Razz Poker: The who, what, why, when, where, and how of it all

[Jack Daniels]

I read Play Razz Poker to win and i actually kinda liked it,dno maybe its just because im a Razz noob and cant separate the good advice from the bad.
Mostly liked the hand ranking table,thought it was good beginners guide what to play and when.
But if been hearing some mixed feelings about the book so should a noob like me stay away from it our just take it with grain of salt?

IMHO I'd say steer clear of it OR take the book with a huge grain of salt and try to understand the general concepts. The problem is that the more reading and playing I'm doing the more I see that his good bits of info are overshadowed by the gaps in between where things are either wrong or is good info but covered in other pubs. My biggest issue is that he seems to start a lot of topics but seems to leave various scenarios open without discussion. He presents the idea and some strategy followed by his goofy slogan then moves on. It almost seems like he rushed to market to publish the "first" book on razz (which it wasn't) and he could have just spent some more time writing another 50% more pages.

And his hand chart on first glance looks pretty cool. But I'm finding out more and more that it doesn't acct for everything. It doesn't consider or weight your door card for just one example. And it is primarily gauged for scoring your hand as a bike-type hand vs the strength it could have as a 6 or 7 low depending on what cards are out. I know it accts for the dead small cards, but that's only half of it. And the results of your starting hand analysis are either raise or fold; that's not always true for various reasons.

Cliff Notes: There is some good info in there, but if someone asked me for a recommendation I'd give them Sklansky first and after some experience and discussion have them look into this book when they can better appreciate the good points and pick out the bad.

 

[ihavea4]

razz is a very interesting game. i enjoy playing it as a break from holdem sometimes, as it is a lot different. in my opinion, razz takes as much skill as any other form of poker. saying razz takes no skill is like saying limit holdem takes no skill. people max bet in limit holdem too, but there are some great limit holdem players out there, just like there are great razz players.

 

[BostonRobber]

RAZZ strategy for beginners

Try never to start with a "brick" 9 or higher or two of the same cards like A,7,7. Start with any 3 cards 8 or lower at a 9 top.

Bet when you are ahead (how do you know? Look at the up cards. If your opponent has an 8 showing the lowest possible hand is A,2,8 if you can beat that bet)

Raise, reraise bet bet bet if your opponent is aggressive and behind. (e.g. you have A,4,6,7 and your opponent is showin 2,K- so you assume A,2,3,K)

Fold with 2 bricks if your opponent is a sound player (at the very least halt the betting)

GL say hello to Juanupsman at the final tables;-)

 

[zippyhippyca]

Razz is VERY much a game of skill AND patience. Take advantage of the super aggressive nitwits when you can. Play your ultra premiums aggressively and pick your hands well never starting with a hole card higher than 8 preferrably lower. Blind steals are essential. Look for your oppertunity and take them. They'll keep you alive during long dry spells and KNOW when to fold.

 

[Sonic_x_Reducer]

A lot of pros win the RAZZ event at the wsop so there is a lot of skill required for this game. The game is tough because the pots get big since there is most likely betting on every street, and this causes huge chip swings...especially late in a tourney. The key is to know when to get out and when to stick it through to 7th. There is a lot of luck involded since a starting hand like A23 can go south really quick if you brick or catch paint, but good players do well at this game...it can just be realllllllly frustrating sometimes.

 

[stellerteller]

Razz has to be one of my favorite games but just like any of the games that you play there is an element of luck and an amazing hand can turn into a good stud hand by the time you finish. It is important to really remember what cards have come off. I think that you can count cards somewhat depending on how many people are in. You can make a count similar to blackjack and play the odds from there. That will give you a little edge. That is sort of my game play strategy. That and pray. LOL!

