Peeleo's FR cash thread

[Jagsti]

Ok, with the TT hand if hes 3betting at 14%, if were oop do we think its better to widen our 4bet value range here, so effectively were stacking off with TT or flat as you did? Also if were i/p and face the same player is flatting a better option? Thoughts guys?

 

[Jagsti]

A bit long but good read imo

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/15/poker-theory/nlhe-3betting-facing-3bet-988213/

 

[acky100]

A bit long but good read imo

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/15/poker-theory/nlhe-3betting-facing-3bet-988213/

+1

Some tricky stuff for me to get my head around in it, and im sure im not the only micro noob who has a tricky time understanding it all, and implementing it into our games.

One thing ive never thought of though is that when we 3bet on the blinds we are more likely to get called so should merge our 3betting range more here? Im guessing as people fold to 3bets so often when theyre opening from the CO and BTN that we dont want to merge our range too much and take out all our suited connector semi bluffs, but maybe lower our air:nut ratio am i right? Whereas in position we get called less so can make our air:nut ratio higher?

Ive tried avoiding this sort of stuff too much at my 10NL game as just reading that article fried my brain a bit and im not sure how much is relevent for us micro noobs as a lot relies on knowing how our opponent 3bets which takes a long time to gather, I tend to just 3bet the odd 78s and A3s from the blinds when someone has a high steal percentage and similar hands when in position against someone who's got a high fold to 3bet.

This article kind of goes hand in hand with the one you posted Jag, tell me what you think; http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/78/micro-stakes-full-ring/cotw-restealing-tour-micros-975177/

 

[Jagsti]

Ill take a little look at that article later.

I dont think at 10nl and below, that balancing, having polarizing ranges etc etc is going to have much affect at those levels (oh and please Im not trying to be condescending here), but concentrating on pure value will be far more beneficial to you.

That being said you're constantly going to have to deal with facing 3bettting and 3betting yourself, and the most important thing here is have a plan for the hand when villain reacts to it.

 

[papatango123]

what do you guys have on you huds at 10nl.

plus fx if your playing 10/9 does this mean that you basically never setmine

 

[bgomez89]

Ok, with the TT hand if hes 3betting at 14%, if were oop do we think its better to widen our 4bet value range here, so effectively were stacking off with TT or flat as you did? Also if were i/p and face the same player is flatting a better option? Thoughts guys?

we have a winner

edit- thanks for the link jagsti, great stuff

 

[orangepeeleo]

what do you guys have on you huds at 10nl.

plus fx if your playing 10/9 does this mean that you basically never setmine

My Hud:



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

VPIP/PFR/AF/HANDS in top panel

Cbet/AttStl/3B
FCbet/FStl/F3b in bottom panel

Not an amazingly complicated one, but I feel that its enough for now, will maybe add turn betting/folding stats sometime soon.

 

[ChuckTs]

Article Jay linked to is good imo, although I only really skimmed the tl;dr's.

Flatting can be good, but you're going to need a whole lot more reasoning than 'being ahead of his range', peeleo. AJo is ahead of that range - are you flatting that OOP? Playing out of position in a 3bet pot is going to get you into a whole lot of trouble without a solid plan/reasoning for doing it. In general, the advice given to micro students is usually to never do it. 4bet or fold.

Basically the big reason to flat would be if you thought his range was not only wide, but was polarized, and heavily weighted towards bluffs. Having %55 equity vs a depolarized %14 range isn't good enough to flat - his range is too strong, and having position means he can bluff us very effectively with the hands we actually have an edge on (with QTs on Axx for example, or ATo on KQ2). When he has a polarized %14 range of {QQ+, AK}, and {random suited junk}, then we have a good portion of his range crushed in equity (like A2s, 45o, etc), and we can now flat pf to induce from these hands postflop, being a lot more comfortable with peeling dry big-little-little boards and giving up on later streets (since 45o isn't going to double/triple barrel K92Jr for the most part).

 

[orangepeeleo]

Ok, with the TT hand if hes 3betting at 14%, if were oop do we think its better to widen our 4bet value range here, so effectively were stacking off with TT or flat as you did? Also if were i/p and face the same player is flatting a better option? Thoughts guys?

I'm not sure tbh

I need to read up on how to react to 3bets for def, here though, and this is just off the top of my head, if we 4bet and he comes over the top we're almost always behind barring some spazzy shoves with med pairs <TT, but he has pos so if we 4bet and he just flats then are we not in the same position as if we just flat his 3bet, except with a bigger pot?

If we just flat his 3bet then we end up with an SPR in the 3/4 region which i think makes our TT v.easy to play if we have an overpair or the boards dry with 1 broadway, stacking every time, its only when an A/K comes down, or a board with 2 broadways on it that we have a diff decision.

If we 4bet do we not fold out a lot of hands which we have good equity vs, Axs PP 77-99 Sc's and just get called/shoved on by everything that crushes us?

