Possible Collusion at Carbon

[cheaptrix]

Good so I know in the future if I spot anything like this I can count on all of your support.

aka

Will never consider a thread like this again.

i don't think anyone is doubting your accusations. it's just that it's a serious offense and it would be irresponsible to wrongly accuse without solid evidence.
post supports response when they finish the investigation.

 

[Poker Orifice]

It's a big accusation and you can't just post somebodies name and say they have colluded without serious evidence. If you showed that he had played 3k games lifetime and 2k of those games were played with said player. Also his ROI was siginificantly higher in the 2k games the accused player play together would be a start to a case of collusion.

If he was colluding why would he make it so blatent by telling you "you're next" and then folding in this spot. He could easily jsut be a random fish that doesn't want to put any chips in the middle with 32o.

You can count on the poker communities support if you come forward with a convinving accusation backed up with evidence. Take a look on 2p2 at some threads similar to this and how much evidence was provided in doing so.

I disagree with what you're suggesting as parameters to meet collusion. (LOL at suggestion of 3,000 games, etc. blah blah blah.. ridiculous). And that he showed higher ROI in 2/3 of games where perhaps he was colluding (LOL more nonsense)
I've found players colluding in '1' game & it was blatant. Also never saw them on the site again after I'd reported it (& ran their sn's via TopShark & they didn't play again).

OP hasn't given much of a description of the collusion aside from player folding when getting I'm assuming great odds for 50chips (& assuming he's closing out the action). Obviously not to abuse the bubble.... it's a f'n DoN. Maybe just some goof who wanted to be a jerk off & had you pegged for some reason & wanted to see you lose (how many times have you seen idiots doin' dumb shyt like this online in sng's? I can't count how many).
OP, post some HH's (or post 'THE' 'HH' in question) & chat log.

 

[Marginal]

Did not feel like you giving me the benefit of anything.

9k in chips - "You're next"
Folds his BB to an all in with only 50 chips to call HU

was he soft playing this same guy throughout the DON? or any other occasions of note?

 

[Poker Orifice]

it's just that it's a serious offense and it would be irresponsible to wrongly accuse without solid evidence.
post supports response when they finish the investigation.

this ^

 

[kidkvno1]

If he limped in, and only had to call 50 chips on the all-in'er but then folded i see it as chip dumping. But let's see what Carbon has to say.
DoN collusion runs high.
Do let us know if you get any info from Carbon, or see him playing again.

Folds his BB to an all in with only 50 chips to call HU

Snap call!

 

[Big_Rudy]

I'm gonna take the middle road here. I've played a lot of DoNs over the years and collusion is rampant in these games. However, there are different kinds of collusion; some expected and implicit to the format of the game and others that seemingly make little/no mathematical sense and aren't really collusion at all.

Expected/implicit collusion is when all the mid and large stacks "gang-up" on the shorty at the bubble to get him out so that all remaining players cash. Goes with the format, and is expected though never voiced.

What you're talking about here is not that. His play makes no sense, BUT that doesn't necessarily make it collusion, either. It's far more likely, imo, that for whatever reason you, specifically, were his target. Maybe you pissed him off earlier, maybe he didn't like your avatar, maybe he drew straws before match and picked you. Who knows? Anyway, it seems like he wanted you out regardless and was willing to let the other player live in order to achieve this goal.

While, mathmatically and financially, his play makes no sense; that doesn't automatically make it collusion either. He is free to play any hand in any manner he wishes. It only becomes collusion if he had a prior arrangement with the all-in player that he would fold to him at the end, rather than look him up. Or, some similar agreement, prior to this hand, that they would work co-operatively regardless if either of them became short. Something like that.

Bottom line is you can't collude with yourself. If he just let this guy live to get get you out because he had targeted you that's a douchy move for sure; but it's not evidence of collusion. To collude the other player would have to be actively working with him due to a prior arrangement where they would soft-play each other even if the math said not to.

Without the active participation of the all-in short-stack; there is no collusion. If you suspect there was such an arrangement; you're gonna need lots of proof. You're gonna have to have many, many games that they have played together where they participate in a strategy/move similar to this in order to spare each other. Not saying it doesn't/couldn't happen, but you're gonna need LOTS and LOTS of proof over many, many games.

 

[kmixer]

I have retracted the Collusion already. That was a bad choice of words on my part. Chip dumping? If not then I seriously have no thread and sorry for posting.

 

[kmixer]

If he limped in, and only had to call 50 chips on the all-in'er but then folded i see it as chip dumping. But let's see what Carbon has to say.
DoN collusion runs high.
Do let us know if you get any info from Carbon, or see him playing again.


Snap call!

That's what I thought too. But I guess if folding on purpose is not cheating I have no case. My original intention was to warn CC players to watch out.

