Possible Collusion at Carbon

[bullishwwd]

Hard to believe this thread has gotten so much action ... but, I guess all this arguing "activity" counts as "posting activity". It sure did not seem to me to be evidence of collusion which is a serious accusation. I certainly did enjoy some of the discussion.

 

[CAMurray]

I don't want to go into too many details because I have an email into support but I did want to warn everyone here that player **name removed until further evidence** is most likely involved in collusion on Carbon.

The one thing I will say is that he had someone that was all in in front of him and he only had 50 more chips to call and he folded. He had 9000 in tourney chips when he did this. Just before this he had been abusive toward me and told me I was next in his taking out of players.


Not sure what will be the end result and the BI was not even all that much to worry about just wanted to let my CC friends know and to keep a watchful eye

All possibilities aside, the most probable action are usually the ones that make the most sense. If it looks like a Chip Dump, and it smells like a Chip Dump.........
So I agree with Kmix.

Let site security track ISPs and game commonality for the 2 players involved and if there is collusion, a picture will appear.

 

[eberetta1]

I put a player note on player A, if I think there was collusion,including the name of the player he passed chips to and date it. And with the player he passed chips to, I also put in my player notes on that player the name of the player that passed him chips and the date. Then when I play in the future and I see these player names with player notes pop up several times, it would show me if there is a pattern going on.
If I see a player playing only when another person is on at the same time, there could possibly be collusion. The other possibility is, the site is so small there are not enough tables, so to get in a game you are stuck playing the same several people over and over.
My opinion is it was not collusion in this case. He could have been distracted. I have done this in the past with a sitout, giving him my chips, and the only way I notice is several hands later when people keep raising my small blind. It is not collusion or chip dumping on my part. Some sites do not say he is sitting out, but he is a sitout because it autofolds his hands except when he is big blind and here I am giving a sitout my chips.
Do my player notes suggestion and have some evidence available. You do not provide enough evidence to support your case. It is so far just libeling a player because he did not play the way the rest of us would.

 

[kmixer]

It's a DoN, not a regular SNG. So your analysis does not apply.

Being a DoN, it also means that it's very likely collusion and that OP should not complain since he chose to play the one poker game where collusion is the most common and most profitable.

Sometimes when you're a multi-tabling doosh - you don't realize the guy had another 50 chips - and you think your already all in with the SS. So you go to another table only to realize - there was another 50 left ... not sure this was the case...But ive been there.

Except that he outright stated that he was targeting me. I guess Carbon security will decide.

 

[BelgoSuisse]

Except that he outright stated that he was targeting me. I guess Carbon security will decide.

Good luck with that. If he targeted you out of spite, that's 100% legitimate play on his part and there's no way he will be accused of collusion.

 

[kmixer]

Good luck with that. If he targeted you out of spite, that's 100% legitimate play on his part and there's no way he will be accused of collusion.

I started this thread to warn others. I have already stated that Collusion was a bad choice of words.

As I stated earlier if Carbon does not find cheating on his part should have very little to do with warning the community about an unfair or aggressive player.

Hopefully you agree.

 

[jazzaxe]

The motive seems that he wanted to either get you out first or he wanted to keep the shortie in as long as possible. There are guys that sign up together on these D o N tourneys and protect each other. It is not strictly collusion but it generally works the same way. If there is a tacit understanding between certain players that they won't raise each other out of the pot it is close enough for me. Most of the sites have a policy against soft playing, but I have seen a lot of it over the years. A lot of the forum buyin tourneys have a regular set of players and I have seen this happen occassionally. I was not referring to this forum, since I don't play the buy ins here, but it has happened in the past. A lot of time my suspicions may be groundless, simply because it is so hard to prove. That doesn't make it smell any better, though.

