Possible Collusion at Carbon

[Big_Rudy]

I'm still not sure this constitutes cheating though, nor chip dumping in the traditional sense. There would have to be an express or implied agreement between CO and BB (I'm assuming villain in question here was BB). This was obviously softplay with the intention of keeping another player in the game, but I'm still not convinced this crosses the line of cheating. Softplay is one of those nebulous areas where it's highly situational. Like the aforementioned softplaying between big stacks to help drive out the shorties.

^^Exactly. Agree 100%. Without some kind of explicit agreement there is no cheating here, imo. I still maintain that his move, while scummy and obviously targeted at you, was in no manner cheating. I've faced this exact situation many, many, probably hundreds if not thousands of times in DoNs.

If you know a player is targeting you, specifically, and you are the 2nd SS it puts you in an awkward situation, for sure. But, you have to be aware of this and adjust your play accordingly. FWIW, (and way OT, but since you mentioned it) if I were at a table and letting the timer nearly run out every hand before I made a decision, I'd certainly expect to piss some of the other players off, and I wouldn't be especially surprised if some of them targeted me.

I was UTG folded, UTG+1 Folded, CO was forced to be all in with 345 everyone folded to the person I am talking about and he only had to put 50 more and would be HU with the All in. Instead he folds and the guy doubles up. I am BB next guess what happens......

Not meaning to argue with you K-mix, really, but I don't know......must have woken-up on the wrong side of the bed this morning, or something....

Anyway.....I'm just wondering why you're not accusing everyone who folded after the SS was forced AI just with the ante? Once he is AI, especially if he is forced AI and doesn't decide on his own to go AI, then the entire table should have looked him up to have as many opportunities as possible to beat his hand and end the game.

Yet several people folded before it got to villain who also folded. Shouldn't they be just as guilty? Bottom line, I think this is just a poorly-played DoN, with the added "benefit" of a player who was gunning for you, specifically, and willing to spew a little equity , which you said he could easily afford, to get you out.

 

[kmixer]

OP made the first mistake here, imo. He decided to play a DoN. Get out of that evil format and you won't have reasons to complain about collusion or whatever this was.

Great, then I'll NEVER be able to play PLO.

 

[kmixer]

Big Rudy...the reason I blame him is because of the previous threat against me. The other players were just getting out of the way I guess.

 

[Big_Rudy]

OP made the first mistake here, imo. He decided to play a DoN. Get out of that evil format and you won't have reasons to complain about collusion or whatever this was.

Whut???!!!??? Gotta love the DoNs.......Tons and tons of clueless players....

 

[Big_Rudy]

Big Rudy...the reason I blame him is because of the previous threat against me. The other players were just getting out of the way I guess.

Yeah, I have zero doubt he was targeting you. I simply don't think this crosses the line into cheating territory. Just a difference of opinion, I guess.

 

[dmorris68]

I see where you've posted this at 2p2 and are getting pretty much identical responses there. Not sure that makes you feel any better, but...

 

[naruto_miu]

I'll ask one question, did he fold to this particular player in question very often, or did he fold when in hands with this player in question while other players were in...So more or less asking if this player in question played hands very differently in pots when it was multiway + with this player in question in the pot or did he not do this with this player in question? Also I'd agree that what WV said earlier about this player being a douche and trying to make you lose seems like the reasonable line of thinking and wanting to get you out only

 

[ckingriches]

I'm pretty sure OP has already accepted that this wasn't collusion - if my read is correct, maybe he even regrets using the word - or maybe the entire thread.

For what it's worth, I've seen this many times. In fact, there was a CC thread a couple of months ago that was very similar...

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/tournament-poker-59/can-i-get-trouble-210218/

Over the years I've seen many MTT's where peeps befriended their tablemates and nursed the short stacks through the bubble, folding instead of betting a few extra chips to keep their newfound "friends" alive. It sure sucks when you're not quite short, but with too few chips to play aggressively. Whether it's cheating or not is up for debate - but it's not the right way to play.

I've also seen the other side, where a player has pissed off another and done exactly what the OP was subject to. I've seen it in DONkeys, I've seen it in standard SNG's, I've seen it in MTT's, and I've seen it in CC events (not frequent in the latter, but it's happened).

 

[Big_Rudy]

I've also seen the other side, where a player has pissed off another and done exactly what the OP was subject to. I've seen it in DONkeys, I've seen it in standard SNG's, I've seen it in MTT's, and I've seen it in CC events (not frequent in the latter, but it's happened).

Yep. Having a vendetta against a specific player can certainly be -ev, but I don't believe that it in any way falls under the category of cheating. Poker is often a game of egos. This happens a fair bit in DoNs because the big stacks can frequently spew a little equity to target someone they have a beef with and really don't suffer much as a consequence since they are still likely to cash.

 

[kmixer]

I see where you've posted this at 2p2 and are getting pretty much identical responses there. Not sure that makes you feel any better, but...

Where did you see that? I haven't been over to P2P since they had their hacking problem. Which has to make you wonder who else this has happened to. Can you share the link at P2P where you saw this?