 

[WVHillbilly]

Certainly sounds like he could have been soft playing in an effort to knock you out as opposed to the other player but that's not collusion. It's only collusion if another player was involved and had prior knowledge.

What he did sounds like a super douche move but it's still not enough to post his screen name imo. If Carbon comes back with something or you want to investigate other games that might have taken place with these 2 players I'll gladly add it back as I said before.

 

[cardriverx]

tbh this is what I think happened. He wasn't paying attention -- saw that he had 72o or something and hit check/fold. I've seen this happen many a times in micro DONS. where the BB will have like 5k and fold to a shove for like 150 extra chips.

It's just a sign of bad play.

Not saying that it couldn't be collusion, but I highly doubt it.

Btw, chip dumping is collusion. Also, soft playing is against the rules but I actually wouldn't think that occurred.

 

[kmixer]

Certainly sounds like he could have been soft playing in an effort to knock you out as opposed to the other player but that's not collusion. It's only collusion if another player was involved and had prior knowledge.

What he did sounds like a super douche move but it's still not enough to post his screen name imo. If Carbon comes back with something or you want to investigate other games that might have taken place with these 2 players I'll gladly add it back as I said before.

Thanks

 

[seqas]

if it were collusion im pretty sure you will get the answer from carbon ones they have investigated it further, would be nice seeing the names IF its the case there will come evidence, even if you have retracted i do hope you have email carbon anyway, better be sure than not. actually got 2 players banned from stars as well ones because of collusion and had email from them after it was investigated and they had the 2 players banned.

I see one mention collusion in the don's, would it be possible getting a pm from one with info, with what stakes and such or if its just general. maybe therefor i cant win any @carbon or rarely lol.

e:
i couldnt see user, but just found him @first page. will pm him myself bout the dons

 

[kmixer]

if it were collusion im pretty sure you will get the answer from carbon ones they have investigated it further, would be nice seeing the names IF its the case there will come evidence, even if you have retracted i do hope you have email carbon anyway, better be sure than not. actually got 2 players banned from stars as well ones because of collusion and had email from them after it was investigated and they had the 2 players banned.

I see one mention collusion in the don's, would it be possible getting a pm from one with info, with what stakes and such or if its just general. maybe therefor i cant win any @carbon or rarely lol.

I only had to retract the collusion statement here. When I sent the email I titled it cheating.

Sorry for any confusion here.

It may end up that they say it was just a guy taking out his frustrations.

To me it was a chip dump to help another player.

 

[kmixer]

tbh this is what I think happened. He wasn't paying attention -- saw that he had 72o or something and hit check/fold. I've seen this happen many a times in micro DONS. where the BB will have like 5k and fold to a shove for like 150 extra chips.

It's just a sign of bad play.

Not saying that it couldn't be collusion, but I highly doubt it.

Btw, chip dumping is collusion. Also, soft playing is against the rules but I actually wouldn't think that occurred.

If someone has been playing almost every hand and then they fold when they only have to call 50 chips and have 9K left, what do you call that?

 

[Tammy]

If someone has been playing almost every hand and then they fold when they only have to call 50 chips and have 9K left, what do you call that?

You could call it a lot of things, but truth is, you don't know what the guy was thinking. Yeah, we all know it was a bad fold, etc., but truthfully, I've accidentally folded in a situation like that myself (not paying attention, or misclick), and then went, "Oh ****, should have called."

Anyway, all people are saying is there's just no way of knowing off of this one hand. Would really like to know what support says, though.

 

[woohoo sue]

was he soft playing this same guy throughout the DON? or any other occasions of note?

yeah he may have been distracted by wanting to say "YOU are next" to you that he didnt bet.....
I confronted the one time i saw collussion and person said he's my brother....as his excuse finally...they made it to the money in a game i won...with cheers from the sides when i took out colluders...
I do not like colluders either, but what you have described is not collussion.....failure to bet can be anything.... just the other day i was navigating through games and had pressed the all in (could have easily been the fold) by mistake..phew everyone folded.

 

[kmixer]

You could call it a lot of things, but truth is, you don't know what the guy was thinking. Yeah, we all know it was a bad fold, etc., but truthfully, I've accidentally folded in a situation like that myself (not paying attention, or misclick), and then went, "Oh ****, should have called."

Anyway, all people are saying is there's just no way of knowing off of this one hand. Would really like to know what support says, though.

Sorry but it was not a bad fold he deliberately targeted me by allowing the other player to stay in. He told me beforehand of his intentions to take me out. I think it is obvious. I doubt Carbon will do anything about it though

 

[MediaBLITZ]

Sorry but it was not a bad fold he deliberately targeted me by allowing the other player to stay in. He told me beforehand of his intentions to take me out. I think it is obvious. I doubt Carbon will do anything about it though

I once did something similar - vindictive bastard that I am - and got the sucker I went after too. Talk about sub-optimal poker - ha!