 

[kmixer]

The motive seems that he wanted to either get you out first or he wanted to keep the shortie in as long as possible. There are guys that sign up together on these D o N tourneys and protect each other. It is not strictly collusion but it generally works the same way. If there is a tacit understanding between certain players that they won't raise each other out of the pot it is close enough for me. Most of the sites have a policy against soft playing, but I have seen a lot of it over the years. A lot of the forum buyin tourneys have a regular set of players and I have seen this happen occassionally. I was not referring to this forum, since I don't play the buy ins here, but it has happened in the past. A lot of time my suspicions may be groundless, simply because it is so hard to prove. That doesn't make it smell any better, though.

The major problem I have with this player is that

a) He told me he was going to take me out based on an earlier issue with me using up my clock

b) yes it was extreme soft play because he folded to an all in when all he had to do was call 50 chips more on his BB and he had 9K

If Carbon does not find cheating involved I still think it is in the best interest of our community to know about players like this. That is my opinion. If the majority of people disagree this will be my one and only thread like this.

 

[ThatsNasssty]

I was playing 3 handed in dollar Dazzler on cake. and this happened to me. Guy said I bet your the next out. Happy ending I took them both out and won tourney. But I guess a 7 to 1 chiplead helps collusion

 

[naruto_miu]

I was playing 3 handed in dollar Dazzler on cake. and this happened to me. Guy said I bet your the next out. Happy ending I took them both out and won tourney. But I guess a 7 to 1 chiplead helps collusion

lol nice story...Love it when they smack talk and then you just bash them in

 

[BelgoSuisse]

me using up my clock

 

[Poker Orifice]

....

 

[rssurfer54]

I think the main point is collusion can only be preplanned. This could be before a tournament, during a break, or right before the hand in question. But if there was no preplanning to help or be helped by another player, it can't be collusion.

Another way to see it is that players can play however they want as long as they don't have an agreement with another player to softplay/chip dump etc. If some guy is playing with me and says "I like you, I'm going to let you stick around" to my short stack shove, that's not collusion, that's just bad poker. It's only collusion if we decided we would do this beforehand.

 

[SofaKingCrazy]

Did not feel like you giving me the benefit of anything.

9k in chips - "You're next"
Folds his BB to an all in with only 50 chips to call HU

What you're talking about here is not that. His play makes no sense, BUT that doesn't necessarily make it collusion, either. It's far more likely, imo, that for whatever reason you, specifically, were his target. Maybe you pissed him off earlier, maybe he didn't like your avatar, maybe he drew straws before match and picked you. Who knows? Anyway, it seems like he wanted you out regardless and was willing to let the other player live in order to achieve this goal.

While, mathmatically and financially, his play makes no sense; that doesn't automatically make it collusion either. He is free to play any hand in any manner he wishes. It only becomes collusion if he had a prior arrangement with the all-in player that he would fold to him at the end, rather than look him up. Or, some similar agreement, prior to this hand, that they would work co-operatively regardless if either of them became short. Something like that.

Bottom line is you can't collude with yourself. If he just let this guy live to get get you out because he had targeted you that's a douchy move for sure; but it's not evidence of collusion. To collude the other player would have to be actively working with him due to a prior arrangement where they would soft-play each other even if the math said not to.

I once did something similar - vindictive bastard that I am - and got the sucker I went after too. Talk about sub-optimal poker - ha!

So what did you do to piss him off again?

Also someone mentioned that I must have done something to piss him off. He was annoyed because I was using my clock, Multi-tabling.

Yeah, I have to admit that i have done this a few times, maybe more. LOL

and not just DoNs either but any STT

The clock thing would piss me off too, especially if it's continuous. I play STTs because they are fast and I like breaks while playing. I've learned not to inform the "target" that i have it out for them cause that -ev.

Personally, i would have targeted you in the beginning to mid stage but with 6 left in a DoN i would just want to end the game. But if it was your mouth that got me pissed i have found that i will go to great lengths to "get you" and if by chance you were 2nd from shortest stack i would fold to the shorty every chance i could just to piss you off like you did to me.

Another thing that ticks me off is players who fold blinds to sitters. The 1st one could have been a mistake and will get a comment like "WTF?". Any time after that I'll target you and do my best to take you out.

