Thinking in Ranges (Day 3 Course Discussion)

Debi

Debi

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Today we will discuss Thinking in Ranges.

If you have not yet read Day 3 and watched the video for Day 3 - take a few minutes now to do that and then come back here to discuss it.

Thinking in Ranges

This is one of my favorite chapters in the ebook - and the video is awesome too. Understanding that you don't need to know exactly what your opponent has - but just need a range of hands - takes your game to a new level.

Let's talk about this and don't forget - Katie and Collin are available to answer your questions about thinking in ranges.

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onecardsteve

onecardsteve

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Lesson 2 and 3 go together, this is one area I need to improve on, but as I state in lesson 2, today's play is so different to put someone on a hand range pre flop where they open more hands today. They limp in with Aces, Kings etc,the flop can give some indication of what is in their hands, but... if the hand doesn't go to show down , your evaluation of their cards can make it difficult to see if their hand ranges are correct. Their bets on the flop gives you the funneling of their hands.
 
Debi

Debi

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Lesson 2 and 3 go together, this is one area I need to improve on, but as I state in lesson 2, today's play is so different to put someone on a hand range pre flop where they open more hands today. They limp in with Aces, Kings etc,the flop can give some indication of what is in their hands, but... if the hand doesn't go to show down , your evaluation of their cards can make it difficult to see if their hand ranges are correct. Their bets on the flop gives you the funneling of their hands.

I think you will notice as you go through the course that each day flows so well into the next one.
 
Dailon Arroyo Blandon

Dailon Arroyo Blandon

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What an interesting and important topic .... I am going to take the time to see those videos ... this about the ranges is extremely important to know and apply it well ...!
 
Luvart

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Finished Day #3.

I put villain on AA-QQ, maybe Jacks, and AK (with means suited and offsuit). We are talking about nearly 70bb preflop shove, so his range is pretty tight for sure.

-The widest range I would put villain is: AA-99, AK-AQ, AJs, and maybe A10s.
-The tightest range I would put him includes all premium pairs only, so: AA-QQ.

Tomorrow with Day #4.
 
Katie Dozier

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Finished Day #3.

I put villain on AA-QQ, maybe Jacks, and AK (with means suited and offsuit). We are talking about nearly 70bb preflop shove, so his range is pretty tight for sure.

-The widest range I would put villain is: AA-99, AK-AQ, AJs, and maybe A10s.
-The tightest range I would put him includes all premium pairs only, so: AA-QQ.

Tomorrow with Day #4.


Great work! [emoji7]
 
Collin Moshman

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Nice work on the day 3 quiz Luvart!
 
tagece

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I would put the villain in a QQ+, AQ+ range. But it depends on the villain too. If he is a very loose agrresive or kind of a maniac player, I would expand that range to AJ+, JJ+
 
Polytarp

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At least ten years ago a friend gave me a copy of ``High Roller.`` In that movie as well as a few articles I saw how card location was important to Ungar regarding how people played Gin (Bridge has this component also). At the Bellagio I also observed how Ivey, Reese, Brunson ..played. Assuming no-one at that table made mistakes it would be hard to pick out who the winner of the day would be and I would put the winner as having the best run of cards.

blackjack has aspects similar to poker game card ranges where depending upon the number of decks, rules, numbers of spots played (cross correlated bets), deck penetration, counting method...memory plays an important role. For example, if so-and-so played at that table with these people, in this position, with this chip stack at this blind level how often did this person protect his blind (with what bet size and against who) and how often did this person try to steal blinds (with what bet size and against who). Not only must the card range be determined but the anticipated bet size as well predicated upon the circumstance...early, mid, bubble.

For example, in 10 handed NL games near the bubble where I have enough chips to squeak through or bubble out I`ve had these scenarios, five or six of the ten are in the pot with big bets and I`m looking at a small pocket or small one off connector...I would go all in because I`m assuming all the high cards are taken and my odds of hitting a small monster are OK; or, if there are three or four in the pot pre-flop and they are betting I will fold my AA and squeak through..the value of my AA decreases dramatically if I can`t get anyone out of the pot with a smaller chip stack.

