$1 NLHE STT: 58off in the BB

[S93]

lol that any one thinks this is a call let alone a snap call.
Getting 5.1/2 -1 pot odds is fine and all but it also costs us over a sixth of our stack to see a flop OOP with SPR of less then 1 with 58o.
Calling here is beyond horrible imo.

 

[atlantafalcons0]

lol that any one thinks this is a call let alone a snap call.
Getting 5.1/2 -1 pot odds is fine and all but it also costs us over a sixth of our stack to see a flop OOP with SPR of less then 1 with 58o.
Calling here is beyond horrible imo.

It's risk vs reward here and it's obvious that the reward is much bigger than the risk, over 6 times bigger. I don't understand your logic. If we don't hit something we feel comfortable with (like the resulting flop) we fold and we're still looking for a hand to shove.

 

[S93]

It's risk vs reward here and it's obvious that the reward is much bigger than the risk, over 6 times bigger. I don't understand your logic. If we don't hit something we feel comfortable with (like the resulting flop) we fold and we're still looking for a hand to shove.

We are not going to hit enough flops and win the pot enough times for it to be profitable imo.
It doesnt matter what range I assign P1 and P2 calling here just isnt going to be ev+ since we dont have enough behind to make up for the all the times we miss when we do bink a magic flop.

I would love to see if you and KD could come up with any kind of numbers to show calling here being profitable longterm.

 

[SofaKingCrazy]

This seems like a nice friendly place to post.

In my opinion there was only two actions you should have taken preflop here, shove or fold. To me it's a typical min raise the shorty while in the BB move and you have a good chance of winning right here with the shove. This all depends though on your image at the table. Were you tight at this stage or were you loose and possibly a chip leader yourself at some point during these last 50 hands you speak of?

Personally, I would have chose to fold due to having two opponents when I had to act but again it depends on my opponents and my perceived image.

:vroam:

 

[Aleksei]

This is obviously a chance to see a cheap flop. The pot is right for a call here laying 5.5 to 1 and you are last to act with no action behind guaranteed. At this point you obviously need chips so why not start by investing less than 1/6th of your chips into a pot that represents your whole stack?

Because your -EV for the hand almost doubles your actual odds (concretely, the hand has 9-1 odds and the call has 5.5-1 odds, which adds up to a -122 chip EV for the 200-chip call). Which makes it a completely awful call.

Again, I cannot for the life of me see why anyone is defending this call.

 

[KerouacsDog]

i defend this call all day long. and i will make plays like this all day long. you question as to whether this play works, well, sharkscope/opr me. my stats show Im a big winning player, playing this type of hand in this type of situation.
call call call, to see a flop.

 

[Lucothefish]

I'm going to use the ratio method because that's what you guys seem to be using, although typically I much prefer percentages.

pot odds offered: 5.5 to 1

Odds of flopping 1 pair or better: 2.08 to 1
Odds of no cards 9 or higher hitting the flop: 6.54 to 1
Odds of flopping two pair or better: 17.2 to 1
Odds of flopping an 8-out straight draw or made straight with an unsuited 2 gapper: 28.2 to 1
Odds of hitting your straight on turn or river after flopping OESD: 2.17 to 1

So when you call here, 2 times out of three you miss completely and fold.

Of the 1 in 3 that you do catch, you're hitting mid or bottom pair the vast majority of the time. Once in every 17 calls you'll hit two pair, trips or something worth playing.

FWIW you should be folding way, way better than 58o here and any hands that are good for a call you should be shoving instead.

If you're going to take good pot odds in the BB you need to do it vs a shove and not just to see a flop. Firstly you want 5 cards to improve, not 3 and second you want to know that you don't have to commit any more chips beyond the initial call.

I don't think you're trolling KD but you may have just found a leak.

 

[KerouacsDog]

not trolling, and maybe it is a leak. remember, I play limit now. easy call in limit

 

[duggs]

how is this still going? snap fold, we never realise close to enough equity.

also no using results to justify plays.

 

[KerouacsDog]

snapcall is the4 correct answer

 

[duggs]

how much of our equity do you expect us to realise? post and show me

 

[Lucothefish]

not trolling, and maybe it is a leak. remember, I play limit now. easy call in limit

In limit you can't shove the next hand pre

Generally in NLHE tourneys when your stack gets down to ~10bbs you don't have any wiggle room for anything, so your only plays preflop are push or fold. There are several reasons why it's the correct play but just remembering the 10bb rule will suffice for most, including the OP.

In this hand our stack size means we are well into 'push or fold' territory and the blinds are about to go up so our stack will be even less of a threat, we need to preserve every single chip for that next push. Flat calling is simply out of the question.

There are many situations in tournaments where making a +ev call in a vacuum can be massively detrimental to our overall tournament life so folding is still best. I would question the EV of flat calling 58o OOP with 11:2 pot odds, even in a vacuum.