Either way just be mindful of what game you're in and who's playing. If you are multi tabling then try to keep up with the STTs because most who play those games are looking for a short game and not one that gets dragged out.

:evil:

 

[Big_Rudy]

LOL, love it. 'Bout sums-up this thread nicely. My take.....if you make yourself a target by constantly abusing the clock, don't then complain if someone actually makes you a target. I play a lot of STTs too, and milking the clock every hand will definately make you a target.

 

[kmixer]

Ah I see it's back to being my fault. LOL

 

[Big_Rudy]

Ah I see it's back to being my fault. LOL

Nope not your fault, but if you piss someone off earlier in a match don't you think it's reasonable they will seek revenge later if they get a chance?

 

[ThatsNasssty]

lol nice story...Love it when they smack talk and then you just bash them in

Ty sir glad u enjoyed

 

[MediaBLITZ]

Nope not your fault, but if you piss someone off earlier in a match don't you think it's reasonable they will seek revenge later if they get a chance?

And you just never know.

Story time -

I played in a live tourney last week and sitting at my table in the beginning was a jack ass who took a buddy out at the final table the week before. I was at that table myself and the guy was a hotshot jerk - rivered it and then slow rolled my friend. Really pissed my guy off - he was talking about it for two days. I told my friend to chill out - tried to talk him off the ledge. He's like well wouldn't you be pissed if it happened to you. Told him I get more pissed when I screw up not when an idiot draws out on me, BUT to be clear - no, I don't get pissed but I do not forget. Don't get mad, get even. I have alist of guy's in my head right now that I owe some payback to.

So my buddy sees I have this guy at my table and he texts me from his table. In a nutshell he put a bounty on his head and I went out of my way (recollecting his playing style from that final table) and had this guy out the door sometime in the third level. Like I told my friend - "Sorry I didn't get a picture - the guy looked like he was going to throw up when a I flipped my double gut shot straight to his flopped set."
You see I just don't play gappers (8T) - especially to raised pot - but I did for this guy.

Did he mean to slow roll in the other tourney or just a brain fart? Is he a great guy in real life? Did he even know I was gunning for him?
Who knows, who cares - it happens.

Collusion? I don't know - but I sleep at night. It certainly was not cheating.

 

[Big_Rudy]

And you just never know.

Story time -

I played in a live tourney last week and sitting at my table in the beginning was a jack ass who took a buddy out at the final table the week before. I was at that table myself and the guy was a hotshot jerk - rivered it and then slow rolled my friend. Really pissed my guy off - he was talking about it for two days. I told my friend to chill out - tried to talk him off the ledge. He's like well wouldn't you be pissed if it happened to you. Told him I get more pissed when I screw up not when an idiot draws out on me, BUT to be clear - no, I don't get pissed but I do not forget. Don't get mad, get even. I have alist of guy's in my head right now that I owe some payback to.

So my buddy sees I have this guy at my table and he texts me from his table. In a nutshell he put a bounty on his head and I went out of my way (recollecting his playing style from that final table) and had this guy out the door sometime in the third level. Like I told my friend - "Sorry I didn't get a picture - the guy looked like he was going to throw up when a I flipped my double gut shot straight to his flopped set."
You see I just don't play gappers (8T) - especially to raised pot - but I did for this guy.

Did he mean to slow roll in the other tourney or just a brain fart? Is he a great guy in real life? Did he even know I was gunning for him?
Who knows, who cares - it happens.

Collusion? I don't know - but I sleep at night. It certainly was not cheating.

Cool story MB, thanks for sharing.

@KM and anyone else who's interested.....The bolded bit above is part and parcel of poker. In an ideal world, if everyone played optimum ev poker all the time it wouldn't be, but we are all human and everyone, at times, lets some non-optimal play creep into their game for personal reasons-- revenge being one of them.

I really think you are making more of this whole situation than it is. You pissed a guy off at some point in the DoN. Later-on he's then chip leader and can afford to spew a little equity to give the second SS a pass and target you for revenge reasons. Is this ideal poker? Certainly not. Does it cross the line into cheating territory? Obviously you think otherwise, but I'd say, "no, it's part of the game".