 

[HSJBASH]

I really like razz to but the funny thing is it seems like when i first was learning how to play it i was whooping butt and after i figured it out i started losing more. I dont know if it is just that i suck or maybe i just put more thought into my hands then i did when i was first learnig , which ever it may be i still love the game i think its pretty fun lol

 

[thefatman313]

I think Razz is crap(i've played it 2x)....2-7lowball 3 draws is so much better of a game. 3 draw lowball is so much the better game as 23456 is not a low hand and either is 34567. in razz they are and that is wrong.

 

[skoldpadda]

I think Razz is crap(i've played it 2x)....2-7lowball 3 draws is so much better of a game. 3 draw lowball is so much the better game as 23456 is not a low hand and either is 34567. in razz they are and that is wrong.

Twice, wow, you must be the expert then.

There is a lot of sound razz strategy. It is not wrong that 34567 is a low hand in razz; don't knock it because you don't like its rules (or perhaps your own results). Deuce-7 is fun, too.

 

[Worak]

I think Razz is crap(i've played it 2x)....2-7lowball 3 draws is so much better of a game. 3 draw lowball is so much the better game as 23456 is not a low hand and either is 34567. in razz they are and that is wrong.

Obviously you don't read before you write....and a sample size of #2 is ----- well a bit small don't you recon ?

 

[empirejeff]

Twice, wow, you must be the expert then.

There is a lot of sound razz strategy. It is not wrong that 34567 is a low hand in razz; don't knock it because you don't like its rules (or perhaps your own results). Deuce-7 is fun, too.

Both 2-7
and A-5
are good and fun games.

 

[trip-one]

Razz is the easiest game to make money with, because everyone believes its a game of chance and chance only. Its the easiest game to master with some simple rules and you'll be making money too. Try playing only top 10% hands and play them hard. If its a tournament then only bluff when 20% or less of the players are left. Only good players will fold to a bluff.

 

[Makwa]

Razz is VERY much a game of skill AND patience. Take advantage of the super aggressive nitwits when you can. Play your ultra premiums aggressively and pick your hands well never starting with a hole card higher than 8 preferrably lower. Blind steals are essential. Look for your oppertunity and take them. They'll keep you alive during long dry spells and KNOW when to fold.

This is good solid advice, all around and simply put, but myself I am careful how I play rough or hard 8s or soft 9s, depending on the boards. So patient ABC razz works most places.
This works in ring, but MTTs are a different kettle as all sorts of muppets do unpredictable things... luck, stacks and bubble play more of a part there...

 

[SGspecial]

Any chance of a strategy post from u on Razz?

Sure, what kind of strategy do you have a question about?

I read Play Razz Poker to win and i actually kinda liked it,dno maybe its just because im a Razz noob and cant separate the good advice from the bad.
Mostly liked the hand ranking table,thought it was good beginners guide what to play and when.
But if been hearing some mixed feelings about the book so should a noob like me stay away from it our just take it with grain of salt?

Well if you've seen my review, you can tell what areas I think the book is deficient in. I'm not going to get into correcting everything that's wrong with it, as that would be a heck of a long post and I reserve a lot of that type of advice for non-public forums. If you go back to the forum where you saw my reviews and look in the December issue of their online magazine, you'll see the hand rating system (which I developed long ago) that is much more complete.

As far as liking the book, I honestly wanted to like it (despite the fact that the author has repeatedly used slimy tactics to try and sell it). I couldn't, because I know the difference between what sounds like good advice, and what is sound advice. You're just learning the game, and can't be expected to know this without the help of a trustworthy source (or without doing mountains of your own analysis, and this is not much fun - trust me).

 

[Jack Daniels]

RAZZ strategy for beginners

Try never to start with a "brick" 9 or higher or two of the same cards like A,7,7. Start with any 3 cards 8 or lower at a 9 top.

