Today we will discuss Thinking in Ranges.

If you have not yet read Day 3 and watched the video for Day 3 - take a few minutes now to do that and then come back here to discuss it.

Thinking in Ranges

This is one of my favorite chapters in the ebook - and the video is awesome too. Understanding that you don't need to know exactly what your opponent has - but just need a range of hands - takes your game to a new level.

Let's talk about this and don't forget - Katie and Collin are available to answer your questions about thinking in ranges.

Lesson 2 and 3 go together, this is one area I need to improve on, but as I state in lesson 2, today's play is so different to put someone on a hand range pre flop where they open more hands today. They limp in with Aces, Kings etc,the flop can give some indication of what is in their hands, but... if the hand doesn't go to show down , your evaluation of their cards can make it difficult to see if their hand ranges are correct. Their bets on the flop gives you the funneling of their hands.

Originally Posted by onecardsteve

Lesson 2 and 3 go together, this is one area I need to improve on, but as I state in lesson 2, today's play is so different to put someone on a hand range pre flop where they open more hands today. They limp in with Aces, Kings etc,the flop can give some indication of what is in their hands, but... if the hand doesn't go to show down , your evaluation of their cards can make it difficult to see if their hand ranges are correct. Their bets on the flop gives you the funneling of their hands.

I think you will notice as you go through the course that each day flows so well into the next one.

What an interesting and important topic .... I am going to take the time to see those videos ... this about the ranges is extremely important to know and apply it well ...!

Originally Posted by Dailon Arroyo Blandon

What an interesting and important topic .... I am going to take the time to see those videos ... this about the ranges is extremely important to know and apply it well ...!

Thanks, hope you enjoy!

Finished Day #3.

I put villain on AA-QQ, maybe Jacks, and AK (with means suited and offsuit). We are talking about nearly 70bb preflop shove, so his range is pretty tight for sure.

-The widest range I would put villain is: AA-99, AK-AQ, AJs, and maybe A10s.
-The tightest range I would put him includes all premium pairs only, so: AA-QQ.

Tomorrow with Day #4.

Originally Posted by Luvart

Finished Day #3.

I put villain on AA-QQ, maybe Jacks, and AK (with means suited and offsuit). We are talking about nearly 70bb preflop shove, so his range is pretty tight for sure.

-The widest range I would put villain is: AA-99, AK-AQ, AJs, and maybe A10s.
-The tightest range I would put him includes all premium pairs only, so: AA-QQ.

Tomorrow with Day #4.

Great work!

Nice work on the day 3 quiz Luvart!

I would put the villain in a QQ+, AQ+ range. But it depends on the villain too. If he is a very loose agrresive or kind of a maniac player, I would expand that range to AJ+, JJ+

At least ten years ago a friend gave me a copy of ``High Roller.`` In that movie as well as a few articles I saw how card location was important to Ungar regarding how people played Gin (Bridge has this component also). At the Bellagio I also observed how Ivey, Reese, Brunson ..played. Assuming no-one at that table made mistakes it would be hard to pick out who the winner of the day would be and I would put the winner as having the best run of cards.

Blackjack has aspects similar to poker game card ranges where depending upon the number of decks, rules, numbers of spots played (cross correlated bets), deck penetration, counting method...memory plays an important role. For example, if so-and-so played at that table with these people, in this position, with this chip stack at this blind level how often did this person protect his blind (with what bet size and against who) and how often did this person try to steal blinds (with what bet size and against who). Not only must the card range be determined but the anticipated bet size as well predicated upon the circumstance...early, mid, bubble.

For example, in 10 handed NL games near the bubble where I have enough chips to squeak through or bubble out I`ve had these scenarios, five or six of the ten are in the pot with big bets and I`m looking at a small pocket or small one off connector...I would go all in because I`m assuming all the high cards are taken and my odds of hitting a small monster are OK; or, if there are three or four in the pot pre-flop and they are betting I will fold my AA and squeak through..the value of my AA decreases dramatically if I can`t get anyone out of the pot with a smaller chip stack.

Today I played a $2.20 8H NLH MTT at Party Poker where I had KK and the only other person in the pot had A10u because of my initial large protection bet. After the flop I went all in since no Ace showed as well but double colors and another King did. I had the second largest stack and this person had the largest. This person went all-in and caught four cards that completed a flush beating my trip Kings. So my question becomes, knowing that I had the best hand post-flop and knowing that a potential runner-runner would take me out, how should I have reasonably bet to either push the other person out and/or save myself. Further, what software would provide the best analysis of this scenario either stand-alone or ensemble..PokerStove, SNG Wizard, PT4..or other.