 

[kmixer]

I'll ask one question, did he fold to this particular player in question very often, or did he fold when in hands with this player in question while other players were in...So more or less asking if this player in question played hands very differently in pots when it was multiway + with this player in question in the pot or did he not do this with this player in question? Also I'd agree that what WV said earlier about this player being a douche and trying to make you lose seems like the reasonable line of thinking and wanting to get you out only

TBH this was the first hand I can recall him folding at all. Which is why it was such a blatant target on me to ensure I went as he threatedned to do.

Maybe as others have said this does not cross as cheating line but maybe it will just be another nail for this player if others have complained about them in the passed.

I do regret using the collusing word and I had earlier asked for it to be changed to possible cheating. I also feel that it is good for our community to look out for each other no matter what Carbon thinks.

 

[Hardcorecake]

I'm pretty sure Collusion is impossible in DoNs...Pretty sure I read that in a science journal. Side note...(what I mean to say is collusion is so easy in DoNs...I've had a little profit in them but stopped because even when I won one I feel like everyone at the table is colluding...could just be paranoid delusions...then again)

 

[BelgoSuisse]

Where did you see that? I haven't been over to P2P since they had their hacking problem. Which has to make you wonder who else this has happened to.

Well, it happened to most people who chose to play DoNs.

Collusion is so ridiculously profitable at DoNs, that's it's 100% unavoidable that it will happen. Two years ago or something like that it was revealed that essentially all the top DoN players at pokerstars were part of the same Chinese collusion ring. There's a huge 2p2 thread on this. And it made PS decide to replace the DoN by their 50/50 where the payoff of colluding is a lot smaller.

 

[dmorris68]

Where did you see that? I haven't been over to P2P since they had their hacking problem. Which has to make you wonder who else this has happened to. Can you share the link at P2P where you saw this?

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/195/lock-poker/cheating-don-1223677

You said Carbon and this one says Lock so my bad, I guess it wasn't you. Strange coincidence though given the timing (posted yesterday) and the details, right down to folding to 50 more chips just to knock another short stack out.

11558989 Tournament ID number
PLayer Lanel00 purposely dumped chips to other player when it was 4 handed to keep me from winning. Please check the chat after the tournament ended, in where the player told me he screwed me over cause I got lucky in a previous DoN. Please look into Shane as this player pretty much kept me from having a chance as he folded every hand to shallow stacks and even called 1000 raise with player having 50 behind and folded to 50 bet to spite me.

 

[kmixer]

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/195/lock-poker/cheating-don-1223677

You said Carbon and this one says Lock so my bad, I guess it wasn't you. Strange coincidence though given the timing (posted yesterday) and the details, right down to folding to 50 more chips just to knock another short stack out.

Thanks for sharing but no not me at all.

 

[Big_Rudy]

I'm pretty sure Collusion is impossible in DoNs...Pretty sure I read that in a science journal. Side note...(what I mean to say is collusion is so easy in DoNs...I've had a little profit in them but stopped because even when I won one I feel like everyone at the table is colluding...could just be paranoid delusions...then again)

Everyone at the table IS colluding, or at least they SHOULD be if they understand the format. This is why DoNs remain profitable for those of us that "get-it" v. those of us that don't.

Trying to put it as simply as possible (go ahead, nit-pick if you must, but this is the basic idea); DoNs begin as any other STT. By that i mean it's every man for himself. HOWEVER, as you go deeper and deeper and get close and closer to the bubble they transition into a team game where it's the medium and large stacks against the shorties. And, the shorties battle it out to avoid becoming the absolute SS. If you don't understand this transition from an individual to a team game; you aren't playing DoNs correctly.

Is this collusion? Absolutely. However, it's the "normal and expected" collusion that is inherent in this format. It is absolutely different from the other, illegal collusion.

Well, it happened to most people who chose to play DoNs.

Collusion is so ridiculously profitable at DoNs, that's it's 100% unavoidable that it will happen. Two years ago or something like that it was revealed that essentially all the top DoN players at Pokerstars were part of the same Chinese collusion ring. There's a huge 2p2 thread on this. And it made PS decide to replace the DoN by their 50/50 where the payoff of colluding is a lot smaller.

This, on the other hand, is the illegal type of collusion and is exactly why Stars had to kill, unfortunately, what was a very profitable format for educated players.

What's the difference? Easy. In this type of colluding there is a pre-existing agreement to play as a team, regardless of what the actual situation dictates. Note in the first example the "team members" aren't fixed and team play proceeds as the situation on the table dictates. That is, during play, players can be, and are, moved from the team gunning for the shorties to the shorty team, and vice-versa, as their chip stacks dictate.

In the illicit form of collusion this movement of "team members" never happens. That is, certain players have an agreement to ALWAYS play as a team, with each others interests at heart at all times, regardless of what the interests of the table as a whole dictate.

I really don't know if I've made this any clearer, or not, but, hey, I took a shot.

Cliffs.....is there collusion in DoNs? Yes, absolutely. Is it illegal? It depends.

