***July SnG Thread***

dg1267

dg1267

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Yeah, the turn I'm not just calling. I'm making a decision to ship it or fold. And as played, I'm calling the river as well. It's either you win the hand and dub up or you lose and you go on to play another. I don't want to be a couple of hands into a tourney and down that far trying to fight back.

You posted your next post while I was typing mine. Knowing villain is a good player, I'm folding pre. Even though it's AK, you can't really be too happy with any flop except a straight, and any paired board could screw that up. So just easier to fold and wait for better.
 
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WiZZiM

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I meant to add that villain is pretty solid player, 4% ROI over like 23,000 games around the $4 level.

I feel like I didn't think at all during the hand lol. It is 2AM over here, after all...
4% is pretty bad, refine the search to what games he is playing now, he either played higher stakes lost and dropped down, or he has a lot of leaks, 4% while it's not bad, it's not exactly world beating either.

Anyways, after this knowledge folding pre becomes a lot easierm since we know if we whiff the flop were folding to a C-bet like, always. And even if we spike the ace were splitting a lot of the time, or not getting paid by KK QQ.
 
dg1267

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Anyways, after this knowledge folding pre becomes a lot easierm since we know if we whiff the flop were folding to a C-bet like, always. And even if we spike the ace were splitting a lot of the time, or not getting paid by KK QQ.

This is exactly what my coach has been beating into me lately. If we're not a good favorite going into a hand early, and we feel we can beat most of the table in bubble play, to just not get involved here. I know it sounds really tight, but it makes tons of sense and is aimed at hands like AKo, JJ, and even possibly QQ early in a tourney.

Now if we're at 40/80 blinds and down to 6 players it would make a lot of difference.

I suck at math, but do we beat the ICM tax by calling Wizzim?
 
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WiZZiM

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Sorry im a little slow, what do you mean by ICM tax?
 
Debi

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Yea in these early blinds I would definitely be giving that hand up against him when the flop was missed.
 
dg1267

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ICM tax is the % of equity you lose if you go HU with someone first hand or whatever and win. You don't double your equity like you double your chips. Some of the equity goes to the other players left in the tourney because there is 1 less player (the losing player in the hand) left in the tourney.

You should be able to google it to find out how to run the numbers, but I'm really horrible at that and I don't want to put bad info in here.
 
cjatud2012

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This is exactly what my coach has been beating into me lately. If we're not a good favorite going into a hand early, and we feel we can beat most of the table in bubble play, to just not get involved here. I know it sounds really tight, but it makes tons of sense and is aimed at hands like AKo, JJ, and even possibly QQ early in a tourney.

Now if we're at 40/80 blinds and down to 6 players it would make a lot of difference.

This makes sense. I thought I was playing tight by just calling, hah.

Anyway, I ended up folding the river. I probably should have just folded the turn if that's what I was gonna do on the river, but oh well.

I suck at math, but do we beat the ICM tax by calling Wizzim?

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think this is a spot where this really applies... To me it'd seem like I'd apply it when we're 9-handed and we're in the BB, it folds around to the SB who shoves. Then we'd have to risk our entire equity to win our opponents stack. Here, there's not an imminent all-in, so I don't know if you can use the same logic. Plus, when there's dead money in the pot, the equity you need for a play to be profitable goes down, so since there's my bet and a third bet in the pot, I wouldn't need to be a strong favorite anyway.
 
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ICM tax is the % of equity you lose if you go HU with someone first hand or whatever and win. You don't double your equity like you double your chips. Some of the equity goes to the other players left in the tourney because there is 1 less player (the losing player in the hand) left in the tourney.

You should be able to google it to find out how to run the numbers, but I'm really horrible at that and I don't want to put bad info in here.

Oh right, yeah doesnt really apply since were not Aipf. but if we were. we know that gettting it in early is better in terms of icm 'tax' than getting it in late.

check out this site if you want to run the numbers, you will find that your not spewing a hell of a lot if you get it in early. even flipping early isn't horrible, it's not something we want to do though. And against this guys range, were not really flipping i dont think.

No need to google it. all we need is a ICM calculator. www.chillin411.com theres one on that.
 
cardplayer52

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the AK i think i could fold preflop. but if you feel priced in to call i think you have to bet out on the flop. your OOP and i see it as about your only option. you don't want to check and give him more reason to cbet the flop. as played the check/behind on the turn scares me. he's either allowing you to catch up because he got a monster or taking a free card. on the turn i agree w/wizzim you need to call here always. i don't like it at all but think its a must. the fact the villain isn't slowed down by the ace here when it really should smash your range you could find a fold here but i think you need a better read on the villain to make it IMO. also the 4% after 25k games doesn't necessarily mean the villain had huge holes. I'm only 2% after 10k games but run consistently run over 10% roi now.
 
dg1267

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Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think this is a spot where this really applies... To me it'd seem like I'd apply it when we're 9-handed and we're in the BB, it folds around to the SB who shoves. Then we'd have to risk our entire equity to win our opponents stack. Here, there's not an imminent all-in, so I don't know if you can use the same logic. Plus, when there's dead money in the pot, the equity you need for a play to be profitable goes down, so since there's my bet and a third bet in the pot, I wouldn't need to be a strong favorite anyway.

