Thinking in Ranges (Day 3 Course Discussion)

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ruffcut68

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Thinking in ranges with a little help to adjust ranges in the thought process instead of projecting my range onto what I think the opponent has and learn how to range villain properly. Great Advice ..looking forward to transforming my game into a winning on.
 
M1n1GuN777

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I read the forum and more and more I feel like a mouse among pythons. I'm still ashamed of my previous game. I used to think that professional players were just lucky, but such constant analysis deserves respect. Today I will try to put this lesson into practice. Thanks again for the lesson.
 
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ykm930

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This is vital concept. Maybe in the future we'll see that some hands help our range, and some hands help the villain's range sort of concepts.
 
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AcesHighAGMA

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Another MASSIVE eye opener for me, I really never thought to keep an eye on my range as others will, but paying attention to all other players ranges. It's something I would only worry about myself, and never even think how others would play long term.
 
jeambeam

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many player that we have to remember their range. most of them i pick them and and then i used our online poker HUD to maked them and write what is their ranges for playing, specially when they are going all in. i wrote what are they used to all in. and then i put them on the category file in HUD part of TAG / LAG / LP/ TP. so that after we changes the table and met them again in another table or tournament i already had their ranges recorded
 
Wolfchamp

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I'm not sure if it has been mentioned before, but I believe that page 14 may have a mistake with the expanded range.

The page explains that the range "AJ+, ATs+, KQo, QJs+, 77+" expands to include "AJo, AQo, AKo, ATs, AJs, AQs, AKs, QJs, KJs, KQs, 77, 88, 99, TT, JJ, QQ, KK, AA". KQo seems to be missing from that expansion. I may also not be understanding it correctly so correct me if I am wrong.

Also, wouldn't it be clearer to abbreviate this range as "AJo+, ATs+, KQo, KJs+, QJs, 77+"?
 
christovam

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Today we will discuss Thinking in Ranges.

If you have not yet read Day 3 and watched the video for Day 3 - take a few minutes now to do that and then come back here to discuss it.

Thinking in Ranges

This is one of my favorite chapters in the ebook - and the video is awesome too. Understanding that you don't need to know exactly what your opponent has - but just need a range of hands - takes your game to a new level.

Let's talk about this and don't forget - Katie and Collin are available to answer your questions about thinking in ranges.

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The course is very good. I have doubts about some hands. The KJs is one of them. From what position can I use it from a deep stack.
 
hilary antonik filho

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I liked it more on day 3, online I have a lot of difficulty analyzing and imposing my game, but now I will have more sense to apply the knowledge acquired since the class on day 1
 
jonaselloco

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Very good lesson on the ranges Day 3.
For me, the villain's rank is extremely tight, especially knowing that there is a raise in the hand, a bet of 3 from a player like Eloy with 79 BB and the villain goes all in. Without a doubt this bad boy doesn't want to steal the blind, this villain is wearing all his pointy boots to hunt down Eloy.
For me, the villain's rank is in KK AA AKs of those 3 variants doesn't work out for me.
If it were a bluff of the villain, it could be considered a 4bet, but such a brutal allin tells me that the villain comes with very bad intentions.
And Eloy calling that minimum allin QQ+ AQs AKs AKo.
Excuse me, I hope to make myself understood, because I have to translate the book and try to translate it into the video, but I understand the situation. It really is a very interesting topic.
Let's go for lesson 4
Regards Collin, Katie and Debi
 
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How can I practice "thinking in ranges"? During games I don't have enough time to think about it.
 
Argonaut

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How can I practice "thinking in ranges"? During games I don't have enough time to think about it.
Maybe you could try to think about the ranges of remaining players in hands after you choose to fold, since you are no longer concerned with your own cards at that point? Just a thought.
 
Andyreas

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Maybe you could try to think about the ranges of remaining players in hands after you choose to fold, since you are no longer concerned with your own cards at that point? Just a thought.
Nice thought!