 

[dj11]

Trying to put it as simply as possible (go ahead, nit-pick if you must, but this is the basic idea); DoNs begin as any other STT. By that i mean it's every man for himself. HOWEVER, as you go deeper and deeper and get close and closer to the bubble they transition into a team game where it's the medium and large stacks against the shorties. And, the shorties battle it out to avoid becoming the absolute SS. If you don't understand this transition from an individual to a team game; you

It should be noted that this is not just poker we are talking about. In any tourney covering any game, these strategies are inherent. In poker however they are more obvious than say in a golf tournament, or a bowling tournament. It may be harder to do an 'unstated' group collusion like in poker, but functionally, there is no difference.

It is the nature of a tournament. Think jousting.......

 

[Big_Rudy]

It should be noted that this is not just poker we are talking about. In any tourney covering any game, these strategies are inherent. In poker however they are more obvious than say in a golf tournament, or a bowling tournament. It may be harder to do an 'unstated' group collusion like in poker, but functionally, there is no difference.

It is the nature of a tournament. Think jousting.......

Hmmm....potentially, I can see this. I would think the escalating pay-out structure of most sporting events would minimize this, though. It's the flat payout structure that encourages implicit collusions in DoNs. That's why Stars moved away from true DoNs to 50/50s where collusion is less profitable since there is no longer a flat pay-out structure. But, to some degree, I take your point. It's part of the game. It's part of the game in DoNs, too--a big part.

 

[long_bong]

TBH I would of like to see or hear about multiple games/scenarios with said player colluding.

Also a little bit of investigation on ptr/opr would of been suffice firstly.

Just some tips for next time, do a little bit more investigation

As it is kind of rude to call out someone on a bad play like this and making it public without any strong evidence.

 

[kmixer]

TBH I would of like to see or hear about multiple games/scenarios with said player colluding.

Also a little bit of investigation on ptr/opr would of been suffice firstly.

Just some tips for next time, do a little bit more investigation

As it is kind of rude to call out someone on a bad play like this and making it public without any strong evidence.

I see it as informing the community. I have strong evidence. I was in the game.

 

[kmixer]

No word from carbon in 4 days. They last wrote me this.

Thank you for contacting us.

We sincerely apologize for the delay in replying but we are currently experiencing a high volume of emails. Our response times should return to normal shortly. Your understanding and patience are greatly appreciated.

We will review this issue and take the appropriate measures. Thanks for letting us know this.

We are always here to help you. Please feel free to reply to this email if you have any additional questions in relation to this or any other matter. Your reference ID for this email is LTK57X0148424XXX; please quote this number in any further communication on this subject.

Hopefully they will get back to me again.

 

[seqas]

just give them some time it may varies how long time there will go before its investigated since they will need to have a look and lock on them.

it was the possible cheating you sent them email to or is it some other?

 

[RamdeeBen]

I don't want to go into too many details because I have an email into support but I did want to warn everyone here that player **name removed until further evidence** is most likely involved in collusion on Carbon.

The one thing I will say is that he had someone that was all in in front of him and he only had 50 more chips to call and he folded. He had 9000 in tourney chips when he did this. Just before this he had been abusive toward me and told me I was next in his taking out of players.


Not sure what will be the end result and the BI was not even all that much to worry about just wanted to let my CC friends know and to keep a watchful eye

I haven't read through the whole thread so I will base my comment on your OP.

Can you post the HH please, the reason I ask is because you do realise this is absolutely normal and correct play from a huge chip leader in what I guess is a bubble time?

I assume you also had a moderately okish stack and the SS was the shover?

If this is the case he can dictate the play for the most part. if calls and busts the short stack in this spot, ICM isn't as big of a deal now for medicore stacks like yourself.

If he folds even getting 10/1 odds he can then punish yourself along with the other medium sizes stacks putting you in postions where you HAVE to fold for ICM purposes leaving him with more dead money orbit after orbit by abusing the merdium stacks and leaving the shortest stack alive in the game. Simply put, there is very little you can do in spots like this and calling even A,K in these spots is going to be -EV purely based on the short stack being kept alive by the big stack.


People also use words of "your next" etcetc..he can do, he has the stack size's he is ok if you call and double up..just because he said that doesn't mean he's colluding, sounds like to me he played well with knowing playing stack sizes and basically playing the players on the bubble and gaining more chips through applying perfect pressure to you and not the SS. Great ICM play imo from villian.

 

[BelgoSuisse]

Can you post the HH please, the reason I ask is because you do realise this is absolutely normal and correct play from a huge chip leader in what I guess is a bubble time?

It's a DoN, not a regular SNG. So your analysis does not apply.

Being a DoN, it also means that it's very likely collusion and that OP should not complain since he chose to play the one poker game where collusion is the most common and most profitable.

 

[LaserCats]

Sometimes when you're a multi-tabling doosh - you don't realize the guy had another 50 chips - and you think your already all in with the SS. So you go to another table only to realize - there was another 50 left ... not sure this was the case...But ive been there.