Beating Micro Stakes Zoom Poker On Stars

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Salmon5

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What type of hands do you typically 3bet with on the button? What other conditions?
 
TheGenera1

TheGenera1

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Cant believe I made this 2 years ago. How time flies.
 
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sammyramone

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Sorry but I feel compelled to say that folding KK in basically any situation is just a serious no go. I appreciate what you're saying in regards to "fish only shove aces in micro zoom", I've experienced it myself; but it's a psychological conclusion you're drawing because you're only noticing the times they bust to aces. There's a proper term for it, which unfortunately I've forgotten! i.e. "when I check the time it's always 2:20". It's superstition. In the long run, you will always always be making more money from playing that hand over folding.

If you can indeed draw anything up from HEM or poker tracker I'd be genuinely interested. But you're going to need a pretty sufficient sample size to prove it. If you've busted to aces 20 times with Kings, that's just the run of the mill. You can't stop playing the 2nd best hand in the game pre flop because you have a feeling everyone going all in has aces; regardless of the field or type of poker game.

Although I absolutely agree with the sentiment that if you're playing 2 or 5nl, ABC is the best, or at least safest way to start racking up a bankroll.
 
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YtM

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I liked the guide. It seems quite nit like but I liked parts of it. The only issue I had is the KK vs AA, I would never fold KK vs a 5 bet as I've been shoved on with A3o to a10o to even worse. I would always call and evaluate post flop. Yeah it sucks losing money once in a while to AA but it's only every so often that they have AA.
 
alipalip

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Microlimit it`s in change, there are more and more ppl who learning poker. Open limping pp's in early position is pretty bad these days. Surely you can get away with it to some degree but raising first in is clearly better.
 
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Marginal

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Wow at the retardation in this thread. I know ifs old but FFS, when arranit is telling you are a nit you have to reassess your life.

Also folding anything to 5 bet 100bb drep

Also 3BB at 2nl
 
alipalip

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Great post!!
I have just started playing zoom so needed a little guidance rather than wait to find it all out myself.

I dont know if I will carry on playing it though tbh, kinda annoying having to fold overpairs and 1 pair hands every time I get raised, like I get KK, open 4x, flops Q48, i cbet, villain calls, turns a blank, i bet again, villains shoves over the top, I dunno if im running a little bad but it just seems like we're almost never ahead there.
 
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bbiase

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Few questions:

AQ vs 3-bet (bettor in position). Flat, fold or 4-bet (trying to make TT, JJ, AQ, AK, AJ, and trash to fold?

AT/A9s/A8s vs 3 bet from blinds? Flat? Fold?

low-mid pocket pair against 4-bet on a multi way pre flop action? I personally call deepstacked when I'm last to act pre. It's just beautiful to spike that top set of tens on the flop and stack off three ways against QQ and AA.

C-Betting on paired board: is it that good given the profitability of flatting PPs (thus, making likely to get called here by small PPs putting you on broadways or ace highs?

Is KQ an isolation hand pre?? It flips against the MAJORITY of limping range of an okay player, but takes the nod given the aggression and positional edge, AND crushes the range of players that limp suited connectors. From time to time you'll see ppl limping aces, but that's another story.


I usually don't call or fold to 5-bet/shoves. I usually 4-bet/shove for value with KK hoping to get called by AK and QQ or even fishy TT, JJ or AQ. It's much more common to find fish calling with these hands a 4-bet shove than facing AA with KK. I surrender a lot of value by not making a proper 4-bet, but I don't get freezed out by ace high and wet boards, don't get scared by set possibilities.
 
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Spartancnc

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Zoom Poker - Pokerstars

My thoughts on generals post.

firstly thanks.

I agree with a re-raise often you are running into AA.

Slight passivity is needed, folding and waiting for a lower variant hand in the right position is much better.

Attack those blinds from the Button and Cut-off with premium hands is where you will hopefully have a better chance of attacking a looser hand range.

I don't pay lower pairs 7s and lower?
Thought kids.

Yes the strategy is they pair the AK and you flop the low number, but how often doe this happen? Statistically?

