$$$March SNG Thread$$$

[Debi]

Just a basic question but in high blinds when SB starts shoving ATC (the position where you shove the widest, if I'm correct?) this seems to create an interesting dynamic on the table, since it's something that you know is going to happen near 100% of the time (after seeing that he knows what he's doing anyway).

It makes BB's correct calling range wider especially if he's on the short stack, however since we're usually on the bubble or ITM at this point, he still has to fold a lot if he's not short stacked because he needs to not just be ahead of SB's range, but have it crushed (i.e. big A's, mid-high PP's) depending on payout structure. Correct?

Also assuming neither of the blinds is desperately short stacked, it seems like a mistake on the button's part that SB gets the chance to shove at all. Button's range should be only slightly more selective that SB's for open shoving. Correct?

Am I missing anything obvious here, or do I have this about right..

BB's calling range will not be as wide as SB's shoving range. It really depends on the size of the effective stack. For example if the effective stack is 10bb's you are going to call sb and button shoves with approximately the top 25% of hands (66+, AT+,etc). If the effective stack is 5bb's you would call with about the top 35% (22+, A2+, etc).

The button's open shoving range would be tighter than the sb's shove range. He is shoving into 2 people.

Of course all of this is dependent on stack sizes and you have to make adjustments if it is the bubble. (also you have to adjust if you are up against other players who understand sng strategy).

 

[ph_il]

Dak-xx, do you think I can get a copy of your shove-hand chart?

...Saw it mentioned in another thread.

 

[Debi]

Dak-xx, do you think I can get a copy of your shove-hand chart?

...Saw it mentioned in another thread.

Yea - will send it later today. I am making a few adjustments to it later so will wait til I do that.

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

just about to have my first 10-game set with 0 cashes of the month, go me!

seriously i don't mind one-outers and silly stuff like that but losing every flip and 60/40 and having every QQ run into KK and every BB special run into some retard who's limped pf with J7 soooted and flopped something even more ridiculous for an hour is ****ing annoying. taking a break for a while after this last game

lol as i type JJ<KQ busto in 5th of the last of the set

 

[Debi]

^^^That is how it was for me last month all month long. I never could get a really good run going like I did in January.

But this month I have had a good run already which hopefully will give me some cushion for when the bad beats start hitting me again lol.

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

holy crap busto out of monies in 9/10 in the next set too, on the bubble in the last one, busto inevitable.

e: oh wow AK > Q6 ITM i'd forgot what it's like to cash in a sng

e2: wow i won it only like a 15 bi downswong now!

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

this set is going to be great too - busto in first hand of one AK for trips < QT sooted that turns a flush

 

[Debi]

I only cashed in 4 of 9 this last set - big letdown from 6 of 9, 7 of 9 and 6 of 9 lol.

Didn't do great in my 2 sets of 6 lats night - but still way up for the month.

Gonna do 9 more in a minute!

 

[ph_il]

SNGs are so lame...:-(

Someone coach me, plz...?

...Thinking about dropping down to the single tables again but I dont want to have to pay the huge rake.

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

lollll busto ootm in 9/10 again.

gonna check all-in luck graph for today after this set - should be a hoot. probably back to even for the month now roflafdksgkfdgdfghfnrththregwery53uytyk

seriously i'll review later but as far as i know i made one horrible play in the 30 games - it's not tilt it's just me being awful at flipping and having the best hand hold

e: okay won the one i was left in but that still only makes it 2 out of the last 30 ITM. lol swongs! going to make coffee then i might post graphs if they're funny enough

 

[cjatud2012]

Chris do you use PT3 or HEM? If you have PT3, how do you get the all-in equity graph?

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

lol donkaments

first garph is monies

second garph is total luck over all the donkaments i have in PT3

third garph is today

obv they're flawed because it's tourney chip luck but the total graph shows what should happen, upward expectancy line because overall you get chips in good. but not today!

