youregoodmate
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
I wouldnt actually min raise! Have we not all been saying about 2.1-2.5x. It makes your bet seem a lot big than it is. I.e raise to 435 instead of 400.
I wouldnt actually min raise! Have we not all been saying about 2.1-2.5x. It makes your bet seem a lot big than it is. I.e raise to 435 instead of 400.
ovitoo
Legend
Bronze Level
So you're saying I was right. Min raises are bad.
Ha...I'm done. 35 chips is pretty nit picky
edit: You're right if I see you put 435 instead of 400, its going to change my decision on wether or not to play the hand.
youregoodmate
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Your opening post said your friend says to min raise, where you clearly put 2.1 or 2.2x is the min raise... which is not bad
B
baudib1
Legend
Silver Level
There is a valid reason to open 3x. If you suck horribly postflop and are playing super tight so have a ridiculously strong range and are stacking any hand you open, then 3Xing is probably the way to go. You can get all the money in on the turn and stack whenever you have TP+. If you're actually trying to steal blinds once in a while with marginal holdings then you'd want to risk less to win more often.
ovitoo
Legend
Bronze Level
Here. Let me quote my own post. Its been applied. Thank you all for your help.
ovitoo
Legend
Bronze Level
I don't understand why the OP gets so offended ITT.
Not offended. Just that I got my answer and have EVEN APPLIED IT. I don't need to hear over and over again how I'm bad or I'm wrong.
How bout a little appreciation for someone who actually LISTENS to advice they're given. It seems to me there are so many CC members that are only satisfied with making ppl feel stupid.
If ppl are actually interested in giving 'constructive criticism'...it usually doesn't begin with "your lolbad" or "your strategy is good for players who suck"
JCgrind
Legend
Silver Level
+1, not that i think it applies all that much here. but i agree. regardless of whether they post advice along with it, its unnecessary.
although it does make you wanna learn!
dont think baudib is saying you suck post flop, more if people arent good postflop then theyd want to be x3ing
youregoodmate
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Its comments like these ^^^ that seem so blasé. If you ask for advice and then dont want it, why ask?
I am far from the most experienced player here, and will take every bit of advice from the more experienced players even if it is not an obvious leak.
JusSumguy
Chipmonger
Silver Level
Because I'm making a formal request
If you let PO piss you off, it's like shooting yourself in the foot.(in short > Blue's right, you're wrong > 'gg'
Sure, he's a bit short, but look at the number of his posts. Think it might get tiresome to say the same thing over and over?
I used to square off with him. While I still ain't asking him to go fishing with me, in time you realize the guy knows his shit.
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cardriverx
Legend
Silver Level
C
Cookie65
Rising Star
Bronze Level
I think it depends on the stage of the tournament personally. In later stages a min raise is enough to tempt an all in from mid to small stacks with less of a hand, or you could even take down the blinds there and then. In earlier stages you may be asking for trouble with a min raise as people may limp (even double blinds) with anything, and Jacks aren't always the best to play with if your pot hasn't built up enough. Its hard to get value out of pot raising when the pot is small, and ones may find it tempting even valuable to call your pot raises with overcard. If anyone thinks different I'm happy to hear.
duggs
Killing me softly
Silver Level
the crux of opening smaller as the effective stack shrinks is that it gives us alot more options and allows us to open wider. by min opening our entire range at 20bb effective
a) allows our cbet to be smaller post flop.
b) allows 20bb stacks to jam over us expecting fold equity
c) allows us to lose 1 less bb when we r/f (which is like 5% of our stack)
d) assuming we have an edge over our opponents we want to have deeper stacks (by this i mean SPR postflop)
reasons why i think its bad to 3x with 20bb effective
a) we struggle to profitably steal wide with this sizing
b) if we are intending to r/f we create super profitable 3bet spots for observant opponents
c) our cbets will put us in an awkward spot where we can virtually never give up post flop.
a) allows our cbet to be smaller post flop.