I rarely play from other positions unless I'm holding suited or overcards.10 plus.

Although there is a massive amount of stealing of the blinds going on and if I have a read with a semi-decent hand I tend to push back, re-raise.

With a good hand more often than not you just end up stealing low bets and the blinds.

One mistake and its good buy stack..

Tight is right.

thoughts.??:) :)

I am in the process of working hard to crush the micro and yes that means $2nl.

all help gratefully received - especially if you live in London and want to set up a working strategy group for micro stakes.

Regards
Spartan
 
crazyforchips

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I would also suggest using a HUD. Most people don't use a HUD at zoom because they think that since most people are fast folding so much, it won't worth it to use the HUD.

But, actually you should use the HUD to identify the LAGs from the TAGs. Just using the HUD has majorly improved my ROI at zoom 5NL. And since I didn't really play a lot on zoom to have stats on all the players, I bought hand histories from hhdealer.com. I highly recommend you guys do so.
 
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Spartancnc

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Dear General,

Its funny but the 'tight is right' formula is certainly the way forward and maybe a bit of stealing from villain checking??
I seem to do a lot of it..

It is funny how I spent a 2 weeks before hand trying to beat the 2nl zoom, until I realised not to get too flash or sneaky with it and just tighten, your post supported my change in direction.

I am though kicked by my lack of progress at 2nl 6-max regular and cannot seem to beat it at all.
I realise most villains have Huds, so bought the small stakes HM2, but apart form reading the most obvious information from it am at a loss to leverage it at all.
I am still making notes on villains and can virtually see them timing on me and looking up my stats.

Tight is right in 2nl regular as well? I presume the answer is yes and that, not chasing draws would help me a lot..

My only profit from 6-max regular comes from non-show downs and so I expect this nature of aggression i my chart, translates better to zoom.

guidance and tips please anyone, I seem to be in need of it.
Just message me would be great.
I would post my graphs here if I could work out to cut and paste from holdem manager.
I am spending 3-4 hours a day in 3-4 sessions trying to beat 6-max regular, where as with 6-max zoom its barely 5-10 minutes of play as I know with my natural desire of aggresion, one mistake on my part and its good bye stack.

Great posts.
Regards
Spartan
 
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Spartancnc

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Separating the LAGs from the TAGs, I like that.
 
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mrkaul

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An Overview of Zoom

I completely agree with you Ramdeebam. As a small stakes regular who started from the micros and has played 10,000s of zoom hands, I was surprised by the 1st post. I assumed it was a bid to play Devils advocate and invite redressal. In my personal experience, these are the only take aways from zoom that we can be sure about.

1. Zoom poker is still poker. It might call for slight adjustments to optimise win rate, but if you are a good solid player, you will win at zoom micros regardless. Zoom poker is relatively new, and yet to be analysed sufficiently, and so individual sample sets, however compelling, should rarely be used to profess major strategy changes.

2. Zoom poker is on average slightly tighter than its slower counterpart. (33% vs 27% open range broadly). This makes it a good idea to slightly widen your opening range from late position, but only if you are a good player as its difficult to make Microstakes players fold draws and pairs. If you are a beginner, stick to a simple solid game at first.

3. The aforementioned tightness refers mainly to pre flop opening ranges because players don't need to wait to play a hand. However, post flop play is typically looser than normal play as zoom poker was designed to attract amateurs and recreational players. There is almost no scenario in which you should remotely consider folding any set on the flop if you have 100BBs or less.

4. Zoom poker plays around 3 times the number of hands as regular poker. This means that in the same span of time you will witness 3 or more times the amount of variance and are likely to see far more unlikely scenarios like set vs set vs set etc. It is very common for zoom enthusiasts to proclaim foul play because they don't realise that they are seeing 3 times the volume in the same span of time.

Lastly, as mentioned before, do remember that zoom poker was meant to attract recreational players, and so for the most part, playing a good solid game, and loosening up in LA as you improve is a good idea.

