To limp or not to limp

[kowrip]

Hi,
I wonder why PokerStars school always say "Never limp, make a raise or fold". I think there is a plenty of situations where limp is better than raise, especially in a turbo tournaments, where you can't risk your 3BB raise with medium hand like AQ or KJ against someones all-in.
Sometimes when I play super carefull (e.g. when I need to make 15% best in league) I limp even with AK, cause this hand needs a pair to be premium and I don't wanna risk a flip.
I also think it's great way to play in early stages of tournaments when blind are really small, you can see many flops and hit two pairs, threes or better.
What you think about limping and this Pokerschool rule?

There are many problems with limping. You say you can't risk a 3BB raise with a medium hand ? Well, what happens when you limp and a good player behind you raises you 3BB-4BB ? You either call and pay the 3BB anyway or you fold and give up 1BB without ever seeing a flop. You might be able to limp in weak games, but I can assure you that when you face better players, they are not going to let you see a cheap flop. Another problem is that you get no information about anybody else's hand. At least when you raise and get a caller, you can generally eliminate about 2/3 hands from their range. A third problem is that you are letting other players see a cheap flop. If you see a flop with 2-3 other players, you can't even have too much confidence in a hand like 2 pair. I generally only limp in 2 cases. The first is if I am in the BB with a weak hand and nobody has raised it. At that point, it's not costing me anything more so I might just check. The other situation is when I get dealt a premium hand and have a very aggressive player to act behind me. Other than those 2 cases, I simply look at my cards to decide whether or not I'm going to play. If I'm going to play, I'm raising ! It doesn't matter if I'm playing AA or T9s, I'm raising at least 2.5BB.

 

[John bruce]

Limping

I find that most of the time someone will raise when they see people limping. It's a easy tell that no one is holding a hand that they believe in. If people limp I always raise. If I'm trying to trap a real aggressive player that always raises when the board is nothing but limpers. I do. Then i reraise him. Or if your big blind with a crappy hand I'll limp in. Not like I'm folding a free flop. You will find what works for you. Every situation is differing so it will be handled differently. Let's play poker

 

[Jankou36]

There are many problems with limping. You say you can't risk a 3BB raise with a medium hand ? Well, what happens when you limp and a good player behind you raises you 3BB-4BB ? You either call and pay the 3BB anyway or you fold and give up 1BB without ever seeing a flop. You might be able to limp in weak games, but I can assure you that when you face better players, they are not going to let you see a cheap flop. Another problem is that you get no information about anybody else's hand. At least when you raise and get a caller, you can generally eliminate about 2/3 hands from their range. A third problem is that you are letting other players see a cheap flop. If you see a flop with 2-3 other players, you can't even have too much confidence in a hand like 2 pair. I generally only limp in 2 cases. The first is if I am in the BB with a weak hand and nobody has raised it. At that point, it's not costing me anything more so I might just check. The other situation is when I get dealt a premium hand and have a very aggressive player to act behind me. Other than those 2 cases, I simply look at my cards to decide whether or not I'm going to play. If I'm going to play, I'm raising ! It doesn't matter if I'm playing AA or T9s, I'm raising at least 2.5BB.

Agree with you. Refer to recent posts, it's an old thread and I'm still learning and adjusting my strategy.

 

[Freeman748]

I play mainly raise and betas but sometimes I limp for monsters

 

[williamsc99]

I think it depends on the modality, for example the limp in pot limit omaha is perfectly normal, since texas holdem is more condemnable. This is due to the fact that in plo the game is more developed post flop, whereas in holdem you can do his opponents fold in their pre-flop hands, a fact that does not occur so much in Omaha

 

[DieCosta]

bet to get information

i am very agressive player i don`t limp to be honest ,in my opinion the best way to get infromation from other players is beting the only a few cases and i will limp is to trap someone when i know its going to be agressive againts meexample: you are in UTG+1 WHIT AA or KK and botton player is a maniac agrerssive player and you have the perfect spot to get full advantage the sitation .

 

[finaltable1]

Hi,
I wonder why PokerStars school always say "Never limp, make a raise or fold". I think there is a plenty of situations where limp is better than raise, especially in a turbo tournaments, where you can't risk your 3BB raise with medium hand like AQ or KJ against someones all-in.
Sometimes when I play super carefull (e.g. when I need to make 15% best in league) I limp even with AK, cause this hand needs a pair to be premium and I don't wanna risk a flip.
I also think it's great way to play in early stages of tournaments when blind are really small, you can see many flops and hit two pairs, threes or better.
What you think about limping and this Pokerschool rule?

I haven't reas PS schols articles. But personally I think that those who think that limp is a option in online poker - they need a nurse to take care of them :ciao:

Instead of reading pokerstars school articles you better read "The Art of War" by Sun Tzu, ancient Chinese general for an explanation to your question.


- Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.

- To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.

- Opportunities multiply as they are seized.

- When the enemy is relaxed, make them toil. When full, starve them. When settled, make them move.

- He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight.

- Appear weak when you are strong, and strong when you are weak.

- The greatest victory is that which requires no battle.


By my opinion, you CAN limp in very few situations. A good limp is when you're in early position with AA and sitting at a very aggressive table, so you know for 99% that there will be a preflop raise after your limp, so you can 3bet that raise. This is one of the very few good limps.

IF you're limping in other situations, then you:
a) Making yourself look stupid and unsure. If that's what you wanted to do for some reason - then your goal is achieved.
b) Let other players see flop for free with their trash cards. SB and BB might have folded their 74o and 28s, but you've limped your AKs, and here comes the action flop: top pair for you, flush draw for bb and straight draw for sb. You'll start betting your top pair, they will call, and the river kills you.
c) Sun Tzu: - The greatest victory is that which requires no battle. Bet 2-3bb with 89os and collect the blinds, what could be better? Limp AK and lose half of stack to 74o with set of K vs a flush? You decide.
d) What is this game about? This game is about collecting chips. How do you collect the other players chips? By pressing the Bet button. Isn't it obvious?

 

[sidenotch]

YES indeed, it comes down to abot 80% luck at first...THEn "some" skills

Jankou I agree with your comments about limping and, I don't like the "rule" because there are too many ways to find an exception to the rule. Like you said, limping can make sense. When I am in a turbo mtt with a less than average stack the fast changing blinds often place me in a spot where raising 2.5 or 3BBs is too much when you risk an all-in response.


And, I've done exactly what you did with AK and lived to tell the tale while other big hands went bust when some guy with 5 7 off suit won the pot.

Indeed sir!>>>WOW, at least it happens to "others" besides me in hands I play GREAT cards against WEAK cards. You can say ALLLL you want about "pot odds", etc, but if you're NOT getting decent cards to play, then you don't REALLY have "much" of a chance of winning many hands. So, first off, give me the LUCK of a BUNCH of players I watch getting dealt face cards suited, pocket pairs, AK, AQ..CONSTANTLY...give me those players LUCK with the cards and I will do MUCH better than I have been doing with the cards I get dealt, such as 27, 3 7, 4 9, 2 J, 3 9, 3 1o, 2 10..CRRRAP cards....SO, FIRST OFF, give me the "luck" of others who are getting WAYYY better cards on a consistent basis, THEN I can use "some" skills to TRY and win more hands, and place higher in tournies on a consistent basis! OTHER THAN THAT, people really need to get a grip on their "arrogance" and know it all attitude towards this SILLY thing they call "internet" poker...you know, the game where people play ANY TWO cards, WHENEVER...and they seem to win hands WAYYY more playin WILLY NILLY PRE FLOP GUESSING ALL IN bets with WEAK CARDS, in bad positions...wayyy more than I do when I wait patiently and TRY to play GOOD cards to flops and all ins...in GOOD positions, etc...YET, seem to lose about 80% of the time when I play AGAINST an ace RAG player with K's, or KQ, JQ...and THEN, when I am dealt an ace, in good spots even...and I play it according to "pot odds" and the whole "book of HOYLE" concept?>>>I seem to LOSE about 80% of those hands because the site won't flop an ace for ME! I realize "others" have better "luck' with deal outs, etc, BUT that CERTAINLY doesn't make them "pros", or "better" at "poker", cuz for one thing "online CARDS" is FARRRR from "poker"...especially with the FREE money involved. People win FREE roll money, then go to a pay game and make GOOFY bets, YET they seem to be able to win a BUNCH more hands then I do playing GREAT CARDS. SOOOOO, people REALLLLY need to stop putting up these "charts", referring to "stats" in here...the "ROI" of a player, ETC! BECAUSE those people are NOT GETTING DEALT the same cards I am getting dealt, and certainly not in the frequency that get dealt CRAP cards! I watch "others" play...even "after" I have been knocked out of tournies, and it's HILARIOUS to witness the cards people will play and the positions they play them. Enough BABLING for me...NUFF SAID...TRUTH HURTS most of the "pros" in here who constantly refer to "pot odds", ETC!>>>They don't exist in ONLINE poker...well, at least the odds are WAYYYYYY different for ME>>>LOL! Peace and Happy New Year and may the flops be with you...but first, THE DEAL OUTS!>>>that's the ONLY way you're going to win>>>>by getting DECENT cards to play...in decent positions>>>PERIOD!!

 

[dedok0525]

If you want to win a tournament, you have to give up too cautious playing style. There is no need to be a maniac. But you need to use the potential of their hands, and the weakness of their opponents. If you're chasing a pair, I'll be glad to raise after you limp. Even with a hand weaker than yours I will be a winner.

 

[Pickat]

It might be ok with weaker starting hands like suited connecters and small pairs but stronger hands should be raised to eliminate opponents . You ideally want to be against 1 player with strong hands .IMO

 

[bakreni]

in the new poker theory the limp is no more bad thing so limp is now + EV.. atleast I think so .. and of course if it is not limping constantly

 

[MatMackenz]

I would rather fold then limp in. If I was too limp, it would be speculative hands, and only from earlier positions when fold equity is very low. The ONLY scenario in which I would consider limping is when playing very deep stacks, against a extremely passive table, and with 22-88 and Mid-High Suited Connectors (Not Suited Broadways Ever).