Bet when you are ahead (how do you know? Look at the up cards. If your opponent has an 8 showing the lowest possible hand is A,2,8 if you can beat that bet)

Raise, reraise bet bet bet if your opponent is aggressive and behind. (e.g. you have A,4,6,7 and your opponent is showin 2,K- so you assume A,2,3,K)

Fold with 2 bricks if your opponent is a sound player (at the very least halt the betting)

This is actually pretty decent advice for players that either 1) only play Razz as their rotation in HORSE and have no interest in really developing their Razz game beyond survival, or 2) those that just decided to play Razz and need something to keep them alive while they are in process of developing their game. For those two types of players, the above should mostly keep them out of trouble.

never starting with a hole card higher than 8

If we tie your post together with the basic strategy above, then I'd generally agree with you. However anyone looking to build their game, even very early on, needs to learn that this isn't always true. There are ample times available where you can start with a higher hole card than 8. The trick is learning when those times are opposed to never doing it.

e.g.
Hero [J6]A
Board: AQ688AJK
K brings in, folds around to hero with A door card, Hero completes, J and K villians fold.

and a sample size of #2 is ----- well a bit small don't you recon ?

I'd say you need to play at least three times.

since a starting hand like A23 can go south really quick if you brick or catch paint

In addition, 32A can also start off on 3rd street as a less than premium hand as well.

e.g.
Hero [A2]3
Board 37644565
That's an amazingly crappy board (which does happen) and your 32A jsut became a lot less attractive since half of your bike outs are dead just on the deal (+3 of your 7-low outs too). While your opponents just gained a lot of ground (visually/potentially) because if one of them has a 3-card 6 or 7 then they are drawing to a lot of outs. Imagine if one of those sixes started as [45]6. I'd be thrilled here with that because only one of my bike outs is dead and I'm probably ahead of all hands right now (maybe not, but the odds are in our favor in this example).

Razz is the easiest game to make money with, because everyone believes its a game of chance and chance only.

This is very true for the most part. So many maniac and unskilled opponents can make it pretty good for the willing Razz student. I'm still early in my Razz game, but I've made leaps and bounds in terms of learning and I'm constantly seeing dead money on the tables.

Its the easiest game to master

Though I would greatly disagree with this.

 

[nevertrust0]

RAZZZZ

ya razz is a differnt game but i think its fun its a little slow because its limit most of the time but it is a fun game

 

[S93]

Sure, what kind of strategy do you have a question about?

Well if you've seen my review, you can tell what areas I think the book is deficient in. I'm not going to get into correcting everything that's wrong with it, as that would be a heck of a long post and I reserve a lot of that type of advice for non-public forums. If you go back to the forum where you saw my reviews and look in the December issue of their online magazine, you'll see the hand rating system (which I developed long ago) that is much more complete.

As far as liking the book, I honestly wanted to like it (despite the fact that the author has repeatedly used slimy tactics to try and sell it). I couldn't, because I know the difference between what sounds like good advice, and what is sound advice. You're just learning the game, and can't be expected to know this without the help of a trustworthy source (or without doing mountains of your own analysis, and this is not much fun - trust me).

Any strategy advice that would turn me from a donator into a shark at micros .
But seriously just any general advice would be greatly apreciated.
i think any thread u would post on RAZZ would be hugely valuable to the forum.

p.s
Thanks for pointing me at that article(there were actually two good Razz articles in that issue),i read and found it very interesting even thou i a lot of it whent over my head

 

[SGspecial]

Any strategy advice that would turn me from a donator into a shark at micros .
But seriously just any general advice would be greatly apreciated.
i think any thread u would post on RAZZ would be hugely valuable to the forum.

p.s
Thanks for pointing me at that article(there were actually two good Razz articles in that issue),i read and found it very interesting even thou i a lot of it whent over my head

YW, but it wasn't meant for the microstakes donators obv. If you check out listening's blog (the author of the other article), she has a lot of her older articles posted that deal with microstakes more than I do. To apply a little of what I wrote to players still having trouble at microstakes, you should remember a couple of things:

• Highly rated hands (like those with a PR of 12+, or smooth 3-card 8's and better) are rare. You'll only catch them abut 15% of the time or 1 out of 6 hands. If your opponents are playing 45% of their hands, they do not have a 3-card 8 or better every time. They will be playing a lot of 9's and 2-card hands, so you shouldn't give them as much credit as you would for good, solid players.