Today I played a $2.20 8H NLH MTT at party poker where I had KK and the only other person in the pot had A10u because of my initial large protection bet. After the flop I went all in since no Ace showed as well but double colors and another King did. I had the second largest stack and this person had the largest. This person went all-in and caught four cards that completed a flush beating my trip Kings. So my question becomes, knowing that I had the best hand post-flop and knowing that a potential runner-runner would take me out, how should I have reasonably bet to either push the other person out and/or save myself. Further, what software would provide the best analysis of this scenario either stand-alone or ensemble..PokerStove, SNG Wizard, PT4..or other.
 
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jeanpierre1279

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The interesting thing to add in this lesson to put the villain in a range would be if the video could inform how we take note of the villain for a later reading because we often change tables and find the villain in the middle or end of the tournament, also because the number of hands is great for memorizing all the relevant moves to know if the villain is regular or not.
 
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jeanpierre1279

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At least ten years ago a friend gave me a copy of ``High Roller.`` In that movie as well as a few articles I saw how card location was important to Ungar regarding how people played Gin (Bridge has this component also). At the Bellagio I also observed how Ivey, Reese, Brunson ..played. Assuming no-one at that table made mistakes it would be hard to pick out who the winner of the day would be and I would put the winner as having the best run of cards.

Blackjack has aspects similar to poker game card ranges where depending upon the number of decks, rules, numbers of spots played (cross correlated bets), deck penetration, counting method...memory plays an important role. For example, if so-and-so played at that table with these people, in this position, with this chip stack at this blind level how often did this person protect his blind (with what bet size and against who) and how often did this person try to steal blinds (with what bet size and against who). Not only must the card range be determined but the anticipated bet size as well predicated upon the circumstance...early, mid, bubble.

For example, in 10 handed NL games near the bubble where I have enough chips to squeak through or bubble out I`ve had these scenarios, five or six of the ten are in the pot with big bets and I`m looking at a small pocket or small one off connector...I would go all in because I`m assuming all the high cards are taken and my odds of hitting a small monster are OK; or, if there are three or four in the pot pre-flop and they are betting I will fold my AA and squeak through..the value of my AA decreases dramatically if I can`t get anyone out of the pot with a smaller chip stack.

Today I played a $2.20 8H NLH MTT at Party Poker where I had KK and the only other person in the pot had A10u because of my initial large protection bet. After the flop I went all in since no Ace showed as well but double colors and another King did. I had the second largest stack and this person had the largest. This person went all-in and caught four cards that completed a flush beating my trip Kings. So my question becomes, knowing that I had the best hand post-flop and knowing that a potential runner-runner would take me out, how should I have reasonably bet to either push the other person out and/or save myself. Further, what software would provide the best analysis of this scenario either stand-alone or ensemble..PokerStove, SNG Wizard, PT4..or other.

if you were nuts post-flop I believe you made the correct move, would it be impossible for you to fold with the best hand, otherwise which hand would you play? The only other possible option in this tournament I believe it would be to place a smaller bet and wait for the villain's call but in the case of all in it's complicated because a flush draw and the villain with the biggest stack he is not risking his life in the tournament so the correct one it would be to see if he was aggressive or tight, that is, just with the information of the hands for me it would be all in too because it could be that he didn't even have flush draws ... it would be good for a specialist to analyze this
 
NWPatriot

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The interesting thing to add in this lesson to put the villain in a range would be if the video could inform how we take note of the villain for a later reading because we often change tables and find the villain in the middle or end of the tournament, also because the number of hands is great for memorizing all the relevant moves to know if the villain is regular or not.


If you are not using HUD's to provide this info, i find it helpful to put notes on players that include how many pots they enter (%) and how many times they fold to pressure (%) when they do enter. This takes some observational skills but will give you an indication of their average starting range and how their playing "nature".

For instance, if i play with a guy that generally plays 15% of the hands - he is fairly tight, and he likely plays 5% in early and 25% in late positions. If a player has been playing 25% on average, then he is a little looser of course, and maybe plays 15% early and 35-40% in late position. These stats will vary from game to game because the cards vary and because the dynamics of each table are different. But this can certainly help with getting started in each new session or new table.
 
NWPatriot

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One of my biggest frustrations with range reading is removing too many hands from the range based on a passive action.

If we consider a starting range for a player and automatically remove QQ+ from their range because they didn't bet or raise, we may just be setting ourselves up for disaster. Many players are intentionally deceptive and may check some of these hands. It may be incorrect to not get value now, but I am sure they are thinking they will get the chips later in the hand.