You don't have to be AIPF before you want to start thinking about the ICM tax. Actually, you should be thinking about it anytime there looks like a pot has the potential to become a big pot, and any time there is a 3bet it has that potential (as shown by the river shove). I'll run this hand by Bill because he understands it so much better than I do. Even with an ICM calculator I still feel like I have an IQ of 8.5.:rolleyes:

we know that gettting it in early is better in terms of icm 'tax' than getting it in late.

I'm not sure what you mean here by getting it in "early" and "late". Do you mean in the hand, or in the tourney?

Edit: I hope I'm not sounding argumentative, but really I'm just jumping in this to help myself learn, because you do run into this quite often.
 
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dg1267

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Okay, checked it with Bill and you're right, cjatud. It really only applies AIPF, so I misunderstood it. He said a flat call there is okay, but he would fold unless he could put AQ, TT type hands in his range. So, sorry about the mis-information.
 
dg1267

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And just for the record...

I'm having a completely awesome, ripping chips from donkeys, day today! Just thought I'd post that.

Can you spot where the good times start?
 

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WiZZiM

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You don't have to be AIPF before you want to start thinking about the ICM tax. Actually, you should be thinking about it anytime there looks like a pot has the potential to become a big pot, and any time there is a 3bet it has that potential (as shown by the river shove). I'll run this hand by Bill because he understands it so much better than I do. Even with an ICM calculator I still feel like I have an IQ of 8.5.:rolleyes:



I'm not sure what you mean here by getting it in "early" and "late". Do you mean in the hand, or in the tourney?

Edit: I hope I'm not sounding argumentative, but really I'm just jumping in this to help myself learn, because you do run into this quite often.
What im getting at is, if you decided to shove the AK, and get called, it's better to do it earlier, than for instance, if someone shoves into you and you call with AK. I actually wrote something about it in 'finer points of sng wizard' about why exactly it's really bad to get it in later on in the game.
 
dg1267

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What im getting at is, if you decided to shove the AK, and get called, it's better to do it earlier, than for instance, if someone shoves into you and you call with AK. I actually wrote something about it in 'finer points of sng wizard' about why exactly it's really bad to get it in later on in the game.

Are we talking about AK in specific or any hand? I'll have to go find that post.

And I need to buy SnG Wizard as well. I'm really hoping to have it by the end of the month.
 
cardplayer52

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Poker is just hating on me the last few days. If this continues I'll have to drop back down. These are just the $5.50s I guess it serves my right for saying how easy these were. :rolleyes:
 

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Sexy red line, stick at it i say...

well lose another 14buyins BRM policy forces me to move down. I'm a little under rolled for the $5s as it is but over rolled for the $2s. But yes I'm happy with the redline. But I'm now wondering if running under EV makes some of my shoves -EV. I'm yes I'm ahead of their range when they call me as a whole, but if there calling that wide maybe I need to tighten up.
 
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I noticed there is a lack of DON strategy guides on this site. So, I've decided to give the $1 tables a shot, try to understand the game better, workout a decent strategy, and possibly share it with CC if I well.

I'm more interested in the $5 DONs, especially the turbos with it's 4% rake. I don't see how the $1 and $5 games differ that much. So, if I come up with a solid strategy for the $1, it will probably be good enough for the $5. I'm just playing the $1 now until I get a full grasp of the game.

...So, I guess that's my July goal. To come up with a decent DON guide.
 
dg1267

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I hate the jump from 2.20's to 5.50's. I have 90 buyins for the 2's, but I'm using a 40 buyin limit to move up. So I'm just shy of the mark for 5's. But I may wait until I have 50 anyway just to make it that much more of a cushion.
 
dmorris68

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I noticed there is a lack of DON strategy guides on this site. So, I've decided to give the $1 tables a shot, try to understand the game better, workout a decent strategy, and possibly share it with CC if I well.

I'm more interested in the $5 DONs, especially the turbos with it's 4% rake. I don't see how the $1 and $5 games differ that much. So, if I come up with a solid strategy for the $1, it will probably be good enough for the $5. I'm just playing the $1 now until I get a full grasp of the game.

...So, I guess that's my July goal. To come up with a decent DON guide.
I wouldn't call it a guide, but I posted something about my approach to DONs after "discovering" them a few months ago. I ran smokin' hot in them for awhile, winning I think 20 of my first 22 played, including a couple of shots at the $20 ones. It was like printing money. Then I lost a few in a row, figured the magic was gone, and got away from them for a bit. Since starting them up again at the $1 and $5 levels, I'm running maybe 50% over the last dozen or so. I moved up to a $10 one again last night just to get in another quick game before bed, and managed to win it. The problem for me is switching gears between these and regular SnGs/MTTs. If I'm playing only DONs I do well, but if I'm sprinkling in other games I tend to lose more of them.