• If you realize that you need to play more than just premium hands because of the antes or because your opponents are so loose and bad, you can profitably open up your game a little by playing 10 or 11 point hands (like those whose outs are live and consist of two wheel cards and a brick in the hole). Obviously you don't want to take on opponents who indicate they have a much better hand, but you can often take down the antes, play vs. a limper or two, etc.

 

[S93]

Talk about your no skill at all what so ever game. This game is like hide and seek---Play and pray. Everyone betting to max on every card hoping for the draw. It's nothing more than a slots casino game.

I was messing around with some simulators.......

Best vs worst Razz starting hands
Hand Pot equity Wins Ties
A23 97.86% 17,875,102,095 62,397
KKK 2.14% 390,132,558 62,397

Best vs worst Holdem starting hands.
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 88.200% 87.99% 00.21% 108477540 260154.00 { AA }
Hand 1: 11.800% 11.59% 00.21% 14288040 260154.00 { 72o }

 

[SGspecial]

Talk about your no skill at all what so ever game. This game is like hide and seek---Play and pray. Everyone betting to max on every card hoping for the draw. It's nothing more than a slots casino game.

banned for hatin' on razz, imo

 

[marvinas]

Tried razz for the first time, I think I like it Especially with that amount of players that have no clue what's going on. Had a guy play for 15 mins and then ask what sort of game this is

 

[hipshot55]

Tried razz for the first time, I think I like it Especially with that amount of players that have no clue what's going on. Had a guy play for 15 mins and then ask what sort of game this is

Yeah, you get that a surprising number of times. My favorite is "Is this high or low?" Can you spell F-I-S-H?

 

[ecoutee72]

I have to agree. I play in some razz tourneys. But it is kind of like bingo. You can choose a good starting hand but after that you hope for the best. Not the highest skilled game.

 

[skoldpadda]

I have to agree. I play in some razz tourneys. But it is kind of like bingo. You can choose a good starting hand but after that you hope for the best. Not the highest skilled game.

That's what most people say about poker in general. The people who know the game realize this isn't the truth though.

 

[Jack Daniels]

The people who know the game realize this isn't the truth though.

QFT

I play in some razz tourneys. But it is kind of like bingo. You can choose a good starting hand but after that you hope for the best. Not the highest skilled game.

This mentality, imo, comes not from playing the game and thinking you understand it, but instead it comes from playing other games and incorrectly believing that the numbers and rules you're used to there apply here. People that play hold'em know that starting with the AA is the best hand PF all the time, no question. And they know that AA will win like 85% of the time against a random hand. That concept is totally wrong in razz. A23 is not always the best starting hand. Razz starting hand strength is relative directly to the other board cards dealt and indirectly to your door card.

So let's ignore the other board cards for now and say you have A23 and your opponent has 874. Well if we agree that we have the best starting hand that's great, but we are not 85% to win like with aces. If our opponent is showing [xx]9, then we are still only like 74% (about 3 to 1 favorite). But that's for random down cards. Let's be realistic and say all his cards are 9 or lower and non-paired...now we're like 1.75 to 1 favorite, and we that's with the agreed upon "best starting hand". Once you add in board/dead cards, yes, the % can change quickly (especially if you hit bad and they hit good). So the skills in razz are more finesse (for lack of a better word) when it comes to reading the board and keeping track of dead cards (since that info can disappear in the middle of a hand but is crucial to your play). It isn't simply about, "ug, me have AA, shove PF". In simplest terms, we're talking about somewhat different skill sets in use for similar application.

Obviously there is more to it than that, but some blanket statement about a game being like bingo when you don't know the math behind that game is sort of silly imo.