So what did you do to piss him off again?

 

[dmorris68]

While certainly ill-advised and pretty immature to do, gunning for someone specifically isn't going to be ruled cheating.

I'm more inclined to believe he misclicked, because how does he plan to take you or anyone out with 50 chips? You don't mention blind levels but if you're on the bubble even in a 6-max DON I can't see 50 chips even making a bb. But even if that was his intention, I don't ever see a ruling of cheating being made. But obviously you're set on this being somehow a cheating event, so good luck with whatever resolution you're seeking.

As someone already pointed out, DONs do have very different and specific strategies compared to SNGs and other games, and bubble "softplay" is often part of that strategy where the bigger stacks stay out of each others way and gang up on the smaller stacks. I think a lot of people erroneously lump this in with explicit collusion to make collusion seem far more prevalent in DONs than it really is. I play a ton of DONs (primarily even) and it's pretty rare I see anything suspicious beyond the aforementioned strategic "softplay" between big stacks on the bubble.

 

[JusSumguy]

You have not given any indication of collusion

He certainly has... this smacks of chip dumping to me. Should be investigated.

-

 

[cat24550]

abuse at carbon

I was in that game with you and yes someone did say exactly as you said. I played all day but do remember that. I don't recall his username right now but it will come to me. I didn't think about any collusion mostly because i was distracted by grandkids but recall this episode because i thought it very poor conduct. hope to play poker with you again, but i do have to admit i misclick at times. lol

 

[kmixer]

While certainly ill-advised and pretty immature to do, gunning for someone specifically isn't going to be ruled cheating.

I'm more inclined to believe he misclicked, because how does he plan to take you or anyone out with 50 chips? You don't mention blind levels but if you're on the bubble even in a 6-max DON I can't see 50 chips even making a bb. But even if that was his intention, I don't ever see a ruling of cheating being made. But obviously you're set on this being somehow a cheating event, so good luck with whatever resolution you're seeking.

As someone already pointed out, DONs do have very different and specific strategies compared to SNGs and other games, and bubble "softplay" is often part of that strategy where the bigger stacks stay out of each others way and gang up on the smaller stacks. I think a lot of people erroneously lump this in with explicit collusion to make collusion seem far more prevalent in DONs than it really is. I play a ton of DONs (primarily even) and it's pretty rare I see anything suspicious beyond the aforementioned strategic "softplay" between big stacks on the bubble.

I was UTG folded, UTG+1 Folded, CO was forced to be all in with 345 everyone folded to the person I am talking about and he only had to put 50 more and would be HU with the All in. Instead he folds and the guy doubles up. I am BB next guess what happens.....

He certainly has... this smacks of chip dumping to me. Should be investigated.

-

I thought so too.

I was in that game with you and yes someone did say exactly as you said. I played all day but do remember that. I don't recall his username right now but it will come to me. I didn't think about any collusion mostly because i was distracted by grandkids but recall this episode because i thought it very poor conduct. hope to play poker with you again, but i do have to admit i misclick at times. lol

No need to remember his Username as it can't be posted here unless Carbon rules this as cheating. While I can certainly understand why that would be the case I think it is important to note that even if Carbon does not rule it as cheating does not mean it wasn't. My point in posting this was to provide a heads up on my observation. As a community we should base decisions on what is good for our members. My thought is that this is a type of player that our members should be aware of. I guess if it does not turn out that Carbon found him to be cheating I will start a new thread warning of a very aggro player that will target you, instead of accusing them of cheating.

 

[kmixer]

Also someone mentioned that I must have done something to piss him off. He was annoyed because I was using my clock, Multi-tabling.

 

[BelgoSuisse]

OP made the first mistake here, imo. He decided to play a DoN. Get out of that evil format and you won't have reasons to complain about collusion or whatever this was.

 

[dmorris68]

I was UTG folded, UTG+1 Folded, CO was forced to be all in with 345 everyone folded to the person I am talking about and he only had to put 50 more and would be HU with the All in. Instead he folds and the guy doubles up. I am BB next guess what happens.....

Ah, okay. Somehow by the time I reached the end of the thread I had misread that he folded with only 50 chips behind. Reading comprehension fail on my part.

I'm still not sure this constitutes cheating though, nor chip dumping in the traditional sense. There would have to be an express or implied agreement between CO and BB (I'm assuming villain in question here was BB). This was obviously softplay with the intention of keeping another player in the game, but I'm still not convinced this crosses the line of cheating. Softplay is one of those nebulous areas where it's highly situational. Like the aforementioned softplaying between big stacks to help drive out the shorties.

I'd be interested to hear what Carbon comes back with. You might also consider posting in the Carbon thread on 2p2 where they have a couple of reps that answer questions and help with passing things along to security.