P.S. I don't think you should widen your blind stealing range too much at 1st. This is because the BB is the only position that can't fast fold and has to wait and is therefore more likely to want to play his hand. And it's not fun to play a weak hand to a fish out of position too often. Also, there is no earthly scenario in which you should fold KKs in the micros. This would apply even more so when you have been 5 bet because then you would have the odds to call even with a TJs (with 100BBs or less).

Best of luck at the tables.
I don't mean to sound harsh. I think it's great when people put together an article like this but in my opinion, it's misleading.

I don't think in ANY cash game it's ever a good idea to fold kings to any sort of 4bets/5bets pre at the micros. I can guarantee that your kings are good more times than not in these spots over the long term it's only profitable to get kings all in at ANY stakes regardless and sure you run in to aces at times, it just happens but I'd never be 3betting/4betting then folding to a shove.
 
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Faydar09

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abc, at the micros should make you a winning player. A hud helps!
 
TheGenera1

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Holy crap this thread is still going! I left poker for a while and have spent the last 3 years in the military, I have recently left and have returned to my beloved game. Sorry at the guys asking me questions from months ago I simply haven't been on this site. Funny looking back at my OP I think there are some slight adjustment changes needed. Flatting with KK instead of 4betting is optimal because it doesn't shut out the looser end of people's range.

I'm trying my hand at the spin and go's and so far so good.
 
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I raise 3xBB every hand of my range.Play for set if i have 10 times the bet of the 3-bet!Play all my chips preflop with AA and KK but KK not aways and play very carefully the others cards not wide range.
 
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Akwind

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Hi everyone!
Talking about micro stacke (nl2-nl5)
couple of questions :
what is good win rate at zoom? for fullring and 6max?
1) can you give me VPIP/PFR stats that are normal for 6 max and full ring ZOOM?
i play 6 max ZOOM most of the time
my stats are 18/16/10/2.7 VPIP PFR 3bet Agrresion TOTAL
but is see some people playin like VPIP 9 PFR 8 - and i wonder - is it enough to beat blinds and reak in 6 max? you wont get your good hands payed everytime... so here it is

2 )I do protect my bb with 3bet with some marginal hands (my 3bet at sb and bb vs steal is quite high), sometimes i got problems with that is that ok?
3) Also i face problems stealin at BU or SB first to say with low pairs (22-66) at high boards. OPPs ussualy flat call me and i give up at turn... any strategy here?
 
TheGenera1

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I wish I could help you on that one but I haven't played ZOOM since I made this thread which was years ago, I don't even have the hand history on my poker tracker since I wiped it all ages ago.
 
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Giorgio

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Hi everyone!
Talking about micro stacke (nl2-nl5)
couple of questions :
what is good win rate at zoom? for fullring and 6max?
1) can you give me VPIP/PFR stats that are normal for 6 max and full ring ZOOM?
i play 6 max ZOOM most of the time
my stats are 18/16/10/2.7 VPIP PFR 3bet Agrresion TOTAL
but is see some people playin like VPIP 9 PFR 8 - and i wonder - is it enough to beat blinds and reak in 6 max? you wont get your good hands payed everytime... so here it is

Hey, the last couple of month i'm playing a lot of zoom and the value u have over the other players is really thin. I personally consider a +0 bb/100 winrate already decent but do know players who are able to hold 8bb/100.
 
TheGenera1

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I've completely moved on from zoom, as I just love to grab a Jesus seat on a fish and just rinse him of his roll.
 
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leandr0s

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Ok so I have looked online and seen very little in the way of useful tips for beating micro stakes zoom poker on stars. I have played since it first game out and I'm averaging around 6k hands a day on it. I play 4 tables of 5nl and 2 tables of 2nl. 6 tables is the max you can play now because PS lowered the amount, I guess this was due to people being extreme nits... not sure however.

Anyway use this topic to discuss all things zoom as I'm sure there are a lot of strategys that will crush zoom as it is a really new thing to stars and Rush sucked.

Useful things I do to ensure I make a profit almost every single session I play. (I don't use a hud for zoom yet, only for regular poker) There are exceptions to these rules if you have info on your opponent.

