BearPlay
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Jblocher1
Legend
Silver Level
Does the fact that I understand your tongue-in-cheek humor make me just as twisted?
Yeah you are twisted fo sho
Jacki Burkhart
long winded rambler...
Silver Level
I copied and pasted this quote from the other hyper thread.
Ok. my question is about constructing a shove/fold chart. This is probably a dumb question and something I'm already supposed to know...but I don't know how to do that.
I mean, I know what they are and how to reference them. I have several nash charts by my computer for use at certain stack sizes, but I assume you mean making one all on my own from scratch like a big girl, to be specifically used for Hyper 6max SnGs....right?
would I use software to assist me, like excel and SnG wizard? what types of info am I using to decide whether or not a certain shove is profitable?
if you don't mind....'splain it to me like I'm 5 years old.
I'm quite interested in doing this.
I was required to make a "chord wheel" in piano class when I was 9 years old and the lesson has stuck with me to this day, I can still play any chord or variation even though it's been 20+ years since I had a piano lesson, so I'm totally convinced of the value of figuring out these things for oneself.
Jacki Burkhart
long winded rambler...
Silver Level
OK, I have another question. I think I have a problem with small pocket pairs. my jamming range is no problem, my calling range is probably a bit too wide.
here's another thing that I've been doing that is probably wrong.
A super short stack jams for like 1.5 or 2 bbs.
I have a stack of about 8-12 bbs and a small pocket pair (22-55) in the button or SB and I jam over the top to isolate...but I've been getting called ridiculously light by the BB in these cases and then I end up facing 3 or 4 overs...so I must be doing something wrong...thoughts?
should we not be calling all-ins with small pocket pairs because we have no fold equity on our side and we're usually flipping?
here's another thing that I've been doing that is probably wrong.
A super short stack jams for like 1.5 or 2 bbs.
I have a stack of about 8-12 bbs and a small pocket pair (22-55) in the button or SB and I jam over the top to isolate...but I've been getting called ridiculously light by the BB in these cases and then I end up facing 3 or 4 overs...so I must be doing something wrong...thoughts?
should we not be calling all-ins with small pocket pairs because we have no fold equity on our side and we're usually flipping?
W
WiZZiM
Legend
Silver Level
against a 1-2BB stack we can iso-shove very wide, shoving all pairs totally fine in most spots, it really depends on the dynamic however.. Keep in mind card distribution is a bitch so it might seem like you get called in spots all the time, but in the long run it should even out. And also keep in mind that our brains tend to think about hands that stand out, you never really notice the times we jam over and bb folds and we win. but you sure as hell remember when we shove into pocket Aces and we get bubbled somehow.
The biggest leak i see in players starting out is not shoving wide enough, and not taking enough risks to get a stack before the bubble hits.
M
matt0216
Visionary
Silver Level
Yeah, you'd need to use some sort of icm calculator + excel. I've never really used sng wiz that much as there are better options out there now. I mostly use icmizer and think it's the easiest of them all to figure out, but sng solver is another good one imo.
Once you have the software, you'd pretty much just go through each spot. So, for example, you'd construct a range for utg at different stack depths then do the same for other positions.
For each scenario, just take your time and think about the ranges you expect to see villains shoving/calling with. Now, I definitely understand that putting villains on ranges for all these different spots is tough, but that's part of the learning process.
Once you have the ranges for the villains set, the software will calculate a profitable shoving/calling range based on the info you entered. Also, after you're done with your chart, you should continually refine it as you gain more experience. Your goal is to just end with a chart that gives you a good baseline in the games you play. One of the things you want to make sure you're paying attention to as you make it is how changing a villains range impacts your range. This will help you make adjustments in game when you run into a villain who is playing tighter/wider than what you normally expect.
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BearPlay
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Well I guess you'd just need shoving and calling, no need for a specific folding range, that can just be assumed from your shoving range. I have my shoving ranges for different stack sizes/position in one table and then in another I have my calling ranges. I don't really look at them when I play anymore, but they're still good to have and refer back to if needed
When a player is deepstack, a min raise can mean a lot of things. The first thing I'd look for is whether or not there's another big stack in play. So say you're at 15/30 and two stacks are at 600, I think it'd be perfectly reasonable for that player to want to open to 60 rather than jamming 20BB. In that scenario, I'd expect the raiser to call off any shove from the shorter stacks though.