 

[ChuckTs]

I'm not sure tbh

I need to read up on how to react to 3bets for def, here though, and this is just off the top of my head, if we 4bet and he comes over the top we're almost always behind barring some spazzy shoves with med pairs <TT, but he has pos so if we 4bet and he just flats then are we not in the same position as if we just flat his 3bet, except with a bigger pot?

If we just flat his 3bet then we end up with an SPR in the 3/4 region which i think makes our TT v.easy to play if we have an overpair or the boards dry with 1 broadway, stacking every time, its only when an A/K comes down, or a board with 2 broadways on it that we have a diff decision.

If we 4bet do we not fold out a lot of hands which we have good equity vs, Axs PP 77-99 Sc's and just get called/shoved on by everything that crushes us?

Dead money, dead money, dead money.

There are situations where you could shove, only get called by better, and fold out all worse, but the dead money would make it correct.

You might be correct in that we fold out worse and get called by better, but all the times he folds and we pick up his 3bet amount, that makes up for the equity deficit we have when stacked.

Here's the math:

Assume he's 3betting a polarized range, 3bet/5bet shoves JJ+/AK, and folds everything else in his range.

JJ+/AK is %3 of hands. That's 3/14 = ~%21 of his hands. That means that %79 of his hands are folding to the 4bet.

EV = probability*outcome of each event
= EV(when he folds)+EV(when he gets it in)
= P(fold)*O(fold)+P(fold)*O(fold; equity matters here)
= 0.79*1.90 + 0.21*.34*10.55
= $2.25

We average $2.25 by 4betting. The bolded part I'm not %100 sure about - I don't know where to start counting the stack size, or if we include our stack in that part of the EV, but either way it's profitable. If we're counting both our stacks (~$20), then the EV goes up to almost $3.

 

[orangepeeleo]

Dead money, dead money, dead money.

JJ+/AK is %3 of hands. That's 3/14 = ~%21 of his hands. That means that %79 of his hands are folding to the 4bet.

EV = probability*outcome of each event
= EV(when he folds)+EV(when he gets it in)
= P(fold)*O(fold)+P(fold)*O(fold; equity matters here)
= 0.79*1.90 + 0.21*.34*10.55
= $2.25

We average $2.25 by 4betting. The bolded part I'm not %100 sure about - I don't know where to start counting the stack size, or if we include our stack in that part of the EV, but either way it's profitable. If we're counting both our stacks (~$20), then the EV goes up to almost $3.

Where does the bolded part come from? That whole line has me a bit confused actually, I think I get the first part (percent of hands that fold * potsize we take down when he folds) so the 2nd part then is percent he calls * .34???? Is that our equity against that range?? I think it is now after writing that out but just to make sure i'll leave it in!

Do you work out all this stuff at the table?? Or is this a review thing?

If so I might just quit poker lol

EDIT: Otherwise its there in the math, 4betting def is the best thing to do there then gonna look around for stuff on facing 3bets I think, incl the link that jagsti posted. Def something I need to read up on. Thanks for educating me

 

[Jagsti]

what do you guys have on you huds at 10nl.

plus fx if your playing 10/9 does this mean that you basically never setmine

If hes playing 10/9, then thats all hes doing..... jk, but he's setmining a lot put it that way.

 

[WVHillbilly]

If hes playing 10/9, then thats all hes doing..... jk, but he's setmining a lot put it that way.

Not really since he's calling so rarely. I'd bet he folds lots of small pairs even in LP to a single raise.

 

[Jagsti]

Not really since he's calling so rarely. I'd bet he folds lots of small pairs even in LP to a single raise.

Yeah but the amount of times he's able to setmine compared to his opening range is prolly why there such a small gap between his vpip/pfr.

I'm pretty sure when I nitted up playing about that style I was flatting all pp's <TT.

 

[ChuckTs]

Where does the bolded part come from? That whole line has me a bit confused actually, I think I get the first part (percent of hands that fold * potsize we take down when he folds) so the 2nd part then is percent he calls * .34???? Is that our equity against that range?? I think it is now after writing that out but just to make sure i'll leave it in!

Do you work out all this stuff at the table?? Or is this a review thing?

If so I might just quit poker lol

EDIT: Otherwise its there in the math, 4betting def is the best thing to do there then gonna look around for stuff on facing 3bets I think, incl the link that jagsti posted. Def something I need to read up on. Thanks for educating me

Yeah, the %34 is our equity.

To clarify, the first part of the equation is the EV of him folding. That would be the probability of him folding times the amount we make when he does so. We don't use equity here because we're getting folds, and don't have to worry about running our hand out - we could have 72o here in theory and it wouldn't matter.

The second part of the equation is when we get it in. Probability of this happening (ie the percent of his 3bet range that gets it in) multiplied by our equity vs that range multiplied by the amount in the pot (which again, I'm unclear about when/where to start counting).

This is all stuff that I NEVER do at the table. Almost nobody does.

It's stuff you do away from the table. Now that you know TT is stackable against a %14 range, you know the next time you run into a similar situation it's profitable, so if you're unsure about whether or not to flat, you know that 4betting is profitable.