1. Fold KK preflop to a 5 bet/don't call all in preflop with KK because you are up against AA almost EVERY TIME.
I don't care what anybody says to me because after playing thousands and thousands of hands at zoom, I have noticed that people almost never shove without AA or KK so you are a flip at best.
Exception to this rule is if you have notes or the villain is short stacked or you are in the blinds. Blind on blind play tends to be looser.

2. Do not over play bottom set/22 33 sets.
Now this is a complicated point and it by no means suggests you should fold your bottom set at all, but what it does mean is you should be wary of someone with massive aggression on the flop because they more often than not have a higher set. Just imagine you are in a live casino playing a cash game, and there is a bloke across from you literally spilling his food and drink because he can't get the chips into the middle fast enough. Is someone really going to be 4/5 bet shoving you on the flop with anything less than a set? I think not... I no I wouldn't.

The way you should play your 22 33 sets is by calling an EP/middle open raise and hoping to stack them if an A or K falls on the flop (and you hit your set) because they hit their TPTK. This spot is fine for a stack off. However if you all LIMP in pre flop, then your tiny bottom set is very often up against a higher set. You should not limp 22/33 but CALL open raises with them. This ensures that you will almost always be in a favourable spot with your tiny set.

3. 3bet in late position like there is no tomorrow.

By 3betting a wide range of hands you will so often make people fold their AK or w/e oop and take down a small pot. All these pots add up and really help your winrate. The reason this works, is because with the vast amount of hands people are seeing per hour, they really have no desire to call out of position with mediocre hands. They will fold out lots of strong hands that they would not normally fold in a Ring Game.
If you do get flatted, then it is even more profitable when you take it away on the flop by cbetting. (ensure proper board texture) Give up on the turn if called unless you improve.

4. Raise blind steals with a wide range of hands.
A lot of recreational players think they are being smart arses raising every single button that they have to steal the blinds because they think no one will notice because of the zoom format. By raising their steals you will take down a large amount of pots where the villain has absolute garbage and cannot possibly call profitably. If they do call, then take the pot away on the flop as it is likely that have missed. Again, give up on the turn if called because they obviously have strong holdings to make the flop call. If they are floating, then well played them... however you don't run into these players often.

5. Isolate single limpers if you are in the button or cutoff as much as you can with a wide range.
This is a strategy that I'm sure you will all know from your standard ring game experience, but in zoom, you will find it is even more profitable as people are constantly limping to try and make sets, and when they miss they lay down the hand. Micro Zoom poker is all about making sets and punishing people stupid enough to get attached to their high pocket pairs. So this being said, it is inevitable that you will find people limping with a lot more frequency than in a standard ring game, but more importantly, they don't get attached to their hand due to boredom, like in standard micro stakes games, because the next hand is right around the corner. So by isolating these limper's while in position, you can take away a lot of pots on the flop when they fold their low pp's that haven't set mined successfully.

6. DO NOT BLUFF
Seriously, beyond the C bet on the flop, just don't do it. People are unlikely to fold on the turn, what they liked on the flop and double barreling gets very expensive when people keep calling you down. Sometimes you can get away with a double barrel if an A or K falls on the turn as players will be scared of this, but apart from that, don't bother. There is a lot of easy money to be made at zoom, and it doesn't come from bluffing.

7. Be very wary if raised post flop.
As with your standard ring games, you want to be very wary if raised post flop, especially if you have a hand that you like the look of but is simply a mere pair. This means that if you have AK on an A or K board and some one raises the flop it means more often than not, you are going to be facing a large turn bet as well. It is up to you to judge to size of the flop raise and whether or not they are likely to fire the turn as well, which in most cases signals a stronger hand than TPTK or an overpair which is what you will be holding.
The reason you should be more wary of raises at zoom, is because people bluff less and value more. They don't have to worry about a tight image as the table is new each time, so they are going to show up with a hand that beats TPTK or an over pair a lot more than they would if it was a standard ring game. (For the record, Russians and Germans tend to be really aggressive, so if you can't decide whether to call the flop raise, check to see if one of these nationalitys is there :p ) However don't get carried away as they get good hands too. A standard rule for whether to call a flop raise or not is to check if it is more than a min raise. You can call a min raise, but should probably fold to a larger raise. Fold to a large turn bet if you called a flop minraise as they will often have better than a pair when firing the turn as well. If they check, then you will often have the best hand.