I also do that sometimes and very often surprised what they show in the end. 🤣
 
jonaselloco

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How can I practice "thinking in ranges"? During games I don't have enough time to think about it.
Hello Bruno dear friend
Well, before your statement I tell you this, in an MTT you should not only think about ranges but you should think about everything. Even when you don't play hands you must analyze the situation at your table, positions, opponents, strategies, everything.
I'll tell you how I understood the issue of ranges, which has even helped me to fold, and I'm going to explain a situation that happened to me in an MTT a couple of weeks ago.
Before commenting on the situation I will tell you that I totally agree with my brother Andyreas, because many times when you see your opponent's cards later you want to kill yourself, but in general the situation of the ranges is very effective for us.
Let's assume this situation.
of all the players at the table you know that there is a player that although he is not super aggressive, you know well that when he makes a raise it is because his cards are to be feared.
In the MTT I open from UTG with KK and mini-raise. From MP 1 villain 3bets and everyone folds until the situation comes back to me.
At that time I already assumed that his range was between QQ KK AKs AA not much more than that.
So, since I have the strongest 2nd hand, I 4bet around there assuming that this player could have a JJ or 1010, which is also a fairly common play in which they make you 3bet on a miniraise. So I said to myself, if he usually has QQ in that situation, they make a call and see the flop if you get the set, although I really had my serious doubts about this, especially considering that German friends are very safe and firm playing.
But this villain, seeing the situation directly, went all in, so there I already placed his rank only in AA.
I thought for a long time, and folded. As at the table politely before a good play we greeted each other with Nice hand or Very nice hand and Thank you, when he saw that I folded as a courtesy he showed me his cards when he saw that I thought too much, and in truth he had AA in his hands, To whom I thanked him and told him that I had thought a lot because I had KK and he answered me with a """woooww nice fold"
Well, I hope this example of what I at least learned from the course class on ranges will help you.
The ranges for me is to see according to the bet of the villain and how he plays at the table, understand what possibility of cards he has in his hand to beat you, and if it is necessary to make the decision to fold to stay alive in the tournament.
Hopefully it will help you Brazilian friend Bruno.
A big hug...Carlos:):):):giggle::giggle::giggle:
 
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Bruno Yudi

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Maybe you could try to think about the ranges of remaining players in hands after you choose to fold, since you are no longer concerned with your own cards at that point? Just a thought.
That's a great tip. Thanks man.
 
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Bruno Yudi

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Hello Bruno dear friend
Well, before your statement I tell you this, in an MTT you should not only think about ranges but you should think about everything. Even when you don't play hands you must analyze the situation at your table, positions, opponents, strategies, everything.
I'll tell you how I understood the issue of ranges, which has even helped me to fold, and I'm going to explain a situation that happened to me in an MTT a couple of weeks ago.
Before commenting on the situation I will tell you that I totally agree with my brother Andyreas, because many times when you see your opponent's cards later you want to kill yourself, but in general the situation of the ranges is very effective for us.
Let's assume this situation.
of all the players at the table you know that there is a player that although he is not super aggressive, you know well that when he makes a raise it is because his cards are to be feared.
In the MTT I open from UTG with KK and mini-raise. From MP 1 villain 3bets and everyone folds until the situation comes back to me.
At that time I already assumed that his range was between QQ KK AKs AA not much more than that.
So, since I have the strongest 2nd hand, I 4bet around there assuming that this player could have a JJ or 1010, which is also a fairly common play in which they make you 3bet on a miniraise. So I said to myself, if he usually has QQ in that situation, they make a call and see the flop if you get the set, although I really had my serious doubts about this, especially considering that German friends are very safe and firm playing.
But this villain, seeing the situation directly, went all in, so there I already placed his rank only in AA.
I thought for a long time, and folded. As at the table politely before a good play we greeted each other with Nice hand or Very nice hand and Thank you, when he saw that I folded as a courtesy he showed me his cards when he saw that I thought too much, and in truth he had AA in his hands, To whom I thanked him and told him that I had thought a lot because I had KK and he answered me with a """woooww nice fold"
Well, I hope this example of what I at least learned from the course class on ranges will help you.
The ranges for me is to see according to the bet of the villain and how he plays at the table, understand what possibility of cards he has in his hand to beat you, and if it is necessary to make the decision to fold to stay alive in the tournament.
Hopefully it will help you Brazilian friend Bruno.
A big hug...Carlos:):):):giggle::giggle::giggle:
Hi Carlos, I always appreciate the experience you share in the forums .
I will keep that in mind for sure.