The interesting thing to add in this lesson to put the villain in a range would be if the video could inform how we take note of the villain for a later reading because we often change tables and find the villain in the middle or end of the tournament, also because the number of hands is great for memorizing all the relevant moves to know if the villain is regular or not.

Originally Posted by Polytarp

At least ten years ago a friend gave me a copy of ``High Roller.`` In that movie as well as a few articles I saw how card location was important to Ungar regarding how people played Gin (Bridge has this component also). At the Bellagio I also observed how Ivey, Reese, Brunson ..played. Assuming no-one at that table made mistakes it would be hard to pick out who the winner of the day would be and I would put the winner as having the best run of cards.

Blackjack has aspects similar to poker game card ranges where depending upon the number of decks, rules, numbers of spots played (cross correlated bets), deck penetration, counting method...memory plays an important role. For example, if so-and-so played at that table with these people, in this position, with this chip stack at this blind level how often did this person protect his blind (with what bet size and against who) and how often did this person try to steal blinds (with what bet size and against who). Not only must the card range be determined but the anticipated bet size as well predicated upon the circumstance...early, mid, bubble.

For example, in 10 handed NL games near the bubble where I have enough chips to squeak through or bubble out I`ve had these scenarios, five or six of the ten are in the pot with big bets and I`m looking at a small pocket or small one off connector...I would go all in because I`m assuming all the high cards are taken and my odds of hitting a small monster are OK; or, if there are three or four in the pot pre-flop and they are betting I will fold my AA and squeak through..the value of my AA decreases dramatically if I can`t get anyone out of the pot with a smaller chip stack.

Today I played a $2.20 8H NLH MTT at Party Poker where I had KK and the only other person in the pot had A10u because of my initial large protection bet. After the flop I went all in since no Ace showed as well but double colors and another King did. I had the second largest stack and this person had the largest. This person went all-in and caught four cards that completed a flush beating my trip Kings. So my question becomes, knowing that I had the best hand post-flop and knowing that a potential runner-runner would take me out, how should I have reasonably bet to either push the other person out and/or save myself. Further, what software would provide the best analysis of this scenario either stand-alone or ensemble..PokerStove, SNG Wizard, PT4..or other.

if you were nuts post-flop I believe you made the correct move, would it be impossible for you to fold with the best hand, otherwise which hand would you play? The only other possible option in this tournament I believe it would be to place a smaller bet and wait for the villain's call but in the case of all in it's complicated because a flush draw and the villain with the biggest stack he is not risking his life in the tournament so the correct one it would be to see if he was aggressive or tight, that is, just with the information of the hands for me it would be all in too because it could be that he didn't even have flush draws ... it would be good for a specialist to analyze this

Originally Posted by jeanpierre1279

The interesting thing to add in this lesson to put the villain in a range would be if the video could inform how we take note of the villain for a later reading because we often change tables and find the villain in the middle or end of the tournament, also because the number of hands is great for memorizing all the relevant moves to know if the villain is regular or not.

If you are not using HUD's to provide this info, i find it helpful to put notes on players that include how many pots they enter (%) and how many times they fold to pressure (%) when they do enter. This takes some observational skills but will give you an indication of their average starting range and how their playing "nature".

For instance, if i play with a guy that generally plays 15% of the hands - he is fairly tight, and he likely plays 5% in early and 25% in late positions. If a player has been playing 25% on average, then he is a little looser of course, and maybe plays 15% early and 35-40% in late position. These stats will vary from game to game because the cards vary and because the dynamics of each table are different. But this can certainly help with getting started in each new session or new table.

One of my biggest frustrations with range reading is removing too many hands from the range based on a passive action.

If we consider a starting range for a player and automatically remove QQ+ from their range because they didn't bet or raise, we may just be setting ourselves up for disaster. Many players are intentionally deceptive and may check some of these hands. It may be incorrect to not get value now, but I am sure they are thinking they will get the chips later in the hand.

So, as I mull these ranges over in my head, I just go around in circles never being sure of what they have or what they don't have because a check or a raise doesn't mean nearly as much as I would like it to. With that being said, i find myself being very wary of thinning out my opponents range and tend to trust the starting range and not so much trust the actions unless it is very clear.

Any tips for getting out of this quagmire??