TBH, I'm surprised that you haven't seen this kind-of thing more frequently if you play DoNs in any kind of volume. I've drifted away from DoNs to standard STTs over the last year, but when DoNs were my main game I saw this kind of thing too many times to count. Two players get into a chat pissing match, they make obviously poor plays just to target each other and continue ranting at each other until one of them is out. Happens very, very frequently.

 

[FITEMAN]

I wouldn't expect too much help from Merge Support. I have had to contact them twice. Both times I sent HHs and screen shots of mistakes they have made and both times I received the requisite form letter saying they bwould investigate and get back to me. Both times they said that they made no error.
The 1st time was on Black Chip Poker when they just opened. I went all in on the bubble. there were 3 players in, which created a side pot which I won, 2 of us were all in and I won the side pot keeplng me after the bubble broke. I continued to play until 9 other players busted in front of me. To my surprise there was no popup saying how much I won and what place I finished. So I checked the standings and they said that I was the bubble boy. I couldn't believe it. Every time I would try to restate my case, the would just keep saying that they were sorry and if I ever had another problem, tey will be glad to investigate it for me. They were SO WRONG and they just would not admit their mistake.
The 2nd time was on Carbon but not so big of an issue. But Merge Support's response was a (Carbon) copy of the replies I received from my first problem.
I have given up on Merge Support. Now I just keep my fingers crossed and hope everything runs smooth. Has anyone else had problems with Merge support?

 

[KoRnholio]

There is far too much incentive to collude in Double or Nothing sngs and people know it. There is no doubt that it does happen.

pokerstars had so many issues with people colluding in DONs that they changed the format. From an even 20%/20%/20%/20%/20% payout structure to the current one where when the 6th player is eliminated you get paid back your entry fee plus an amount based on your remaining chipstack.

 

[tbdbitl]

... Don't get mad, get even. ...

Some times getting even never stops.

Player A : uses clock excessively
Player B : tells player A he is his target. (somehow misclicks fold or check fold)
player A: Oh yeah I'm telling Mom!

 

[MediaBLITZ]

Some times getting even never stops.

Player A : uses clock excessively
Player B : tells player A he is his target. (somehow misclicks fold or check fold)
player A: Oh yeah I'm telling Mom!

True - have to be sure to walk the line between that and tilting.

I was very happy to have a guy I have seen at many tourney's (and I am sure he has seen me) basically call me out. Though we have been in many tourney's together we had never really mixed it up. He is a LAG LMJ (loud mouth jerk) that ended up on my right hand side. I wasn't too thrilled about it as it sure interrupted my usual game at this place with a bunch of tight nits. So he was true to form - raising with anything (hit boats early with 74o and 64o) and showing all his winners (dumb ass). Telling us all stories of what and incredible player he was. He controlled and dominated the table with hands and personality. So I just waited for a chance to collect bullets. To make a long story short I waited for my monster hands and let him fire away (he figures he can push anyone off a hand) - the first hand he got involved in had him handing the chip lead to me since he decided to 4 barrel his 88 vs my JJ. I just kept flatting as he escalated the betting each round and took $5500 off him (starting stacks were $8000). He got very quiet after that. A couple guys at the break thanked me for shutting him up.

After about the third hand I took off of him I heard him mutter, "You, sir, are my new nemesis." Waited some more then knocked him out when he shoved A3o on my QQ.

When he left the whole table thought I was a hero.

My point? This is the flip side of the coin - this guy got his ass handed to him by moi. He is not going to forget that and I can be sure he will be looking for me in the future. The next time we are seated together I need to be aware of that fact. He will do one of three things -
1) play his same game as if not affected by my ending his table domination (not likely)
2) escalate his aggression against me and try to bully me more (very likely)
3) back off, give me respect and play smarter (not as likely as #2)

Probably more important than having your own get even list is discerning whose list you ended up on and remembering that.

 

[RamdeeBen]

So, what did carbon have to say after all?