Thanks.
 
ipagan

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Well, before your statement I tell you this, in an MTT you should not only think about ranges but you should think about everything. Even when you don't play hands you must analyze the situation at your table, positions, opponents, strategies, everything.
That's 100% true story, but not so easy to use while playing 3-4-5-129 tables/tournaments at once :). But I guess notes on opps can help with that - no need to analyze like every move, but in the situation when opp made a good move or bad move you may take a note and on next deal or next tournament you'll have something to start of.
 
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FrizzaoR

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I just started my course, ill get there soon to understand better all range situations
 
jonaselloco

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Hi Carlos, I always appreciate the experience you share in the forums .
I will keep that in mind for sure.

Thanks.
You have nothing to thank brother.
Whenever possible, we should help each other.
greetings friend:):):):giggle::giggle::giggle:
 
jonaselloco

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That's 100% true story, but not so easy to use while playing 3-4-5-129 tables/tournaments at once :). But I guess notes on opps can help with that - no need to analyze like every move, but in the situation when opp made a good move or bad move you may take a note and on next deal or next tournament you'll have something to start of.
Hello brother
If you look, you're right about something, at least I don't play more than one MTT at a time unless I write down in another one and it appears on the screen, that is, I don't play more than 2 MTTs at a time.
I don't play cash tables either, if I do it in SNG.
Regarding the notes, really look thank God and despite my age (I am 54 years old) my memory works very well for me, and I try to register hands at the tables, and register opponents only by memorizing. I play in poker stars, I don't have player notes, if I label the players according to a chosen color, those that I consider good players already know that when they enter an MTT that I enter I must be careful. I also include the lamplighters, the bingo players, the polite players who congratulate you for a good play, with one color, and the friends with another color.
Regarding what I consider to make a good bankroll, I think that the best thing is not to play several games together on the screen, but a good quality game. For example, yesterday I finished 4th in a PS Hot 0.55, the tournament lasted 6 hours and I won US$15. The issue is not the profit that logically helps me to add, but the issue is that in the 6 hours tournament I will tell you what hands came to me to play and I made good differences AKs (3 times) AKo (3 times) KK (1 time) JJ (1 time) 1010 (1 time) 88 (2 times) 77 (1 time) 66 (1 once) then the rest of the hands I played with the considered junk hands, depending on the situation of the table.
With this I want to tell you that in an MTT it is very difficult for AA to come to you 5 or 6 times (for example yesterday it did not come to me in the entire tournament), nor do I want to say that with AA you always win. But many times you must defend yourself with what you have.
For example yesterday on a showdown of 249JK I paid another player a medium bet with 33 and I beat him, I felt that he was bluffing me and I actually had A2 in hand.
In other words, the analysis of the table, of the players, is very important my friend, it is something that is generally learned by playing live.
That's why I don't multi-table tournaments on my laptop, it pays me much more to play a well-analyzed MTT.
I think the gain is in quality not quantity.
greetings friend:):):):giggle::giggle::giggle:
 