So, as I mull these ranges over in my head, I just go around in circles never being sure of what they have or what they don't have because a check or a raise doesn't mean nearly as much as I would like it to. With that being said, i find myself being very wary of thinning out my opponents range and tend to trust the starting range and not so much trust the actions unless it is very clear.

Any tips for getting out of this quagmire??
 
Collin Moshman

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Jeanpierre, great feedback, thanks for posting this idea which we'll definitely try to incorporate that concept in future content.

Poly, that's a very interesting blackjack parallel!

NW, just remember that it's not an exact science. Your opponent might just call with high pocket pairs if he's passive or trapping. You're only making the best guesses you can based on prior action and knowledge of your opponent. Don't be hard on yourself if you get it wrong because like you said, players will do the unexpected very often :)
 
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natelearnspoker

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I’m still struggling to think in ranges, but the concept of ranges has helped me further hone my poker instincts so I have a feel for when I’m ahead and when I’m behind.

I find that players in freerolls and low buy ins don’t think in ranges and play all hands in a similar way. While tough, by responding with aggression, one can usually handle it. With more skilled players, ranges are super useful because they’re a bit more rational.
 
Katie Dozier

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I’m still struggling to think in ranges, but the concept of ranges has helped me further hone my poker instincts so I have a feel for when I’m ahead and when I’m behind.

I find that players in freerolls and low buy ins don’t think in ranges and play all hands in a similar way. While tough, by responding with aggression, one can usually handle it. With more skilled players, ranges are super useful because they’re a bit more rational.


Thinking in ranges didn’t come naturally to me either at first, but perhaps even more than most things in poker, I think it’s a case of the old cliche “practice makes perfect.”

And it sounds like you’re doing a great job with it already, way to go! :)
 
PsychoVas

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I still wait for the Icmizer lesson...
As for the quiz, probably a premium hand, unless he knows that the button player has already watched the first lesson and is gonna try to utilize his position in a squeeze. In that case I wouls add 10s, Jacks and AJo.
 
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ronn6583

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The main idea: During a poker hand, one hand remains unchanged, while for our opponents the ranges change with each new action.
I understand correctly?
It is important for us to narrow the range of the opponent after each action, evaluating the strength of our hand in relation to the possible range (the most likely combinations).
In the last example, both opponents have large stacks, the beginning of the tournament.
In such a situation, calling all-in makes sense with KK+. The opponent likely: JJ +; AQ +
 
F

fernando21

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Poker has evolved to the point where skilled players no longer think in terms of single hands, they think in terms of the range of hands they could have or could make their opponent think they have versus the range of hands they think their opponent has. The more accurately you can pinpoint an opponent’s range, the more sophisticated decisions you can make and the more accurate they will be.
 
Collin Moshman

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The main idea: During a poker hand, one hand remains unchanged, while for our opponents the ranges change with each new action.
I understand correctly?
It is important for us to narrow the range of the opponent after each action, evaluating the strength of our hand in relation to the possible range (the most likely combinations).
In the last example, both opponents have large stacks, the beginning of the tournament.
In such a situation, calling all-in makes sense with KK+. The opponent likely: JJ +; AQ +


Yes exactly -- our hand stays the same, while our opponent has a range that becomes further defined with each action they take. Your description is exactly right :)
 
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pip77

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My answer to the quiz on ranges are;

AK, QQ+

Tightest range - Kk+

Widest range - AJ+ 99+

I am trying to work on hand reading and ranges in general and find flopzilla or poker cruncher App a good resource to use.

Loving the course!
 
magistrant420

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a player from the HJ position most likely had an average pocket pair of 77-TT. That's why he raised 3 bb. the CO player wanted to steal the blinds and all-in. His range may be a favorite. from AT +, Kxs, Qxs, JT s \ o
 
Katie Dozier

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My answer to the quiz on ranges are;

AK, QQ+

Tightest range - Kk+

Widest range - AJ+ 99+

I am trying to work on hand reading and ranges in general and find flopzilla or poker cruncher app a good resource to use.

Loving the course!



Great advice and thank you for your kind words! :)
 
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wstclair777

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I really enjoyed Day 3, it was a great lesson. I just barely missed the quiz question, I put the villain on JJ+, AK and AQs so, pretty close. Thanks for the lesson and for getting me to think more about my game.
 
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