b) allows 20bb stacks to jam over us expecting fold equity
c) allows us to lose 1 less bb when we r/f (which is like 5% of our stack)
d) assuming we have an edge over our opponents we want to have deeper stacks (by this i mean SPR postflop)
reasons why i think its bad to 3x with 20bb effective
a) we struggle to profitably steal wide with this sizing
b) if we are intending to r/f we create super profitable 3bet spots for observant opponents
c) our cbets will put us in an awkward spot where we can virtually never give up post flop.
ovitoo
Legend
Bronze Level
The Messiah
Visionary
Platinum Level
Personally I min raise from the button in cash with close to my entire range, depending on dynamics o/c. It's a done thing among good regs nowadays as post flop play gets more important, I.e keeping pots smaller pre with a lot wider range. When I played mtts and on occasion nowadays,I open for 3x for the first 2 levels and then 2.5x there after, until It gets to a stage were I'm 2.2x with close to shoving stack sizes...
The Messiah
Visionary
Platinum Level
B
buster999
Rock Star
Silver Level
2.5x from ep. Anything less will create a multi-way if you get any callers before BB acts giving BB odds to call with almost atc. Don't want BB calling with rags when a overcard will fall just over 50% of the time. If its a real loose table and expect a few callers I would limp/raise most or lessen it to 2 or 2.25 and give up on most flops.
B
buster999
Rock Star
Silver Level
duggs has good points about why min raising is good, but we have a made hand here. I think min raising with JJ in touney is a leak. 2.5x is minimal and actaully prefer 3x. Just my opinion on each statement.
a)a solid c-bet will give you better idea were your at in the hand, opponent won't likely get spazzy after you 3x from ep(raise from EP usaully means strong hand)
b)Lots fold equity still left.
c)you don't want a bunch of callers. 1 extra blind will get people to fold underdog hands like A10, Q10 Kx suited that could beat us on flop.
d)Of course, but we need to give are self the best chance to win the hand at play.
a)We have a made hand not trying to steal, With 3x we can easily rep any broadway cards that fall. Get people to shove under pairs when they think the board missed our range. Not sure why you would want a wide range here, JJ is hard enough to play as is and don't want people getting spazzy on you when overcard hits
b)&c) Both these are situational.
Those were Great reasons about why to min raise though.
B
BlueNowhere
Legend
Silver Level
Lol, not sure if you're going for worst post of the year or if this is actually serious. Some awful ones so far but you've edged into the lead with this imho.
Poker Orifice
FoolsTilt
Platinum Level
I guess if I felt like helping the person out & they seemed like they wanted to learn something I might do it. Right now though... meh, not so much.
(in short > Blue's right, you're wrong > 'gg'
Didn't seem like you wanted to learn (cuz you already 'knew' what was right) & pretty sure this thread was initiated from some posts in this thread > https://www.cardschat.com/forum/pok...ind-if-i-grind-213225/index3.html#post1949990 (I think starting at ~ post 85 > "MIN RAISES ARE SHYT" & then something about wanting to piss on a book that suggests doing this (which incidentally, prolly the 3 best MTT books on the market all recommend it, even though a couple of them are now a couple/few years outdated (WPT Vol.1 & 2).
Seemed like you wanted to prove that Blue was wrong.. hence my comment & feeling strongly the opposite.
Can't say I have alot of patience either... guess it's a leak of mine.
Nice of duggs to post his reply on here. (much better man than myself, obv. lots more class)
youregoodmate
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Hahaha someone had to give him the crown. Its like we hit the nail on the head with this thread about 30 posts ago... and we've gone backwards since then.
duggs
Killing me softly
Silver Level
I think alot of these points are based on some flawed thinking and ill go through each and try to explain why.
A) preventing spazz isnt good with a strong hand/range. and if we intend to r/cbet/f then smaller is obv better
b) we arent scared of being flatted by weak ranges, thats exactly what we want
c)making people fold hands we dominate is terrible news.
d) we dont want the best chance to win the hand, we want to maximise our expected value from the hand.
a) if people play correctly they are far less likely to to jam underpairs on us, most of them will fold pre if they are any good. having a wider range makes it easier to get value, not harder