Jeanpierre, great feedback, thanks for posting this idea which we'll definitely try to incorporate that concept in future content.

Poly, that's a very interesting blackjack parallel!

NW, just remember that it's not an exact science. Your opponent might just call with high pocket pairs if he's passive or trapping. You're only making the best guesses you can based on prior action and knowledge of your opponent. Don't be hard on yourself if you get it wrong because like you said, players will do the unexpected very often

I’m still struggling to think in ranges, but the concept of ranges has helped me further hone my poker instincts so I have a feel for when I’m ahead and when I’m behind.

I find that players in freerolls and low buy ins don’t think in ranges and play all hands in a similar way. While tough, by responding with aggression, one can usually handle it. With more skilled players, ranges are super useful because they’re a bit more rational.

Originally Posted by natelearnspoker

I’m still struggling to think in ranges, but the concept of ranges has helped me further hone my poker instincts so I have a feel for when I’m ahead and when I’m behind.

I find that players in freerolls and low buy ins don’t think in ranges and play all hands in a similar way. While tough, by responding with aggression, one can usually handle it. With more skilled players, ranges are super useful because they’re a bit more rational.

Thinking in ranges didn’t come naturally to me either at first, but perhaps even more than most things in poker, I think it’s a case of the old cliche “practice makes perfect.”

And it sounds like you’re doing a great job with it already, way to go!

I still wait for the Icmizer lesson...
As for the quiz, probably a premium hand, unless he knows that the button player has already watched the first lesson and is gonna try to utilize his position in a squeeze. In that case I wouls add 10s, Jacks and AJo.

The main idea: During a poker hand, one hand remains unchanged, while for our opponents the ranges change with each new action.
I understand correctly?
It is important for us to narrow the range of the opponent after each action, evaluating the strength of our hand in relation to the possible range (the most likely combinations).
In the last example, both opponents have large stacks, the beginning of the tournament.
In such a situation, calling all-in makes sense with KK+. The opponent likely: JJ +; AQ +

Poker has evolved to the point where skilled players no longer think in terms of single hands, they think in terms of the range of hands they could have or could make their opponent think they have versus the range of hands they think their opponent has. The more accurately you can pinpoint an opponent’s range, the more sophisticated decisions you can make and the more accurate they will be.

Originally Posted by ronn6583

The main idea: During a poker hand, one hand remains unchanged, while for our opponents the ranges change with each new action.
I understand correctly?
It is important for us to narrow the range of the opponent after each action, evaluating the strength of our hand in relation to the possible range (the most likely combinations).
In the last example, both opponents have large stacks, the beginning of the tournament.
In such a situation, calling all-in makes sense with KK+. The opponent likely: JJ +; AQ +

Yes exactly -- our hand stays the same, while our opponent has a range that becomes further defined with each action they take. Your description is exactly right

My answer to the quiz on ranges are;

AK, QQ+

Tightest range - Kk+

Widest range - AJ+ 99+

I am trying to work on hand reading and ranges in general and find flopzilla or poker cruncher app a good resource to use.

Loving the course!

a player from the HJ position most likely had an average pocket pair of 77-TT. That's why he raised 3 bb. the CO player wanted to steal the blinds and all-in. His range may be a favorite. from AT +, Kxs, Qxs, JT s \ o

Originally Posted by pip77

My answer to the quiz on ranges are;

AK, QQ+

Tightest range - Kk+

Widest range - AJ+ 99+

I am trying to work on hand reading and ranges in general and find flopzilla or poker cruncher app a good resource to use.

Loving the course!

Great advice and thank you for your kind words!

I really enjoyed Day 3, it was a great lesson. I just barely missed the quiz question, I put the villain on JJ+, AK and AQs so, pretty close. Thanks for the lesson and for getting me to think more about my game.

It's funny, maybe I didn't notice myself thinking in ranges because I do it without really analyzing it. You have to be so quick to figure it out as the time clock doesn't really give you time to hum and haw about it.

Through the opponent's actions it is possible to predict what he has or was just bluffing.
Obviously, whoever has 77,88,99,1010, JJ, QQ, KK, AA, behaves very differently than the one who has a J7 or A9, and on the flop we can better predict without holding a connector or a pair.

Oh, wow, I couldn't believe it when I put the Villain on the same range as Collin! I thought maybe I was too wide, so was pretty shocked.