I still think these are highly profitable if you adjust your game to them. For instance, most conventional SnG strategy is to nit up early, hoping to survive into the money where you then turn on the juice for the win. In DONs the money = the win and I find the opposite approach works better. Accumulate a healthy stack early, then coast into the money/win. You don't care about being chip leader, because it doesn't matter -- you just need to be in the top half. When you get down to, say, 7 handed and there are 3 short stacks in there, and you're in 2nd or 3rd position, tighten way up and avoid unnecessary confrontation. Unless you've just got a super stack that can afford several confrontations, don't get aggressive against the shortstacks trying to knock them out with marginal hands because it's very easy to swap stacks with them, leaving you suddenly fighting for your life. Especially in the turbos where the blinds & antes are eating their stacks rapidly. I've folded hands like QQ pre before when we're 6-handed and I've got a comfortable stack in say 3rd place. I'd never do that in a regular SnG that paid top 3. Also, if you do find yourself on the bubble with a short stack, it's not as important to get it in with ATC as long as there are other stacks close to yours that are willing to be aggressive. As long as you can afford the blinds & antes, let them knock themselves out. I've won several DONs as the shortest stack, with only a few bb left, after confrontations between two medium stacks. Obviously this is situational like anything else in poker, but DONs definitely require a different mindset than regular SnGs, at least to me.
 
dg1267

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I just went to pokerstars.com and used their VIP level calculator and it said playing 75 $5 SnG's per week (which is the minimum I play) I would be at a Gold Star level. Right now I'm playing at FT and have r/b, but only playing the 2.20's for now. Once I get up to the 5.50 limit and am comfortable, should I switch to Stars? Or is it just one of those deals where it's either way is good?
 
Debi

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If you get rb at FT you will get more money there with that and Iron Man than you would in VIP benefits at PS.

If you haven't received all of the initial Stellar Rewards at PS then until then it probably rivals FT. But once you get past the first $50 level it slows wayyyyyy down.
 
dg1267

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If you get rb at FT you will get more money there with that and Iron Man than you would in VIP benefits at PS.

If you haven't received all of the initial Stellar Rewards at PS then until then it probably rivals FT. But once you get past the first $50 level it slows wayyyyyy down.

Okay, thanks. I would rather stay at FT, but didn't know much about stars and thought I'd ask. Stars graphics makes me sick.:s:
 
dg1267

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Can we say "uber monkey tilt"? Really pisses me off that Table Ninja failed to focus on this table and didn't make my bet size 3x. Guess that's what I get for failing to check it.:(

full tilt poker $2 + $0.25 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t25/t50 Blinds - 7 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

SB: t2795 M = 37.27
BB: t2953 M = 39.37
UTG: t4110 M = 54.80
Hero (UTG+1): t935 M = 12.47
MP: t146 M = 1.95
CO: t1236 M = 16.48
BTN: t1325 M = 17.67

Pre Flop: (t75) Hero is UTG+1 with K:heart: K:club:
1 fold, Hero raises to t100, 4 folds, BB calls t50

Flop: (t225) 8:club: 7:heart: Q:diamond: (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets t225, BB calls t225

Turn: (t675) 3:heart: (2 players)
BB bets t750, Hero calls t610 all in

River: (t1895) 6:spade: (2 players - 1 is all in)
Hero says "nice play moron"

Final Pot: t1895
BB shows 6:diamond: 3:club: (two pair, Sixes and Threes)
Hero shows K:heart: K:club: (a pair of Kings)
BB wins t1895
 
dmorris68

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Can we say "uber monkey tilt"? Really pisses me off that Table Ninja failed to focus on this table and didn't make my bet size 3x. Guess that's what I get for failing to check it.:(

Full Tilt Poker $2 + $0.25 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t25/t50 Blinds - 7 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

SB: t2795 M = 37.27
BB: t2953 M = 39.37
UTG: t4110 M = 54.80
Hero (UTG+1): t935 M = 12.47
MP: t146 M = 1.95
CO: t1236 M = 16.48
BTN: t1325 M = 17.67

Pre Flop: (t75) Hero is UTG+1 with K K
1 fold, Hero raises to t100, 4 folds, BB calls t50

Flop: (t225) 8 7 Q (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets t225, BB calls t225

Turn: (t675) 3 (2 players)
BB bets t750, Hero calls t610 all in

River: (t1895) 6 (2 players - 1 is all in)
Hero says "nice play moron"

Final Pot: t1895
BB shows 6 3 (two pair, Sixes and Threes)
Hero shows K K (a pair of Kings)
BB wins t1895
I know it sucks but don't get caught up in it. You got all your money in while you were still ahead. You want idiots like this shoving into your kings with 63o, no draw, and bottom pair. You just got unlucky on the river this time. Would you rather he actually folded preflop? ;) I'm almost always disappointed when my AA and KK hands don't get any action.
 
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