This is not to say that 4betting is the most profitable line. Flatting can be more or less profitable, depending on a bunch of factors (like how often villain bluffs postflop, how his range is actually distributed with nuts:air, etc). The EV calculation for that is damn near impossible to make, so again, if you're unsure about flatting, then just resort to 4betting.

 

[Jagsti]

Not really since he's calling so rarely. I'd bet he folds lots of small pairs even in LP to a single raise.

also if he is doing this then I'm pretty sure thats a big leak.

 

[acky100]

also if he is doing this then I'm pretty sure thats a big leak.

I think im the same as him on this im usually 12/11 - 14/11 these days but im always folding stuff like 22-66 to a 3 or 4bb raise unless im sure noone will squeeze and they have a full stack and even if these two are met, if i dont think he will pay me off then i usually just fold :/ is this a big leak?

and About the 3betting debate, I was thinking when we 4bet like described and if shoved on we're surely behind so wouldnt it be better 4betting with like 78s so if he does shove we have a good bit of equity no matter what his hand is? Or would this only be the case if villain only 5bets or folds? would it be awful playing suited connectors in a 4bet pot if he flatted? Tell me if my thinkings totally wrong please, ive still got lots to learn....

 

[WVHillbilly]

and About the 3betting debate, I was thinking when we 4bet like described and if shoved on we're surely behind so wouldnt it be better 4betting with like 78s so if he does shove we have a good bit of equity no matter what his hand is? Or would this only be the case if villain only 5bets or folds? would it be awful playing suited connectors in a 4bet pot if he flatted? Tell me if my thinkings totally wrong please, ive still got lots to learn....

78s has 5% less equity against a range of QQ+/AK than TT does.

 

[Jagsti]

I think im the same as him on this im usually 12/11 - 14/11 these days but im always folding stuff like 22-66 to a 3 or 4bb raise unless im sure noone will squeeze and they have a full stack and even if these two are met, if i dont think he will pay me off then i usually just fold :/ is this a big leak?

Ok probably overstated the big leak thing. I mean there's inherent value in sets as long as your getting the implied odds to setmine. Not sure why anyone would want to fold if your getting the correct odds. Pretty sure when I had my big database of hands (have had to start a fresh this year) that setmining 22-66 was profitable. Maybe WV has a big enough sample, assuming he setmines with these hands.

 

[papatango123]

Ok probably overstated the big leak thing. I mean there's inherent value in sets as long as your getting the implied odds to setmine. Not sure why anyone would want to fold if your getting the correct odds. Pretty sure when I had my big database of hands (have had to start a fresh this year) that setmining 22-66 was profitable. Maybe WV has a big enough sample, assuming he setmines with these hands.

i have about 350,000 hands in my db and barring aa,kk,qq 22-99 are my biggest winners i make much more from small pp's than ak aq

 

[acky100]

i have about 350,000 hands in my db and barring aa,kk,qq 22-99 are my biggest winners i make much more from small pp's than ak aq

Ahhh right must be a slight leak then, i mean i do flat with them if its a full stack doing it or if its 5% of their stack the initial raise, i just sometimes choose to fold if theres a few players left to act, or if its a loose aggressive player raising, should we be setmining loose passives, and meg-regs too? i find a lot of meh-regs arent gonna pay you off very often unless theyre big nits?

 

[WVHillbilly]

Ok probably overstated the big leak thing. I mean there's inherent value in sets as long as your getting the implied odds to setmine. Not sure why anyone would want to fold if your getting the correct odds. Pretty sure when I had my big database of hands (have had to start a fresh this year) that setmining 22-66 was profitable. Maybe WV has a big enough sample, assuming he setmines with these hands.

Profitable when calling a preflop raise with all pairs from all positions. ~50BB/100.

 

[acky100]

Cool, and are we only calling 5% of their stack raises or do we want this even lower?

 

[WVHillbilly]

Cool, and are we only calling 5% of their stack raises or do we want this even lower?

You can go a little lower but 20-1 implied is great. I'll usually call at 15-1 if their range is a bit stronger (tighter player, EP open, etc).

 

[fx20736]

If hes playing 10/9, then thats all hes doing..... jk, but he's setmining a lot put it that way.

Yeah I set mine. It's really the only time I flat preflop right now. I occasionally will flat AJs ATs.

I tend to fold 22-66 to an EP/MP raise, in part because of the chance of set over set, also because 77+ has some showdown value so in these situations I tend to setmine with 77-99, sometimes TT and if villain is a super nit JJ. Vs a LP raise I'll flat with 22-66 for setmining purposes if villain is tight and if villain is a LAGtard or Aggromonkey I'll bet/raise on flops without an Ace and no more than one Broadway.

You can go a little lower but 20-1 implied is great. I'll usually call at 15-1 if their range is a bit stronger (tighter player, EP open, etc).

Or 9 to 1 vs fx when he raises UTG!