 

[ScottieDuncan]

Don't even think about it. FOLD

 

[KerouacsDog]

i like to get down to 5bb then im in shove or fold mode

 

[Caesura]

Interesting response. Here's my thoughts

Most hands have a 3/1 chance of winning against a random hand, so with pot odds of nearly 6/1 I thought it was worth a call.

As the blinds were rising very soon, I would be shoving ATC (I play 5BB shove/fold) so with those odds I thought it worth a try.

The flop of

J 9 7 rainbow left me with an open ended straight draw, rule of 4 giving me approx 33% chance of hitting.

I called the all in at odds of 2/1 (this is the mistake I think I made, as I calculated at the time as 3/1 pot= 2600 my call 1100)

The five players had been going back and forth and I thought "why not, you need to play without scared money" and I hit a 6 on the river.

Villain turned over 1010 and then called me an idiot a few times.

I went on to win the tourney and this hand was the turning point. I felt clever as I believed I had played correct pot odds with crap hole cards and that it might represent an improvement of my understanding of the game.

Not so sure now though.

 

[the lab man]

i like to get down to 5bb then im in shove or fold mode

If you wait this long in an SnG you have waited way too long, Easy snap fold for this hand.

 

[Aleksei]

Let's see those stats big guy.

 

[S93]

The people saying you call here. Could you please post any numbers showing this isnt a massive -ev call?
Because all you have said is: "yeah easy call" " I defend this call all day" and not posted any piece of data or calculation to back this "easy call" up.

 

[Poker Orifice]

Another thread affirming that playing micro STT/SNG will always be +ev

 

[Aleksei]

not trolling, and maybe it is a leak. remember, I play limit now. easy call in limit

In Limit HU you don't really fold anything under a 4-bet pre, unless you're folding the hand without a challenge.

I would fold this hand without a challenge. It is a massively craptastic hand.

 

[KerouacsDog]

Interesting response. Here's my thoughts

Most hands have a 3/1 chance of winning against a random hand, so with pot odds of nearly 6/1 I thought it was worth a call.

As the blinds were rising very soon, I would be shoving ATC (I play 5BB shove/fold) so with those odds I thought it worth a try.

The flop of

J 9 7 rainbow left me with an open ended straight draw, rule of 4 giving me approx 33% chance of hitting.

I called the all in at odds of 2/1 (this is the mistake I think I made, as I calculated at the time as 3/1 pot= 2600 my call 1100)

The five players had been going back and forth and I thought "why not, you need to play without scared money" and I hit a 6 on the river.

Villain turned over 1010 and then called me an idiot a few times.

I went on to win the tourney and this hand was the turning point. I felt clever as I believed I had played correct pot odds with crap hole cards and that it might represent an improvement of my understanding of the game.

Not so sure now though.

nh

If you wait this long in an SnG you have waited way too long, Easy snap fold for this hand.

sorry, 5bb is for my mtt play. its different for sngs

The people saying you call here. Could you please post any numbers showing this isnt a massive -ev call?
Because all you have said is: "yeah easy call" " I defend this call all day" and not posted any piece of data or calculation to back this "easy call" up.

i dont play by data, but by pot odds etc

In Limit HU you don't really fold anything under a 4-bet pre, unless you're folding the hand without a challenge.

I would fold this hand without a challenge. It is a massively craptastic hand.

limit cash is different to this.

 

[RamdeeBen]

Defiantly a -EV to make this call.

There are NO hands at your stack depth to be calling with regardless of odds. You're in shove/fold mode and you have no fold equity to ever shove over. Wait for a better spot.

For ones saying call, this isn't cash. Odds are quite irrelevant in SnG's when stack sizes are like this. You have to bear in mind peoples ranges and your stack size. Calling for 10/1 for example for a 1/4 of your stack is never going to be profitable, even for the very best SnG player in the world.

 

[OMGITSOVER9K]

this threads just ruined my morning.

how can you be that bad? fold all day everyday lmao, its not difficult is it

 

[KerouacsDog]

dunno, guess Im bad?

 

[RamdeeBen]

dunno, guess Im bad?

I understand the whole callling because of odds and f I was getting like 10/1 odds and everyone was 100blinds deep - I'd call because it would be profitable multi-way and we would be risking far far less for a much bigger gain with implied odds. Here we are wanting to risk a massive 1/4 of our stack jsut to see a flop with a terrible hand. There are no hands at this stack depth imo we can profitably see flops with.

Stack sizes are so small and we're so short there are no hands other than maybe AA we can flat and even that's never going to be great either, I'd just shove that btw.

I'd literally be shove/folding on a readless table at 6 blinds deep facing a CO min raise, I'd probs be just jamming in 66+ A,T/J+ but these ranges can be changed depending on villians in equation and their image.