Although I must admit, that at most tables I seem to be playing, they will do this shove with 22 or 23s, lol! I feel so sorry when the initial raiser calls with a monster hand (say KK) to lose to these kinds of idiot push hands; and mad when it happens to me, (although I know I should be pleased, but hey)

Loving the course material so far though - thank you Cardschat!

Thank you .
Very interesting video.
I think that range player hand need experience and practice.
And i think that is a very important step to understand and to win.

There are preflop ranges out there which tell you what you should do facing a raise from a certain position etc. Are these sheets assuming that no one else is in the hand? And what happens if someone else is in the hand, are these "rules" now void?

Originally Posted by Polytarp

Today I played a $2.20 8H NLH MTT at Party Poker where I had KK and the only other person in the pot had A10u because of my initial large protection bet. After the flop I went all in since no Ace showed as well but double colors and another King did. I had the second largest stack and this person had the largest. This person went all-in and caught four cards that completed a flush beating my trip Kings. So my question becomes, knowing that I had the best hand post-flop and knowing that a potential runner-runner would take me out, how should I have reasonably bet to either push the other person out and/or save myself. Further, what software would provide the best analysis of this scenario either stand-alone or ensemble..PokerStove, SNG Wizard, PT4..or other.

I think this description shows just how important the course is. I have limited information on this hand to make a properly informed decision about my thoughts on the hand. All I am left with is that KK is a great hand and even greater when a K hits the flop. It’s still only 3 of a kind! It’s still easily beatable........ There is little information or consideration of the rest of the board or position or relative stack sizes to bets.

Everyone should read this hand and then contemplate how effectively they reflect on the training provided.

Thanks guys.

BB

One of the most important things in poker is getting the open raise ranges well adjusted. This helps us to have less difficulties post-flop. And those who have a support program can take a little more advantage (those who play with multiple screens, for example, in online mode) about who doesn't have it.

Originally Posted by cferdi

Oh, wow, I couldn't believe it when I put the Villain on the same range as Collin! I thought maybe I was too wide, so was pretty shocked.

That's awesome, way to go!

Originally Posted by belizebum

There are preflop ranges out there which tell you what you should do facing a raise from a certain position etc. Are these sheets assuming that no one else is in the hand? And what happens if someone else is in the hand, are these "rules" now void?

I think it depends on the specific chart. The most common type is when you're first in the pot. But for ones that give a range facing prior action, usually you should play the same range or wider if someone else is in too. The reason is because there's now more money in the middle to win, and someone who just calls (instead of reraises) is less likely to be strong.

Keep in mind though, it's difficult to give exact guidelines like this that work well in all situations. (Even though we do try to do it ourselves in this course! )

Haha, great answer..lol. So on to my next question. Sometimes I use HUD software. From the start of a hand it tells me if I have a + or - EV preflop. Let's say I have a - EV based on its calculation, and some one raises, what if my pot odds are excellent, but my EV is negative? What would be the default?

Most site-legal HUDs shouldn't tell you if it's +EV or -EV to play a hand. But if you knew a hand was -EV to play, then you should fold even getting great pot odds.

Day 1 - Chapter 3

This chapter really spoke to me. I am trying really hard to put Villain on a range when playing.

I recall a really nice situation where a hero call won me a really nice pot because I put villain on a range.

Villain bets 3 x BB UTG and action folds to me on the button with 77. which I call and the blinds fold as well. I put villain an a range ATs+. The flop is 9 5 2 rainbow and villain Cbets the same 3 x BB which I call. Turn card is a 2 and villain checks to me and I check as well. At that point, I narrawed villain's range to AT, AJ, AQ, and AK. Then the river card comes 6 and villain bets out a little more that the pot putting my tournament life at risk. I made a hero call and let out a sigh of relief when villain shows AKs.

This was a very memorable hand for me and memories cam floding back after reading this chapter.

Response to video question:

I put eloytuga2015 on pocket pairs TT+ or AQs+. Although I am leaning more to pocket pairs but he can have AQ or AK and that would be reasonable too.

I am appreciating the range thinking so much and intend to keep practicing it as I play.

Good stuff here!

Very good article I liked a lot.
Sometimes poker is decided by luck, but when you read articles like this you realize that there is more than luck in poker.
My game is improving a lot with these articles, thinking about ranges is a very difficult part in poker.

Originally Posted by Collin Moshman

Most site-legal HUDs shouldn't tell you if it's +EV or -EV to play a hand. But if you knew a hand was -EV to play, then you should fold even getting great pot odds.