You're right about the fold equity though and opening to 2BB against certain players would be really bad. I mean if you're raise folding a ton pre that's just terrible in these games, but there are definitely times where it's OK.
Other than that, you're also right that's it's very player player dependent lol. If you see a reg doing it a lot, you'd be able to figure out what they're doing pretty quickly, but you also might realize they're only min raising against certain players and against other regs they'll probably just jam, thus utilizing they're fold equity.
Solid points here, Matt, thanks. I neglected to clarify that all of the starting stacks at Carbon are 300, thus my interest about the min-raises. I'm beginning to see that a lot of deepstacks are exploiting ultra-tight players with these.
BluffMeAllIn
4evrInmyheart RIP xoxo :(
Silver Level
ima subbing since I'm playing hypers and all......all i will say for now is that A7 keeps beating my bigger aces and 77 just keeps beating me lol.........however i know its a variance thing with these and volume is key which I think I could put in a ton if I was playing hypers only.........played mostly hypers last night as got stuck a bunch early on and did some recovery but still red the last couple of nights.
GL all
GL all
Jblocher1
Legend
Silver Level
Jacki Burkhart
long winded rambler...
Silver Level
ok. some more questions...thoughts...whatevs
min raising...seems Ok in the first level and sometimes the 2nd level when you have AA,KK,AK....no? the one I am most curious about is the AK. I've done it a couple of times and gotten shoved on by worse aces and snapped off and it worked out pretty sweet.
anyways...I think I like that better than the idea of limping them. I'd rather min raise the AA,KK and limp the AK if I had to split it up, but for simplicity sake I'd think min raising all of them is OK since we're perfectly happy to call any preflop shove and we're perfectly happy to get it in on most flops.
another question is occasionally you get at one of those limpy tables. people are limping with hands as strong as AT/AJ/AQ sometimes. I've noted these players as I've come across them. what if I have a playable hand in my SB such as J9s for example and there are 1 or 2 limpers ahead of me in the first level. Seems like limping here might be ok?
anyways I have limped a couple of times in my SB in these spots and then check-folded or jammed on favorable flops, and on REALLY favorable flops check-raised all in.
both of these topics I discuss are still rare, but they do come up every 8-9 hyper tourneys or so...I'm just making sure i'm thinking about them correctly.
min raising...seems Ok in the first level and sometimes the 2nd level when you have AA,KK,AK....no? the one I am most curious about is the AK. I've done it a couple of times and gotten shoved on by worse aces and snapped off and it worked out pretty sweet.
anyways...I think I like that better than the idea of limping them. I'd rather min raise the AA,KK and limp the AK if I had to split it up, but for simplicity sake I'd think min raising all of them is OK since we're perfectly happy to call any preflop shove and we're perfectly happy to get it in on most flops.
another question is occasionally you get at one of those limpy tables. people are limping with hands as strong as AT/AJ/AQ sometimes. I've noted these players as I've come across them. what if I have a playable hand in my SB such as J9s for example and there are 1 or 2 limpers ahead of me in the first level. Seems like limping here might be ok?
anyways I have limped a couple of times in my SB in these spots and then check-folded or jammed on favorable flops, and on REALLY favorable flops check-raised all in.
both of these topics I discuss are still rare, but they do come up every 8-9 hyper tourneys or so...I'm just making sure i'm thinking about them correctly.
W
WiZZiM
Legend
Silver Level
in regards to shoving over limpers, you really want to tailor your range to be a dominating one if called. so shoving things like 55+ KJ, A8+ etc will be a good starting point, and of course stuff that just runs really good is also fine to shove, the j9s type hands you talk about, some players you can go looser, some you might consider tightening that range. But it's a good one to fall back onto if you are unsure what hands to shove vs random limper type plaeyrs.
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BearPlay
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
After Matt mentioned Nash, and Jacki was toying with the idea of push/fold charts, I did some research and found this:
http://www.pushfoldcharts.com/6max/
It seems that these push/fold charts were geared towards SS play, but are they a good starting place for HTT which, are in essence, SS play from the get-go?