8. Playing Small and Medium Pocket Pairs.
You should be looking to set mine as much as possible with these hands and be ready to throw them away on the flop unimproved. Certain paired boards warrant a call, but mostly get rid of them if you don't hit.

EP. Open 77+ for a 3x raise. If you miss your set you can C bet in a HU pot and try and take it down. (Ensure propper board texture)
Limp 44-66 and then call a medium sized raise from players to act behind you. Your limps will get raised often (which is good because when you do hit your set, you get paid off more)
There is no need to open 6's and below because people will always raise your limp.

MP. Open raise 44+ and call reasonable sized opens from in front of you with any PP. You can open all pocket pairs from here because it is less likely that you will be 3bet. You also open all pairs from here to help build a pot.


Finally just bare in mind that this is for 2nl 5nl and 10nl ONLY. I have no experience at the higher stakes so really cannot comment on that. These tips are only what I have learnt from playing lots of zoom hands, and although you may disagree, remember that this is just an opinion and I am by no means forcing anyone to play like this ;)
While this strategy is very weak tight, I would like to add that I have had only great results using this play. It DOES win, and with decent win rates as well. Yes you might be folding the best hand occasionally, but believe when I say how good it feels to walk away from almost ever session with considerably more money than when I started. Sometimes you will have a god awful run if cards and it will drive you insane, but these tips ensure that your session will be filled with extremely easy decisions throughout, and you won't find your self in marginal spots hitting the desk with you head for calling when you shouldn't or for having a cooler.

Thanks for reading.

all this true... especially the blindstealing/3bet-resteal/light 3bet IP... thing is that im really following that line in my game. i only use the basic version of jivaro as a HUD (who needs one in zoom) but if i were to guess my 3bet is probably around the 15-20%... and my ranges are so wide that i believe i should be limiting it.. can you give an estimation of the kind of hands we should be restealing with (from dealers and CO opens)... for light rbetting i use mainly suited baby aces, or suited combos of Q,J,10,9,8.. but for resteal i think i 3bet at least 50% of the opens from the button. probably any 2 suited cards will do, any Ax will do (x<10). maybe i should be limiting that range. or maybe i have a leak in my board selection for cbet after the 3bet. but i believe there is some major leak in my game there, that i unfortunately cant find due to the lack of a HUD. i am currently trying to compare how it goes by leaving my LAG style and get really solid, playing much tighter both preflop and postflop. but i still think its impossible to get clear-cut answers without statistical data. so any advice on that would help... i mainly play 6max zoom 2NL. but playing TAG is better in full ring, so i switched to full ring zoom 2NL
 
TheGenera1

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Ok I did write that post about 4 years ago I believe but I have been playing a bit of zoom my self lately and not much has changed but people are a lot more aggressive.

I can't really be giving you a range on your 3bet because what I have come to hate about zoom, is the fact that you cannot apply ranges to players, or their tendencies and it takes AGES to build up decent sample sizes. Basically the answer I would give is, someone with a high fold to 3bet stat I'm literally 3betting any two cards that aren't unsuited gapped crap.

Against someone with a higher calling stat I'm doing it with a much better holding, but then again it depends on their fold to cbet stat as well. Essentially I don't play Zoom any more as I feel my edge over the competition is largely diminished.

If you move to 6max regular cash games I can give you a lot more advice :p


TL:DR To be honest, if it's working for you, keep it going but you are playing a very high variance strategy by 3betting wide, and I went into a 12 buy in downswing playing this way because eventually people are going to keep connecting with the flop so be prepared and have a large roll.
 
vkillid

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In reality, we can not beat these micros because a lot of aggression at the tables now))
 
TheGenera1

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Yeah this is very true, everyone is SUPER aggressive, some people really know how to just represent the nuts and get folds. Without HUD stats though it's a gamble as to who is doing what.
 
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