

 

[ovitoo]

I cant believe this thread is still going.. it was wrapped up on the first page.

+1 if they gave us the ability to lock our own threads I'd have done it.

 

[ddeely1]

I think 2.1-2.3x is the new 3x but your going to see flops more often so it requires better post flop skills. From early position a 3x raise is still good since you are going to be oop the whole hand. If you do a min+ raise, expect to play more postflop

 

[deeshark420]

raising isnt bad

raising is a must if you dont all the people who play the crap hands get to chase for free not in my game.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Thanks to duggs for bringing some knowledge in here.

Also, SPR. That is all.

 

[Daniel72]

I observed recently a very successful player ("uaredead lol"), he is always on top of the yearly and monthly tournament leader boards on pokerstars, and he always minraises - i think he knows what he does

 

[duggs]

Also, SPR. That is all.

This +10000, SPR is a hugely overlooked concept in tournaments

 

[A2345Razz]

Opening more than 2.4-2.5 with only 20bb, yeah that is usually pretty wrong.

The smaller openings allow for stealing with less risk and a balanced range, plus POT CONTROL which is very important as you move well under 60BB.

 

[duggs]

if you arent minraising at 20bb then you are never minraising

 

[pierceisgod]

I make my raises min raises when im semi-short stacked to induce a reraise than I could shove and most likely be called.
If you have like 20 big blinds you can even flat with jacks if the table is way too aggressive for you to even need to bet than you can raise or flat depending on how you feel.

 

[Nooneinparticular]

I havent read the whole thread, but surely one thing which hasnt been discussed it the OP seems to raise differently with different hands?

So you min raise (or 2.1) with JJ but 3x with say AQo? really?
Personally I like to raise 2x, 3x, 2.5x, 4x, almost randomly, doing each of them sometimes with the same hand. i.e., if that isn't clear, with JJ I will bet 2x, or 2.5x, 3x and 4x randomly. I do the same with A9s, 910s and so on if I want to play a hand.
Try reading my range.........

To reiterate this, just been in a SNG where UTG flat calls for 30, I have 77, about to raise to 4* when the alarms bells went off! I flat, it comes down AK2, checked round, comes another 2, checked round, river comes 7. Happy days.....

Or is it. Pot is 132 I think (has antes), UTG bets 180 into the 132. I think for a moment, and although I should be ahead, the series of play from UTG just stinks.

Who pushes, and who flat calls here?

 

[Worak]

So you're saying I was right. Min raises are bad.

Ha...I'm done. 35 chips is pretty nit picky

edit: You're right if I see you put 435 instead of 400, its going to change my decision on wether or not to play the hand.

Here you're contradicting yourself a bit aren't you ?

That's exactly one of the major points not to minraise but to raise 2.1-2.5x.

If 400 is the min-raise (BB 200) and you achieve the same by raising to 435 as when raising to 600 instead why risk 165 more ?

 

[BlueNowhere]

So you min raise (or 2.1) with JJ but 3x with say AQo? really?Personally I like to raise 2x, 3x, 2.5x, 4x, almost randomly, doing each of them sometimes with the same hand. i.e., if that isn't clear, with JJ I will bet 2x, or 2.5x, 3x and 4x randomly. I do the same with A9s, 910s and so on if I want to play a hand.
Try reading my range.........

Yea... I really wouldn't do this in tourneys, or cash for that matter.

 

[ovitoo]

I havent read the whole thread, but surely one thing which hasnt been discussed it the OP seems to raise differently with different hands?

So you min raise (or 2.1) with JJ but 3x with say AQo? really?
Personally I like to raise 2x, 3x, 2.5x, 4x, almost randomly, doing each of them sometimes with the same hand. i.e., if that isn't clear, with JJ I will bet 2x, or 2.5x, 3x and 4x randomly. I do the same with A9s, 910s and so on if I want to play a hand.
Try reading my range.........

To reiterate this, just been in a SNG where UTG flat calls for 30, I have 77, about to raise to 4* when the alarms bells went off! I flat, it comes down AK2, checked round, comes another 2, checked round, river comes 7. Happy days.....

Or is it. Pot is 132 I think (has antes), UTG bets 180 into the 132. I think for a moment, and although I should be ahead, the series of play from UTG just stinks.

Who pushes, and who flat calls here?

I didnt read your whole post (as you didnt the thread). Your opening statement is 100% false. I might change bet sizing based on position, not hand strength.

Here you're contradicting yourself a bit aren't you ?

That's exactly one of the major points not to minraise but to raise 2.1-2.5x.

If 400 is the min-raise (BB 200) and you achieve the same by raising to 435 as when raising to 600 instead why risk 165 more ?

Good point. The same point was made a month ago when I originally posted this. It was a leak that has been since plugged.

 

[NeverEnough]

I don't like to min raise b/c most folks will usually call unless the blinds are sky high then you get busted by someone with a crap hand b/c you let them in cheap.
I'll win a small pot over losing a big one.

 

[BlueNowhere]

I don't like to min raise b/c most folks will usually call unless the blinds are sky high then you get busted by someone with a crap hand b/c you let them in cheap.
I'll win a small pot over losing a big one.

Awesome, if people are mongs (which most are) and want to play with shit hands against ranges that have them ****ed then why is this a problem?
Seriously, this reasoning is just so bad.

If raising big stops people seeing a flop with 92o then all you accomplish is preventing them from making a mistake. It's like say I open shove JJ for 20bb since it's hard to play postflop (it isn't) and I want to win small pots rather than lose big ones. Funnily enough people that rather win small pots are also happy to min cash, whilst the people that think correctly win big.

Personally I like money so I'll carry on raising small

 

[ovitoo]

^^^ +1

 

[doomasiggy]

Obv minraising before the blinds get high is bad, but once the blinds hit like 50/100, (sometimes 25/50 depending on the tournament you're playing) minraising pre is completely standard imo.

 

[Nooneinparticular]

Yea... I really wouldn't do this in tourneys, or cash for that matter.

Oh well as you've said that with no justification I bow to your obvious knowledge.......

OP, I wasn't having a go at you, just pointing out it could be read as you raised because JJ, not because you where in early position. I come on here to discuss, debate and maybe learn, not to make stupid statements with no reasoning.....

Sorry, people on here just making statements without saying the reasoning are not achieving anything and missing the point of this place completely as they just feel the need to try to make themselves look like they know what they are doing.....

Enjoy