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ipagan

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Hello brother
If you look, you're right about something, at least I don't play more than one MTT at a time unless I write down in another one and it appears on the screen, that is, I don't play more than 2 MTTs at a time.
I don't play cash tables either, if I do it in SNG.
Regarding the notes, really look thank God and despite my age (I am 54 years old) my memory works very well for me, and I try to register hands at the tables, and register opponents only by memorizing. I play in Poker Stars, I don't have player notes, if I label the players according to a chosen color, those that I consider good players already know that when they enter an MTT that I enter I must be careful. I also include the lamplighters, the bingo players, the polite players who congratulate you for a good play, with one color, and the friends with another color.
Regarding what I consider to make a good bankroll, I think that the best thing is not to play several games together on the screen, but a good quality game. For example, yesterday I finished 4th in a PS Hot 0.55, the tournament lasted 6 hours and I won US$15. The issue is not the profit that logically helps me to add, but the issue is that in the 6 hours tournament I will tell you what hands came to me to play and I made good differences AKs (3 times) AKo (3 times) KK (1 time) JJ (1 time) 1010 (1 time) 88 (2 times) 77 (1 time) 66 (1 once) then the rest of the hands I played with the considered junk hands, depending on the situation of the table.
With this I want to tell you that in an MTT it is very difficult for AA to come to you 5 or 6 times (for example yesterday it did not come to me in the entire tournament), nor do I want to say that with AA you always win. But many times you must defend yourself with what you have.
For example yesterday on a showdown of 249JK I paid another player a medium bet with 33 and I beat him, I felt that he was bluffing me and I actually had A2 in hand.
In other words, the analysis of the table, of the players, is very important my friend, it is something that is generally learned by playing live.
That's why I don't multi-table tournaments on my laptop, it pays me much more to play a well-analyzed MTT.
I think the gain is in quality not quantity.
greetings friend:):):):giggle::giggle::giggle:
Greetings 👋 Yeah I understand your position and that makes a big sence actually. My point is a bit diferent from this, I'll try to explain:

When you play multiple tables you:

1) encreasing your expected value of dealed hands. This might be a simple idea - you can be unlucky in one tournament and very lucky in the other at the same moment of time. On 1 tour you'll play for example 1000 hands and on 2 tours you'll play 2000 hands. The expectation of getting "playable hands/situations" is much more likely to appear during 2000 hands, right? And you can play one tournament like a poker god, but then lose all-in with AA to 52 :p:p and tournaments ends. But poker math works onlyon a distance, if you will go all-in million times with AA you will win for 80% of the times. So you play 1 tournament, than you will just lose and go to the 20% of the statistics and if you play 5 tours and get AA and go all-in, then most likely you will double your stackin 4 of them and lose just 1 of them? This leads to the next point:

2 ) you have a greater margin for error. When playing 1 tour the price of an error is too big. You lose and that's it. While playing multiple tours you feel more safety and freedom, what is improtant in poker too - not to exaggerate the importance of every deal. That's like with the bankroll. If you have 100 buy-ins that's nothing scary or bad to lose 4 tournaments and get to the prizes in the 5th.

3) Faster learning process. If you play 1 table you are more concentrated, that's true. But when you play multiple tables you are simply playing more and more situations, more and more deals and maybe that's the most important profit you can get, while growing on limits. Imagine if you could read 5 books at a one time, wouldn't it be ultra super cool?

4) Taking notes on opps is the way to know and remember you opponents. Some can thing that the number of people playing in the tournaments is unlimited, but it is not. When you play multiple tours and just taking notes on your opps and marking them with colors you will faster know most of the people who are playing the same limits. For example you play 1 tour and taking notes, and remembering your opponents and that's good for this particular tournament, not a word about it. But when will you meet them next time? Maybe even never! So you put too much effort into the situation right here right now. It can help you to win the tour, but not guarntee that at all. And next tour you'll need to do the same thing. But if you play mulpiple tables and just taking notes (not reaaly like biography of the player haha) of what he did in this situation and in that situation and you do it on all 5 tables, what is the probability that you will meet someone from them? I think it grows exponentially. Example of such note - player opened K5o from the UTG position. Just that one point will say that probably that is an amateur player who plays any "beautiful" hand from any position, right? And you will play more careful against him. And next time if you'll see him and he will make another interesting descision (goes all-in with KJs for example) you will add this information to your nate and so on and on. And when you play every day 5 tables and here and there making notes and marking players all the time, will you know your opps faster than just playing 1 table? I think yes.

So. My point that poker loves distance in all cases. Mulptiple tables give you exponential growth in every aspect. What if you will play 5 tables every day for a year or 1 table? Where will you learn faster and have more opportunities to win?

p.s. playing multiple tables doesn't mean to play ultra fast and don't think. Anyway most of the times you just fold :D:D. But if you have 1 critical situation that you need to think on - that's not a big deal, you just play this situation and don't touch anything on other tables, that's totally fine, you''ll just"sit out" for a couple of deals and auto fold your hands. So you will have time and opportunity to think well when it's needed.