My initial reaction is that these ranges are a bit wide, but that might be my own nitty bias sneaking in here.
http://www.pushfoldcharts.com/6max/
It seems that these push/fold charts were geared towards SS play, but are they a good starting place for HTT which, are in essence, SS play from the get-go?
My initial reaction is that these ranges are a bit wide, but that might be my own nitty bias sneaking in here.
M
matt0216
Visionary
Silver Level
I don't think it'd be a good idea to use those charts. It says they were designed for shortstack play in mtts leading up to the final table using a 90/10 payout structure. 6-max sngs are mostly 65/35 or sometimes 70/30. Also, there's no regard for position so it'd just be confusing.
The other big thing is that these charts ( and most charts you'll find online) use nash ranges and they're just not realistic for most scenarios. It's good to know those ranges because they can be used as a default point to adjust from, but shoving nash ranges would be bad since nobody is playing nash in these games.
You mentioned how you're initial reaction was that these ranges seemed a bit wide and that's one of the reasons why I even brought up these charts in the first place. There will be a ton of spots where the ranges you should be playing are much tighter, or wider than you would expect. The only way to get familiar with those spots is to actually go through the scenarios yourself and construct your own chart using more realistic ranges.
The other big thing is that these charts ( and most charts you'll find online) use nash ranges and they're just not realistic for most scenarios. It's good to know those ranges because they can be used as a default point to adjust from, but shoving nash ranges would be bad since nobody is playing nash in these games.
You mentioned how you're initial reaction was that these ranges seemed a bit wide and that's one of the reasons why I even brought up these charts in the first place. There will be a ton of spots where the ranges you should be playing are much tighter, or wider than you would expect. The only way to get familiar with those spots is to actually go through the scenarios yourself and construct your own chart using more realistic ranges.
Jblocher1
Legend
Silver Level
BearPlay
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
I use a HUD for most games but not for hypers. Not sure how valid those stats would be. I tend to be nitty for most games, but in the hypers not at all.
IMO the HUD stats would be misleading for most players, given the need for more aggression and the virtual nonexistence of post-flop play (consequently, AF isn't really viable), plus the reality that hypers are mostly a shove/fold game (consequently, VPIP and PFR aren't really viable).
I think it's much more important to look at positional plays, as opposed to VPI/PFR/AF.
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BluffMeAllIn
4evrInmyheart RIP xoxo :(
Silver Level
I think vpip/pfr/#ofhands is probably really the only thing that is of value with ht because there is no postflop play. I mean when you have lots of hands on opponents it lets you know if they limp alot in which case you can probably shove wider and steal, or if they have vpip/pfr with a small gap and limp then they might just have a prem hand looking to trap you into shoving.
I like # of hands because with slowely getting in a lot of volume it points out like a couple of hands in (cause it takes that long before my hud comes up usually) as to who are the grinders and who might be just starting out or trying out the ht's..........I think a hud has value no matter the format but with ht's imo you want a good 100 hands min to see a truer vpip/pfr because if running hot someone could easy look like an agrotard with the shove/fold in the hypers.
Have to say I'm enjoying the ht grind, if nothing else they are a nice way to keep up enough tables to keep me from getting bored when ending out a session or set and am down to like 2 tables of reg stt's that are just taking forever.
I like # of hands because with slowely getting in a lot of volume it points out like a couple of hands in (cause it takes that long before my hud comes up usually) as to who are the grinders and who might be just starting out or trying out the ht's..........I think a hud has value no matter the format but with ht's imo you want a good 100 hands min to see a truer vpip/pfr because if running hot someone could easy look like an agrotard with the shove/fold in the hypers.
Have to say I'm enjoying the ht grind, if nothing else they are a nice way to keep up enough tables to keep me from getting bored when ending out a session or set and am down to like 2 tables of reg stt's that are just taking forever.
BluffMeAllIn
4evrInmyheart RIP xoxo :(
Silver Level
+1 on both accounts, I still have lots to learn about my hud and pretty much just have minimal on it atm which i use accross the board (vpip/pfr/3bet/cbet/fcbet/#ofhands)........I think this is definately something I need to work on more and did initially have others but found it cluttered my tables too much when I'm tiling 12-16 on one monitor where the tables already have some overlap.
Thanks for the info though, much appreciated......I need to like ban myself from playing for a couple of days or something and take the time to work on some hud configs and learning to properly use my tracker :vroam: