***July SnG Thread***

[cjatud2012]

I noticed there is a lack of DON strategy guides on this site. So, I've decided to give the $1 tables a shot, try to understand the game better, workout a decent strategy, and possibly share it with CC if I well.

I'm more interested in the $5 DONs, especially the turbos with it's 4% rake. I don't see how the $1 and $5 games differ that much. So, if I come up with a solid strategy for the $1, it will probably be good enough for the $5. I'm just playing the $1 now until I get a full grasp of the game.

...So, I guess that's my July goal. To come up with a decent DON guide.

WurlyQ came up with a really awesome guide as he was going through a BR challenge, I'd do a search for the thread, it's really worth reading if you wanna get into it. It has some good general SNG knowledge too.

 

[ph_il]

I wouldn't call it a guide, but I posted something about my approach to DONs after "discovering" them a few months ago. I ran smokin' hot in them for awhile, winning I think 20 of my first 22 played, including a couple of shots at the $20 ones. It was like printing money. Then I lost a few in a row, figured the magic was gone, and got away from them for a bit. Since starting them up again at the $1 and $5 levels, I'm running maybe 50% over the last dozen or so. I moved up to a $10 one again last night just to get in another quick game before bed, and managed to win it. The problem for me is switching gears between these and regular SnGs/MTTs. If I'm playing only DONs I do well, but if I'm sprinkling in other games I tend to lose more of them.

I still think these are highly profitable if you adjust your game to them. For instance, most conventional SnG strategy is to nit up early, hoping to survive into the money where you then turn on the juice for the win. In DONs the money = the win and I find the opposite approach works better. Accumulate a healthy stack early, then coast into the money/win. You don't care about being chip leader, because it doesn't matter -- you just need to be in the top half. When you get down to, say, 7 handed and there are 3 short stacks in there, and you're in 2nd or 3rd position, tighten way up and avoid unnecessary confrontation. Unless you've just got a super stack that can afford several confrontations, don't get aggressive against the shortstacks trying to knock them out with marginal hands because it's very easy to swap stacks with them, leaving you suddenly fighting for your life. Especially in the turbos where the blinds & antes are eating their stacks rapidly. I've folded hands like QQ pre before when we're 6-handed and I've got a comfortable stack in say 3rd place. I'd never do that in a regular SnG that paid top 3. Also, if you do find yourself on the bubble with a short stack, it's not as important to get it in with ATC as long as there are other stacks close to yours that are willing to be aggressive. As long as you can afford the blinds & antes, let them knock themselves out. I've won several DONs as the shortest stack, with only a few bb left, after confrontations between two medium stacks. Obviously this is situational like anything else in poker, but DONs definitely require a different mindset than regular SnGs, at least to me.

Good post, very similar to how I am approaching/seeing the game.

I've taken the TAG approach early in the games, playing on strong premium hands in early-mid positions. However, with everyone else playing tight, I start blind stealing from the start and I usually manage to pick-up a lot of blinds. By the 3rd level, when antes kick in, I know if the blinds I'm attacking play uber nitty or not and I either be more hand selective when I steal or I just raise ATC.

Picking up pots is a lot easier in these games, too. I'm in late position with 4 other players before me, they all check, I throw out a bet and usually will pick up the pot. Bets don't even have to be that big either. I'm usually betting about 1/3 the pot in DON's when I try to steal the pot. Usually players are trying to conserve chips so they don't want to call without anything and if I am called/raised, i'm not risking a lot of chips. Also, with raising PF, I raise a less than I normally would in a regular SNG. I raise about 2.75-3x BB in DON's during the early rounds. Again, play is tight so I don't need to raise big to get folds and I do face a 3-bet I can fold easily if I need to. As blinds increase, I find that min-bets are just as effective when blind stealing/stealing pots.

 

[cardplayer52]

I hate the jump from 2.20's to 5.50's. I have 90 buyins for the 2's, but I'm using a 40 buyin limit to move up. So I'm just shy of the mark for 5's. But I may wait until I have 50 anyway just to make it that much more of a cushion.

I like to keep 100buyins for each level I play. But I'll take shots before I have 100buyins for the next level. So basically I stayed at the $2s until I had over $225 in my BR, then I'd buyin to as many $5s i could until I had $225 then fill up the rest of my tables in my session with $2s then as tables dropped I only would buyin to the $2s until the end of my session. After a few winning sessions I was able to play all $5s and hopefully be able to move to the $10s maybe at the end of the month.

 

[onemorechance]

I have so much respect for people who grind sngs, you're all batshit crazy

Edit - gah no more posts so can't reply

Haha nah not trolling Honestly I've tried to grind sngs more than once, I just can't comprehend how you all manage it lol. The dark side could never take me

 

[Debi]

I have so much respect for people who grind sngs, you're all batshit crazy

Are you trolling in my thread?

 

[cjatud2012]

I have so much respect for people who grind sngs, you're all batshit crazy

You're crazy for not grinding SNG's!

 

[dg1267]

I know it sucks but don't get caught up in it. You got all your money in while you were still ahead. You want idiots like this shoving into your kings with 63o, no draw, and bottom pair. You just got unlucky on the river this time. Would you rather he actually folded preflop? I'm almost always disappointed when my AA and KK hands don't get any action.

Oh, I know. Just sucks because that pissed me off through the rest of the session. Still working on that tilt thing. But did come back to take 2nd in this one.

I like to keep 100buyins for each level I play. But I'll take shots before I have 100buyins for the next level. So basically I stayed at the $2s until I had over $225 in my BR, then I'd buyin to as many $5s i could until I had $225 then fill up the rest of my tables in my session with $2s then as tables dropped I only would buyin to the $2s until the end of my session. After a few winning sessions I was able to play all $5s and hopefully be able to move to the $10s maybe at the end of the month.

This might be a good way to do it. Thanks CP.

 

[OzExorcist]

I have so much respect for people who grind sngs, you're all batshit crazy

I think I've heard them described as the crack-cocaine of poker more than once...

Now is it just in my head, or is there really a big jump in skill from the $6 to the $11 turbos on Full Tilt? I'm doing pretty well in the $6s and theoretically I'm rolled for the $11s but every time I take a shot at them I get my arse handed to me so I drop back down to the $6s where I'm comfortable. Ugh.

 

[dg1267]

I think I've heard them described as the crack-cocaine of poker more than once...

Now is it just in my head, or is there really a big jump in skill from the $6 to the $11 turbos on Full Tilt? I'm doing pretty well in the $6s and theoretically I'm rolled for the $11s but every time I take a shot at them I get my arse handed to me so I drop back down to the $6s where I'm comfortable. Ugh.

You're probably going to see a lot more good regs there. Which would explain the "arse handing" you are talking about.

 

[OzExorcist]

You're probably going to see a lot more good regs there. Which would explain the "arse handing" you are talking about.

Quite possibly, yeah. I think one problem is probably that I haven't played enough games there to reliably identify them... which comes back to my original question, is the skill jump really that big?

Anywho, going to have a crack at another set of $11s now, wish me luck or run good or something people

 

[WiZZiM]

Don't know about tilt, but i know that the jump in skill on stars is huge from the 6's to 16's, so id say its not quite as bad on tilt, but there will be a big skill differance id say..

 

[Debi]

I don't know about the turbos at FT - but the jump from $5.50's to $11's at PS is HUGE. I moved up to the $11's early this year and after 2 months of success proceeded to get crushed every month thereafter. I fnally made myself drop to the $5.50's in the past week and the difference is unbelievable.

Guess I will be playing them for a while now lol.

 

[OzExorcist]

Hmmm... looks like I've definitely got some improving to do then. Thanks for the feedback guys.

Played four $11s in my last session, got a 9th, two 5ths and a 3rd. Overall I'm down about 14 buy ins in my first 40 games. One thing I've definitely been noticing is having to fold to preflop three-bets and flop check-raises a lot more than in the $6s where it seems those kind of plays happen less often - villains in the $6s definitely seem more passive. Some range fiddling is in order, methinks...

I'm gonna keep trying them mixed in with the $6s, will try to post a few hands here or over in HA for discussion.

 

[Debi]

Yep - that is the same thing I am finding. Also you will find short-handed play to be a breeze at the lower level - the only hu games I lose are ones where I get a few bad beats. They are so passive and easy to read it is pathetic lol.

I am just increasing the number of tables I play to make up for some of the difference. I only played 6 tables of the $11's and I can play 8-9 of the $5.50's.

 

[cardplayer52]

Oz there is a huge jump in skill from the $6.50s to the $12s. I think the main reason is most players learning SNGs start at the lower buyin turbos then work there way up to the $12s. I'm not sure there are any more regs than at the $6.50s but most are a lot better than the $6.50 reg. I know some players that had success at the $6.50s then never could make it at the $12s. Most of them end up moving to stars.

 

[cjatud2012]

Hah, good thing I'm about to move up to the $12's myself... Darn. I'll probably just stick with the $6.50's as I start to work more with SNGWiz, that way I can improve my play and cushion my BR for the initial swing at the $12's, lol.

 

[dg1267]

I'm not sure there are any more regs than at the $6.50s but most are a lot better than the $6.50 reg.

Hey, I said a lot more "good" regs!

On another note, I'm starting to add tables a lot more comfortably. Before, I couldn't do more than 4 without going totally batty, but now I'm up to playing 6 just fine. 2 more weeks and I should be hitting the 8 table mark.

 

[OzExorcist]

OK, so I've definitely got a challenge on my hands then.

Next question, is a fairly standard tight early then push-fold 10BB strategy going to be enough to beat the $11s or will I need to start looking at making three-bet shove resteals and stuff a bigger part of my game? At the moment I'm not using them a great deal.

Are the games really that much softer on Stars, BTW?

Thanks again for the input guys. Also yay me, 4K postaments

 

[Debi]

OK, so I've definitely got a challenge on my hands then.

Next question, is a fairly standard tight early then push-fold 10BB strategy going to be enough to beat the $11s or will I need to start looking at making three-bet shove resteals and stuff a bigger part of my game? At the moment I'm not using them a great deal.

Are the games really that much softer on Stars, BTW?

Thanks again for the input guys. Also yay me, 4K postaments

No way can you beat the $11's with the standard plays - you will definitely need to step it up a few notches.

The games are not softer at PS at all.

Congrats on 4k!

 

[dg1267]

Congrats on 4k Oz! I'm getting close!

 

[dmorris68]

The games are not softer at PS at all.

For SnG's maybe, I haven't played enough on Stars really to compare. Cash however, at least at the 25NL - 100NL range, I found to be noticeably softer on Stars back when I switched to FT for most of my play. However I did seem to do better at FT once I started playing tourneys there, than I did when I started out playing them on Stars, so perhaps Stars was tougher. Of course I think my game has improved quite a bit too since then, so it's hard to say for sure. I've started playing a few here and there on Stars again, like before and after CC games, but mostly DONs which are really a different beast anyway.

 

[ph_il]

So, after a session at the $1 DON's I've decided that grinding them out isn't something that I don't think I want to do now. I didn't have a bad session or anything, but i don't think the strategy behind the game really suits me. I think, since I know more about them, sticking with normal turbo SNGs is probably best for me.

I guess I was sort of tossing the idea of grinding the $5 Turbo DONs or the $3 6-max SNGs. I'm sure with the DON's I'll end up with a better ROI and variance is a lot lower as well. However, the games can be a bit time consuming and my profit/games may be very low. Here I'm looking at a game that'll probably give me a slow, steady rate of profit without a lot swings involved but it'll take a lot of time and grinding to get there.

If I go with the $3 6-max turbo SNG's, I know my ROI will be much lower as the variance is much higher in these games, but I can get in a higher volume of games @ almost 2-3x as many as it would take me to play a DoN. Also, with better pay-outs, my profit/games will be much higher. Here, I'm looking at much faster profits, more games played, but also more swings and heavy variance.

So, it's either I want to avoid downswings or I want to make money-which is more important? I can profit from both regardless, but i think if I'm going to put in so much effort into a 10 tabling DoNs, I might as well play 10 table the $3 SNGs 2-3x in the same time period and probably show more profit for it. My graph might just be a bit uglier...

 

[dmorris68]

^^^ You find the turbo DONs slow? They're pretty quick to me. Funny though, tonight I've played a few $10 DONs and once I accidentally reg'ed for a non-turbo one. About 15 minutes in I'm wondering why the heck are things moving so slow? It was a nitfest too. I won it but was so frustrated after playing a bunch of turbos.

I'm also finding a lot of high-volume regs grinding the DONs now it seems. Tonight alone out of maybe 6 games I've played with two different SuperNovas and a bunch of Gold and Platinum players. One of the SNs was regged in every $10 Turbo DON in the lobby.

 

[DaveE]

Accidentally signed up for a stars knockout sng...lol

pokerstars Tournament #293653954, No Limit Hold'em
Buy-In: $10.00/$2.50/$1.00 USD
9 players
Total Prize Pool: $90.00 USD
Tournament started 2010/07/20 23:32:59 ET


Dear killer3333,

You finished the tournament in 1st place. A USD 45.00 award has been credited to your real money account.

You earned 45 Sit & Go Leader Board Points for the Earth Division in this tournament. For more information about our Sit & Go Leader Boards, see our website at http://www.pokerstars.com/poker/promotions/battle/

You have also received USD 15.00 in Knockout Bounties for this tournament. You won bounties for the following players: luckymistery, YET2B RICH, tkf_2005, tiecoon, jcolter, killer3333
Note: As you won the tournament, you also won your own bounty.



Congratulations!

Thank you for participating.

 

[ph_il]

^^^ You find the turbo DONs slow? They're pretty quick to me. Funny though, tonight I've played a few $10 DONs and once I accidentally reg'ed for a non-turbo one. About 15 minutes in I'm wondering why the heck are things moving so slow? It was a nitfest too. I won it but was so frustrated after playing a bunch of turbos.

I'm also finding a lot of high-volume regs grinding the DONs now it seems. Tonight alone out of maybe 6 games I've played with two different SuperNovas and a bunch of Gold and Platinum players. One of the SNs was regged in every $10 Turbo DON in the lobby.

I think they're a bit slow at times. And I think I'm just too used to playing normal SNGs...there are so many times where I'm playing a DoN with a hand and I'm think...'Man, I should really 3-bet shove this hand and pick up this pot...but wait there is a super short stack about to be in the blinds and were one from the bubble...too much to just call...augh!" ...Then I fold.