SO, that is my opinion on that ;)
 
jonaselloco

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Greetings 👋 Yeah I understand your position and that makes a big sence actually. My point is a bit diferent from this, I'll try to explain:

When you play multiple tables you:

1) encreasing your expected value of dealed hands. This might be a simple idea - you can be unlucky in one tournament and very lucky in the other at the same moment of time. On 1 tour you'll play for example 1000 hands and on 2 tours you'll play 2000 hands. The expectation of getting "playable hands/situations" is much more likely to appear during 2000 hands, right? And you can play one tournament like a poker god, but then lose all-in with AA to 52 :p:p and tournaments ends. But poker math works onlyon a distance, if you will go all-in million times with AA you will win for 80% of the times. So you play 1 tournament, than you will just lose and go to the 20% of the statistics and if you play 5 tours and get AA and go all-in, then most likely you will double your stackin 4 of them and lose just 1 of them? This leads to the next point:

2 ) you have a greater margin for error. When playing 1 tour the price of an error is too big. You lose and that's it. While playing multiple tours you feel more safety and freedom, what is improtant in poker too - not to exaggerate the importance of every deal. That's like with the bankroll. If you have 100 buy-ins that's nothing scary or bad to lose 4 tournaments and get to the prizes in the 5th.

3) Faster learning process. If you play 1 table you are more concentrated, that's true. But when you play multiple tables you are simply playing more and more situations, more and more deals and maybe that's the most important profit you can get, while growing on limits. Imagine if you could read 5 books at a one time, wouldn't it be ultra super cool?

4) Taking notes on opps is the way to know and remember you opponents. Some can thing that the number of people playing in the tournaments is unlimited, but it is not. When you play multiple tours and just taking notes on your opps and marking them with colors you will faster know most of the people who are playing the same limits. For example you play 1 tour and taking notes, and remembering your opponents and that's good for this particular tournament, not a word about it. But when will you meet them next time? Maybe even never! So you put too much effort into the situation right here right now. It can help you to win the tour, but not guarntee that at all. And next tour you'll need to do the same thing. But if you play mulpiple tables and just taking notes (not reaaly like biography of the player haha) of what he did in this situation and in that situation and you do it on all 5 tables, what is the probability that you will meet someone from them? I think it grows exponentially. Example of such note - player opened K5o from the UTG position. Just that one point will say that probably that is an amateur player who plays any "beautiful" hand from any position, right? And you will play more careful against him. And next time if you'll see him and he will make another interesting descision (goes all-in with KJs for example) you will add this information to your nate and so on and on. And when you play every day 5 tables and here and there making notes and marking players all the time, will you know your opps faster than just playing 1 table? I think yes.

So. My point that poker loves distance in all cases. Mulptiple tables give you exponential growth in every aspect. What if you will play 5 tables every day for a year or 1 table? Where will you learn faster and have more opportunities to win?

p.s. playing multiple tables doesn't mean to play ultra fast and don't think. Anyway most of the times you just fold :D:D. But if you have 1 critical situation that you need to think on - that's not a big deal, you just play this situation and don't touch anything on other tables, that's totally fine, you''ll just"sit out" for a couple of deals and auto fold your hands. So you will have time and opportunity to think well when it's needed.

SO, that is my opinion on that ;)
I understand you perfectly brother.
It's just different points of view ours.
I at least believe that learning does not come from playing in 5/10 or 1000 tables, but rather comes from playing in 1 and getting the most out of that situation.
In other words, as I told you, quality versus quantity.
Regarding the books, and if there are many people who read more than one book at the same time, the question is.... what remains of each book they read???
They are different opinions, which never takes away from the fact that you can have the truth or I can have it, or maybe in the form of the game we both have the truth.
Nobody knows brother, only time will know.
Cheers:):):):giggle::giggle::giggle:
 
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