Razz Poker: The who, what, why, when, where, and how of it all

[SGspecial]

Razz does have alot of luck involved but skill is needed as well. Lets say you have a hand but the cards showing look like you couldn't have that great of one, skill would be needed to maximize winnings. Skill is needed to figure out what the other players might have for a high hand. Razz, Stud, draw, Omaha, Badugi are all games of chance, playing the odds more than NL, but they all require some form of skill as well.

Don't kid yourselves: all poker games have a component of luck and component of skill. The only thing that's really debatable is how much luck and how much skill is present in each game. One measure of luck is the variance that is experienced when playing in that game. In other words, the more hands you have to play before the money you actually have won reflects how much you expected to win based on your play, the more luck there is in that game. By this definition, razz has less luck than just about any other form of poker.

 

[S93]

Don't kid yourselves: all poker games have a component of luck and component of skill. The only thing that's really debatable is how much luck and how much skill is present in each game. One measure of luck is the variance that is experienced when playing in that game. In other words, the more hands you have to play before the money you actually have won reflects how much you expected to win based on your play, the more luck there is in that game. By this definition, razz has less luck than just about any other form of poker.

Only mesuremnet of luck in poker imo is:
Short term its all luck
long term its all skill

 

[Jack Daniels]

I have always had a soft spot for that game but don't have a clue when to raise and how much to raise.

Razz is typically spread as a limit game, so generally your only choice is to raise or not. Having said that, Carbon Poker does spread both limit and PL Razz on their cash games (no tournies at all), but their cash games rarely have anyone playing. The most I've seen is when I sat down one time when there were two others playing.

I could probably be persuaded to add more Razz into the Friday night variety games if the interest holds up.

I will be working my backroom mod persuasion tool with you here.

 

[Debi]

Bribes work - I accept cash at pokerstars or Fulltilt if you insist.

 

[santa fe slim]

Compared to hold 'em I guess there is more luck. You have to get to a 5 card hand to have a low hand.
I like the game however.

 

[S93]

Compared to hold 'em I guess there is more luck. You have to get to a 5 card hand to have a low hand.
I like the game however.

Huh?
In Razz u get 7 cards to make the best 5card hand.
In Holdem u get 7 cards to make the best 5card hand.
In holdem you first get 2card,then 3,then 1 and then 1.
In Razz u get 3cards,then 1,then 1,then 1 and then 1.
So how do the cards affect the "luck" aspected?
Not saying there is less/more luck in either game but your statment just doesnt make much sense to me...

 

[Jack Daniels]

Compared to hold 'em I guess there is more luck.

Should we then assume that you also believe playing the lottery is a game of skill?

 

[Ernster86]

There definitely is MORE skill in Razz than Poker.

Poker is based more on luck and playing the "player". A player may go all in, just to scare someone even if they have crap cards. Or you may get sucked out....but with Razz...if your good, you will win most of the time.

Ive deposited hundreds of dollars playing poker, even though Im a good poker player, you just cant beat the luck factor.

But now that i've discovered Razz, it seems like I'll be winning hundreds instead and may never have to make another deposit again

 

[skoldpadda]

I'll gladly post a video if SG will do the commentary for it (if he's allowed by the other site). Otherwise, I can sweat someone and do a live commentary or someone can record a session and I'll do the commentary later. I don't really want to do a commentary on my own play though.

I play HU, short handed, and full ring up to 3/6 if the game is right. Generally I play a lot of 1/2 and 2/4 right now while I'm rebuilding my bankroll. I play anywhere from 2-5 tables at a time.

I can also do a SNG or MTT if people prefer.

I've logged over 75K hands of razz since taking it up about 6 months ago. SG has had the most positive impact on my game (ty ty!), but studying simulations, discussing hands on forums, Sklansky on Poker, and simply diligently reviewing my hands in Poker Tracker Stud have also helped.

My goal is to eventually be rolled for 5/10 and play that regularly by the end of the year. I got there before in 4-5 months, but withdrawing over half my funds and not dropping back down once I had done that (poor bankroll management/playing too high) and poor tilt control brought me back to the 25/50 cent game at one point recently. Once I'm back and properly rolled for 5/10, I will probably pony up for private lessons from Dan and may start sweating/offering lessons to micro players to basically pay for my own lessons. By then I should have well over 100K hands and be fairly well qualified to earn others a few bucks against the micro donkeys

 

[Jack Daniels]

Otherwise, I can sweat someone and do a live commentary or someone can record a session and I'll do the commentary later.

I'd consider one of these two options so put me #1 on the list. I'm not up to speed on recording though. I know Rex does a bit obv, so I can hit him up. The recording thing we have posted by Misch sucks imo, but I'm biased I guess because he sucks too. I was thinking I could record a SNG with my own commentary on what I'm thinking as each hand comes through and maybe you could build off of that? Or maybe do it live as well. Something to talk about.

 

[skoldpadda]

I'd consider one of these two options so put me #1 on the list. I'm not up to speed on recording though. I know Rex does a bit obv, so I can hit him up. The recording thing we have posted by Misch sucks imo, but I'm biased I guess because he sucks too. I was thinking I could record a SNG with my own commentary on what I'm thinking as each hand comes through and maybe you could build off of that? Or maybe do it live as well. Something to talk about.

That's fine. I don't have camtasia, but I think I can take the video file and add audio over it with the windows movie maker software.