Against a more aggressive table, you are going to end up limp/folding, limp/calling OOP and/or going to flops multi-way. None of these scenarios are very profitable, as you must highly rely on hand-strength in order to win the hand. The stacks must be deep enough for you to get paid off large enough when you hit for all the times you missed.

When you limp in, you are also capping your range, unless you also limp in with premium hands.

So to an opponent that is paying attention (or has Note Making Software like NoteCaddy) will know that you have a capped range in this situation and will be able to play accordingly. (What this essentailly means is it is unlikely for you to hold high broadway cards or big pairs, as your range consists of low pairs and speculative hands).

Never ever limp in from Late position, (Completing from SB is ok), you lose your fold equity and invite the BB to get in there for free with 2 random cards.

This guy thought it was a good idea to limp for the BTN with QJ..

Actually, PokarStars School doesn't say never limp. There's a whole section on position where it clearly states that when holding marginal hands and small pairs on the button or late position you might call if players before you called in order to see a cheap flop with the aim of either hitting the flop or folding.

It's not a case of should you or shouldn't you limp but rather a case of position, other players in the pot and what you hope to achieve.

I think the entire thread is about OPEN LIMPING and not Limping behind. These are two very different things. Limping behind is perfectly fine, because you are offered such great pot odds to be able to hit a good hand on the flop. You definitely should be limping behind in some situations where you have good position, a hand that plays well in multi-way situations and the stacks are deep enough to benefit from implied odds.

 

[finaltable1]

I would rather fold then limp in. If I was too limp, it would be speculative hands, and only from earlier positions when fold equity is very low. The ONLY scenario in which I would consider limping is when playing very deep stacks, against a extremely passive table, and with 22-88 and Mid-High Suited Connectors (Not Suited Broadways Ever).

Against a more aggressive table, you are going to end up limp/folding, limp/calling OOP and/or going to flops multi-way. None of these scenarios are very profitable, as you must highly rely on hand-strength in order to win the hand. The stacks must be deep enough for you to get paid off large enough when you hit for all the times you missed.

When you limp in, you are also capping your range, unless you also limp in with premium hands.

So to an opponent that is paying attention (or has Note Making Software like NoteCaddy) will know that you have a capped range in this situation and will be able to play accordingly. (What this essentailly means is it is unlikely for you to hold high broadway cards or big pairs, as your range consists of low pairs and speculative hands).

Never ever limp in from Late position, (Completing from SB is ok), you lose your fold equity and invite the BB to get in there for free with 2 random cards.

This guy thought it was a good idea to limp for the BTN with QJ..

I think the entire thread is about OPEN LIMPING and not Limping behind. These are two very different things. Limping behind is perfectly fine, because you are offered such great pot odds to be able to hit a good hand on the flop. You definitely should be limping behind in some situations where you have good position, a hand that plays well in multi-way situations and the stacks are deep enough to benefit from implied odds.

Ohh you've deleted your reply to my post

Several years ago I've contacted PokerStars support team with a question "Why my Aces never win?" They replied me with stats, my win/loss ratio for pocket aces was 54/46 for tourneys. My mistake was pre flop raise 3-4bb from any position and i was trying to look weak with aces every time I had them, like if it's unbeatable hand... I switched to limp/all-in in early positions or bet 8-10bb or more if tourney has just started if i'm in MP with no bets before me, or simply all-in re-raise if I'm in lp... and you know what? I'd better collect the blinds and small bets then let some hero hit his str8/flush or 2 pairs with his trashy good looking Jh9h. It works well. I can fold aces during cash games, but I can't afford to lose part of my stack during the tourney, especially if it's 20-30bb stack and tourney is bounty hunt. Weak play of premium hands is a mistake, limp/3bet or limp/all-in is the best option for UTG-EP if table is really aggressive. If i know that 2-3 players behind me are the fans of blinds stealing, I will always limp aces. If they will also limp, then I have a choice to fold my investment which is just 1BB. But if they will call my 3bet - I will be sure that there is a AT+ or pocket pair against me, not some suited connector. Not too many players invest high % of their stack to see the flop with 89s. But anyway, just like I said before - those who limp frequently with top/mid or bad hands need a nurse. I can't see any sense in limping, no pot control, no protection, no nothing, absolutely no sense in frequent limping if you're playing a serious game. But LOL I do limp sometimes in CC freerolls and small tourneys, just because I work during poker sessions and sometimes I don't have time to think or act correctly, I just press some button after sound alarm at the poker window which is at the other monitor, and sometimes i click call instead of a simple raise. Never do such BS if poker game has all of my attention.

 

[MatMackenz]

Ohh you've deleted your reply to my post

Sorry, I was trying to combine all my posts into one,, and I accidentally deleted it.

Win/Lose ratio of having Aces @ 54/46 just does not seem right to me. This has to be due to some horribly bad varience.

I have only been tracking my play for about a month or so now. I have just checked and of the 31 times I have had Aces, I have lost 4 pots in tournament play across 7000 hands. (I dont play much volume)