That's interesting, my HUD tells me every hand..guessing it is using position and actual holdings. ???

What's your HUD Belizebum? There shouldn't be a way for it to tell you if playing the hand will be +EV as far as I know, but happy to check into this.

Originally Posted by Collin Moshman

What's your HUD Belizebum? There shouldn't be a way for it to tell you if playing the hand will be +EV as far as I know, but happy to check into this.

Here are a couple of pictures of HUD and the program's explanation of EV.

tourne.jpg

tourney 1.jpg

tourney2.jpg

Hello again!

This is great! I was looking for a simple lesson to fully understand the ranges part and the thinking process! Well this seems like a simple introduction and I like it!

Thanks again for the knowledge! very excited to finish this book!

gl gl gl

Ranges is simply you trying to work out your opponent's hand, based on any moves you have seen them do.

I love it,because the modern poker is about ranges,manny peaple tell you i put u is AA or KK,that is tottally wrong,other think manny peaple do is to judge a hand by his result, but you have to think in the long term iff my hand beat his rangue in a 60% is an easy call and forget wath was the result because u will be in that stop a lot off times and u will be winning a lot

Originally Posted by belizebum

Here are a couple of pictures of HUD and the program's explanation of EV.

Attachment 270052

Attachment 270053

Attachment 270054

Belize, this looks like a really cool program, but it's not a HUD in the way we're using that term in the book. We mean it to be a program that overlays stats on an online table during a session instead of an away-from-the-table study tool. Sorry we didn't clarify that well in our discussion!

Originally Posted by FF2586

Hello again!

This is great! I was looking for a simple lesson to fully understand the ranges part and the thinking process! Well this seems like a simple introduction and I like it!

Thanks again for the knowledge! very excited to finish this book!

gl gl gl

Thanks FF, we really appreciate that!

Originally Posted by Collin Moshman

Belize, this looks like a really cool program, but it's not a HUD in the way we're using that term in the book. We mean it to be a program that overlays stats on an online table during a session instead of an away-from-the-table study tool. Sorry we didn't clarify that well in our discussion!




Thanks FF, we really appreciate that!

Oh it does that too, I was just showing the part where it shows the EV when playing.

I think this lesson is really valuable, and helps separate good players from bad players. I really need to start thinking more in ranges, because I can see the value that it has. Using ranges really makes your play more accurate I think, more based on fact than just playing your hand

I’m enjoying this course so far. I put the villain on QQ+ so fairly tight but within the range of ranges ��

Thanks Collin and Katie for putting the course together and answering questions.

Peace
Stuart

Originally Posted by Gravy_Police

I’m enjoying this course so far. I put the villain on QQ+ so fairly tight but within the range of ranges ��

Thanks Collin and Katie for putting the course together and answering questions.

Peace
Stuart

+1 I am enjoying this course so far too. I was a bit shocked that by hand range was identical to Collin's though! (JJ+, AK) However, I also note that my answer was from the mindset of theory.

For instance, a friend of mine would play "Any Ace" in this spot (yeah, I know that is a bit too wide for theory but they have trouble folding any Ace they've admitted to me). So if I had live reads or information of my opponent then I would adjust the range accordingly. No information about them, I'd assign something like JJ+, AK range, but if I was playing my friend in this spot: then the range may include adding any Ace hands.

My question for Collin, or Katie (or anyone else informed) is: would adding any Ace to my friend's range be considered "non-congruent", or does "Any Ace" also "make sense" even if not optimal from a theory stand-point?

Originally Posted by Phoenix Wright

+1 I am enjoying this course so far too. I was a bit shocked that by hand range was identical to Collin's though! (JJ+, AK) However, I also note that my answer was from the mindset of theory.

For instance, a friend of mine would play "Any Ace" in this spot (yeah, I know that is a bit too wide for theory but they have trouble folding any Ace they've admitted to me). So if I had live reads or information of my opponent then I would adjust the range accordingly. No information about them, I'd assign something like JJ+, AK range, but if I was playing my friend in this spot: then the range may include adding any Ace hands.

My question for Collin, or Katie (or anyone else informed) is: would adding any Ace to my friend's range be considered "non-congruent", or does "Any Ace" also "make sense" even if not optimal from a theory stand-point?

I’d say you’re friend is playing an incongruent hand range. If you have information that an opponent is using an incongruent hand range then it makes sense to take that into consideration and put him on an incongruent range then play accordingly.