 

[sida77]

I've always thought of Razz to be a very simple game and a game which can even be mastered without too much trouble. But if this was true then everyone playing in the big razz event will have no real edge would they. But then i became friends with a man whose income comes mainly from Razz. And he is living quite comfortably. He opened my eyes to things i never even contemplated in razz and things that i have not found in any book or article ( i have read many). The way he plays makes it so difficult for him to guess his hand and it minimizes his losses so he can turn a game that seems fairly even and no edge into a huge edge. From what he has told me few have mastered this style of play but the ones that have are making big bucks ( one of them plays on tilt i cant remember his name but i was watching his stack grow quite large on the cashtables.)

But in the meantime razz is a really easy game to learn and u can profit as soon as u start playing if u start low. But to become really good at this game is something different

 

[Jack Daniels]

That's fine. I don't have camtasia, but I think I can take the video file and add audio over it with the windows movie maker software.

Well I'm a poker video noob, fwiw. And I'm not dumping a bunch of bucks recording software like Camtasia. I've tried several free products and thus far I think Hypercam is the best bet for me. It's unregistered so the video has a little thing in the top left corner, but it's not in the way or anything. That gets me an AVI file that I will convert to WMV format using the Windows Media Encoder. So hopefully, since it'll be in WMV format, your work will be easier. My biggest concern is file size. Being a noob with all the video stuff, I've managed to get a one hour WMV file to be about 45MB or so. The video quality is reasonable though not HD.

 

[Jack Daniels]

Ok, I've done a couple things I'd like to point out. First, there was another thread razz that, with a few exceptions, was pretty worthless overall, so I closed it and made the final post a link to this thread. My hope is to drive razz traffic to this thread since there isn't a ton of razz discussion on the forum and numerous threads will just get lost easily.

Second thing is actually a suggestion I'm making right now. I'd like to see this thread get used as the base discussion thread for most things razz. Of course I don't mean not to start other threads like this one for example if there is a specific topic to have dedicated conversation to. Instead I'd suggest we do make those other threads when appropriate as well as and get people to post some hand histories for discussion in the Hand Analysis forum.

Finally, if we do get this thread moving in the right direction as the general Razz discussion thread I'm hoping it continues to be, then when other new Razz threads are created they can also be linked to from in here. That will point them out and drive traffic to them. This would be a great way to not only keep track of everything Razz but also help build the razz traffic elsewhere.

And yes, I'm biased towards the game because I'm really digging into it, so we have that benefit too.

 

[LuckyChippy]

Razz is a bit of a joke game really, you can start with ace 2 3 and hit king queen and you have nothing. It is basically a card catching contest. It's just the bit of the horse tourney you have to get through.

 

[Freakakanus]

Razz is a bit of a joke game really, you can start with ace 2 3 and hit king queen and you have nothing. It is basically a card catching contest. It's just the bit of the horse tourney you have to get through.

Says the guy who prolly never folds.....

 

[SGspecial]

I've always thought of Razz to be a very simple game and a game which can even be mastered without too much trouble. But if this was true then everyone playing in the big razz event will have no real edge would they. But then i became friends with a man whose income comes mainly from Razz. And he is living quite comfortably. He opened my eyes to things i never even contemplated in razz and things that i have not found in any book or article ( i have read many). The way he plays makes it so difficult for him to guess his hand and it minimizes his losses so he can turn a game that seems fairly even and no edge into a huge edge. From what he has told me few have mastered this style of play but the ones that have are making big bucks ( one of them plays on tilt i cant remember his name but i was watching his stack grow quite large on the cashtables.)

But in the meantime razz is a really easy game to learn and u can profit as soon as u start playing if u start low. But to become really good at this game is something different

I'd love to hear more about your friend's story, but I have my doubts. Part of the problem with making a lot of money exclusively at razz is the lack of games to choose from. In the old days tho, I'm sure there were many lowball grinders who made their living from razz and other lowball games (some even honestly), and it's well documented that guys like Archie Karas made upwards of $1 million mainly at high stakes razz.

 

[Jack Daniels]

Attention Razz players!!!

Game reminder for tonight: Fulltilt Friday Night Variety - Razz

$5.50 buy-in, $150 added by CardsChat.

Pwd is in the buy-in password sub-forum and is available to members of CardsChat that have 15 or more quality posts.

 

[OzExorcist]

I'm in tonight - might be a little rusty, while since I've exercised my Razz brain properly

 

[Jack Daniels]

I'm in tonight - might be a little rusty, while since I've exercised my Razz brain properly

In that case, remember that rolled up trips are best to open and that you should not play aces, deuces, or treys...especially not together.

 

[OzExorcist]

In that case, remember that rolled up trips are best to open and that you should not play aces, deuces, or treys...especially not together.

Dammit! I had rolled up deuces in the first hour and I folded them - knew I should've checked back to this post before the game started

 

[flyfish4]

i like razz. i agree u seem to find an inordinate # of people with no clue they just bet and bet, but they dont usually last to long.

 

[SGspecial]

Dammit! I had rolled up deuces in the first hour and I folded them - knew I should've checked back to this post before the game started

Don't give up on those puppies too easily! I have a lifetime profit with rolled up A's in razz, and have made quads with them 3 times -- winning two of those pots

 

[OzExorcist]

Don't give up on those puppies too easily! I have a lifetime profit with rolled up A's in razz, and have made quads with them 3 times -- winning two of those pots

Very tidy.

I did consider snowing with them for a moment, but figured it was a bad idea when the reasonable-seeming player on my right completed.

 

[Pothole]

Razz is the nuts, NLHE for all in pre donks. Razz is pure math, pre 4th street count your outs, how many of your cards counterfeit up cards? how many out cards or counters do you have? eg. you hold A67, up cards from ALL players show A56 as their short cards, you know your holding 2 of their possible 6 outs, bet it or raise, and take it down, or slow play and re-raise.