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

Chris do you use PT3 or HEM? If you have PT3, how do you get the all-in equity graph?

i use a program called holdemluck - can't remember where i got it from but google may help.

 

[cjatud2012]

i use a program called holdemluck - can't remember where i got it from but google may help.

Okay cool, will search this soon. Thanks Chris.

 

[WiZZiM]

hate to break it to you.. but that luck adjusted graph is useless....

 

[only_bridge]

This thread has just made me try out SnG's. Didnt go so well in the beginning, but eventually ended on the plus side.
Nine 11$ SnG's 2 1st, and 2 3rd for a 27$ profit, over a 2 hrs period.

 

[Tangerine 53]

lollll busto ootm in 9/10 again.

gonna check all-in luck graph for today after this set - should be a hoot. probably back to even for the month now roflafdksgkfdgdfghfnrththregwery53uytyk

seriously i'll review later but as far as i know i made one horrible play in the 30 games - it's not tilt it's just me being awful at flipping and having the best hand hold

e: okay won the one i was left in but that still only makes it 2 out of the last 30 ITM. lol swongs! going to make coffee then i might post graphs if they're funny enough

Glad it's not just me then Dorkus. I don't play anywhere near the volumes you and others do but I've only cashed one in my last ten which is the worst downswing I've had since I started playing. Looking at it I'm not playing that badly but I'm not getting any cards or decent flops at the mo. This in turn is leading me to push in areas where I shouldn't and then I'm getting burnt.

Looks like we need some of Dakota's hot streak over on this side of the Atlantic . Care to share this with the Brits Debi?

 

[thepokerkid123]

SNG variance is sick. I'm not sure if this sample is positive or negative variance, it's hard to tell because it's either sick variance against me or sick variance for me, or a huge suck out followed by a huge bad beat out of the SNG.
All round it's just sick and twisted. I'm liking that there are more clear right and wrong decisions in SNGs though, it means play is very robotic but as far as I'm concerned the play (even with variance) is just a test of the system devised away from the table.

Graph for $2+25c 9 man SNGs on Full Tilt.

This sample size doesn't mean anything, of course. And it's only over the past 6 SNGs where I've actually had some semi-intelligent idea what I'm doing with my shove/fold game (not saying that's the reason for the 2nd upswing, just that my sample is hugely distorted).

Still good to be up though.

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

hate to break it to you.. but that luck adjusted graph is useless....

as i said i know they're flawed but how are they "useless"?

anyway, questions!

- is stars still being stupid and banning sharkscope?

- do you guys practice game selection at all? i mean if some guy opens 20 games i'll generally just wait or load some under him but i dunno if there's more i can do (bearing in mind these are $6 turbos and even a lot of the regs are bad)

 

[thepokerkid123]

- do you guys practice game selection at all? i mean if some guy opens 20 games i'll generally just wait or load some under him but i dunno if there's more i can do (bearing in mind these are $6 turbos and even a lot of the regs are bad)

Can't give an informed/experianced answer.

But assuming 9 handed that one reg will be 1/9 of other players and the actual equity difference you have against the random multitabler compared to a random player is unlikely to be big enough to be noticeable even over a large sample.
I think it was FP who wrote somewhere that breakeven isn't a true zero point for a winrate, so for cash games the difference between 1bb/100 and 5bb/100 is smaller than it looks. The logic would seem to apply to ROI, and if you divide the difference in winrates by 9, it is really unlikely to be worth your time.

Just an opinion though.

 

[Debi]

Yes - sharkscope is still banned by pokerstars.

I don't see much point in table selecting in micro stakes. There are really very few regs I would feel I want to avoid - don't mind having a couple on my tables. And really the only thing you can do is what you said - if you see a reg load up a bunch of tables just wait til those are gone.

 

[only_bridge]

So easy to clear bonuses and become ironman when you play SnG's. I am hooked. But this will absolutely kill my 160% ROI.

 

[WurlyQ]

as i said i know they're flawed but how are they "useless"?

anyway, questions!

- is stars still being stupid and banning sharkscope?

- do you guys practice game selection at all? i mean if some guy opens 20 games i'll generally just wait or load some under him but i dunno if there's more i can do (bearing in mind these are $6 turbos and even a lot of the regs are bad)

-I think he was trying to say that it tells you nothing you more then that you have a decent chance of running bad. An ICM EV graph is a lot more accurate than a chip EV graph and even that has tons of flaws to it.

-SS is only banned while the Stars client is open though there are some rumors that it is even allowed while it is opened though I wouldn't bank on this.

-This is a function of how long you have to wait versus how much regs drain your winrate. Regs will drain your winrate and your hourly, but at the same time, avoiding regs means more time sitting there doing nothing which also drains your hourly.

SNG variance is sick. I'm not sure if this sample is positive or negative variance, it's hard to tell because it's either sick variance against me or sick variance for me, or a huge suck out followed by a huge bad beat out of the SNG.
All round it's just sick and twisted. I'm liking that there are more clear right and wrong decisions in SNGs though, it means play is very robotic but as far as I'm concerned the play (even with variance) is just a test of the system devised away from the table.

Graph for $2+25c 9 man SNGs on Full Tilt.This sample size doesn't mean anything, of course. And it's only over the past 6 SNGs where I've actually had some semi-intelligent idea what I'm doing with my shove/fold game (not saying that's the reason for the 2nd upswing, just that my sample is hugely distorted).

Still good to be up though.

It looks like some positive and negative variance which is expected over the long run though your sample size makes it impossible to draw any meaningful conclusions. Variance will last hundreds, potentially even thousands of games if your winrate is low (variance is greater for a lower winrate).

Can't give an informed/experianced answer.

But assuming 9 handed that one reg will be 1/9 of other players and the actual equity difference you have against the random multitabler compared to a random player is unlikely to be big enough to be noticeable even over a large sample.
I think it was FP who wrote somewhere that breakeven isn't a true zero point for a winrate, so for cash games the difference between 1bb/100 and 5bb/100 is smaller than it looks. The logic would seem to apply to ROI, and if you divide the difference in winrates by 9, it is really unlikely to be worth your time.

Just an opinion though.

Do you have a link to the post? How is breakeven not a true zero point for a winrate? If you win 5bb/100, you will win exactly 5 times someone that wins 1bb/100. My guess is that he was counting rakeback/bonuses that pads our winrate which really is just a difference between effective winrate and winrate we see on HEM/PT3.

So easy to clear bonuses and become ironman when you play SnG's. I am hooked. But this will absolutely kill my 160% ROI.

Clearing bonuses and becoming ironman just means you are paying more rake. However, at the same time, you are most interested in how much money you make, not your ROI so comparing your hourly winrates is the most important.

 

[thepokerkid123]

The point was that it's not a true 0 point, your winrate can go negative. Proffits doubling still leaves you with a thin edge.

The point I was trying to make was that your edge is pretty small and the difference in winrate between two opponents isn't huge. If we know one of them is a huge fish and one is solid, then it's obviously different but without a lot of information poker is fairly even.
When we're dividing their influence on our winrate by the number of players in the SNG, table selection is going to add somewhere between nothing and a barely noticeable increase.

Like I said though, this definately isn't a voice of experiance.
I just throw random logic out there and see what gets shot down and what doesn't.

 

[WiZZiM]

-I think he was trying to say that it tells you nothing you more then that you have a decent chance of running bad. An ICM EV graph is a lot more accurate than a chip EV graph and even that has tons of flaws to it.

yup... it doesnt take into account icm... every chip has differing values... also it doesnt take into account when you raise and they fold.. or when someone raises you and you fold... so yes im saying its useless as it really wont give you an indication of if your playing good or bad... but if your a good player you should be running better than expected...