Worak
Legend
Bronze Level
dimebag
Rising Star
Bronze Level
I agree with you 100%. There seems to be two camps in poker now, the purists and the money grinders. I think technology shouldn't be totally disregarded because it does help anyone improve, and yes you could get left behind.
For example, I could see using a HH analyzer of hands I've played to look at where I made mistakes. What happened when I started losing? Am I adjusting my game correctly when confronted with new players to the table? How well am I reading (although there is a big difference reading a table online vs live)? Still, am I missing the obvious?
Basically like watching game video to see where you can improve. I am more of a purist. I play poker because I like the challenge, and given the opportunity I would play live every day and rarely go online. Actually have a goal to live some place like Vegas.
I don't even like playing two tables. I agree, if you're using tech to play as many tables as the sites will allow to grind out money then you're not just playing a video game, ur playing a video game with add-ons that give you an advantage to win. Hell I'm sure some of you would be setting up bots if you were guaranteed to not get caught or sites didn't take action other than to ask you to stop.
I know I'm being general so don't take it personally, but I just really don't respect multi-table players looking for ez mode with the excuse that everyone else is doing it and thats how you make a living or whatever.
At the same time I support your right to play the game how you want assuming you're not hacking a sites true attempt to prevent certain software. I would ask that people consider having some restraint when it comes to tournaments and at least try to win as if you were playing a live event, but I guess when I cash or win I know I beat the odds and the software stat players.
E
eazy489
Enthusiast
Silver Level
here is an honest and accurate post regarding HUD's. Anyone who is telling you they don't help doesn't know what they are talking about. Some people prefer not to use them.
HUD's are immensely helpful. They track your opponents stats, from how many hands they are playing, to how often they 3 bet, 4 bet, fold to 3 bets etc. These stats are so helpful. Now, I'm not saying everyone should use a HUD. That is a personal preference. Very good players don't necessarily need HUD's to make $$ online. Tournament players IMO don't really need HUD's at all if they know what they are doing. But if you are a reg cash game player, a HUD is going to help you regardless of who you are and what stakes you are playing.
HUD's are immensely helpful. They track your opponents stats, from how many hands they are playing, to how often they 3 bet, 4 bet, fold to 3 bets etc. These stats are so helpful. Now, I'm not saying everyone should use a HUD. That is a personal preference. Very good players don't necessarily need HUD's to make $$ online. Tournament players IMO don't really need HUD's at all if they know what they are doing. But if you are a reg cash game player, a HUD is going to help you regardless of who you are and what stakes you are playing.
dimebag
Rising Star
Bronze Level
Ok, this is a feature quoted from Hold'em Manager website:
"Mucked display to see your opponents mucked cards"
That's not cheating? Players muck/show their cards for a reason, and they certainly are not going to show all of them. Try playing a live poker table and demanding to see someone's mucked cards because HEM lets you do it online and the online sites don't prevent it.
Oh, and there is a difference between allowing something, and deciding to not take steps to prevent something. I would stake my bets that most online sites are the latter. They're not going to spend money to prevent something as long as that something is not hurting their bottom line and it's not illegal. Even if the gaming commission demanded they take steps, they can string that out for a long time with cheap half-assed attempts until someone actually shows it can prevented with a high degree of confidence. Just because the door is unlocked doesn't mean I'm allowing you into my house, and just because I don't say anything when you come in all the time without knocking doesn't mean you can say I'm allowing you to do that. It just means you haven't done anything to mean or others in my house to piss me off enough to start locking the door and/or laying down the rules or else you can't come in speech.
Poker Orifice
FoolsTilt
Platinum Level
Pretty sure you can just click on HandHistory Replayer (or HH) & see villain's mucked cards anyways.
dimebag
Rising Star
Bronze Level
So let's see how far you want to take this. Let's say a site was dumb enough to have a loophole in their TOS, and there were no specific country laws preventing it, and you were able to develop software that allowed you to see everyone's hand at the table in real-time, then no problem right?
So padding your pockets at others expense because you found a loophole is just survival of the fittest, right?
Hell, you don't even care if the software is made available to everyone at the same price.
So if all sites post rules against it, but you know they really can't detect it, you'll stop using the software?
I don't think so, then you'll just argue that everyone else it doing it and it's the online poker site responsibility to enforce the rule.
Ya let's not take any responsibility when we can blame the business providing the service. It's their fault I can use add-ons to fleece the morons that don't know better.
LOL, no one is using HUDs against good players, it's used to gut the fish. They're the most likely to play predictably because they only know the basics, they haven't developed multiple styles and the ability to read well or even know when to change it up.
It's simply a method for experienced players to multi-table grind to build their bank roll. If anything if the stats are indicating experienced players then HUD users will just switch tables or stakes.
It's an opportunist tool to take advantage of the weak in online poker. I'm not saying everyone uses it that way, but come on, even the software vendors push that angle.
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mapt02h
Visionary
Silver Level
I actually prefer not to use a HUD when playing MTTs but that's because usually I am one tabling. This can really help your game as you can pick up people's tendencies and exploit them and thus give you some experience towards live play....
Stu_Ungar
Legend
Silver Level
Name one site that has such a loophole
Check out the Poker Rooms section. Every 2-3 weeks a player posts a thread along the lines of "Poker site stole my bankroll". It usually turns out that the player was doing something that the poker site prohibits in their T&C and eventually got found out.
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Shufflin
Visionary
Silver Level
If the sites didn't want multitabling and thus HUDs, they wouldn't give out the frequent player bonuses that they do.
I've seen this issue from both sides, as I've just installed the free PT3 trial after years of going without. Love the numbers, especially the insight into my own game. Almost in every case where I have previous notes on a player, the HUD stats support what I already figured. So yeah, I'm seeing it as a tool that organizes information that I would have anyway, but quicker and more efficiently.
I've seen this issue from both sides, as I've just installed the free PT3 trial after years of going without. Love the numbers, especially the insight into my own game. Almost in every case where I have previous notes on a player, the HUD stats support what I already figured. So yeah, I'm seeing it as a tool that organizes information that I would have anyway, but quicker and more efficiently.
Tenaciousplayer
Rock Star
Silver Level
I found this conversation very useful, as I was considering on buying a HUD, now I think I will continue to search for a free one instead of investing. But it was interesting here others view on the hows, whys, ifs and so forth.
cardriverx
Legend
Silver Level
You are allowed to do this live as well, but it is frowned upon.
Poker Orifice
FoolsTilt
Platinum Level
Bobby Orr played pretty decent w/o a helmet
Makwa
Undesirable Predator
Silver Level
If he tried that today he would be dead from concussion game 1. C'mon...
Ya and in those days there were 80 entries to the wsop and they all had books on each other...
Meanwhile, back to the present...
F4STFORW4RD
Visionary
Silver Level
They CAN be useful, but it does also depend on the person using it. A lot of people will buy a tracker because others say that they should, then never really bother working out how to use it well.
Pascal-lf
Legend
Silver Level
Lots of talk about how vital HUDs are - some people suggesting that they are crucial if you want to be able to play well...
Admittedly I use one but grijnding a couple of weeks ago with a friend who plays midstakes tournies (~$100bi) who is a solid reg, turns out he doesn't use a HUD and never has - doesn't stop him being insanely profitable tho
Admittedly I use one but grijnding a couple of weeks ago with a friend who plays midstakes tournies (~$100bi) who is a solid reg, turns out he doesn't use a HUD and never has - doesn't stop him being insanely profitable tho
T
truerehan
Rising Star
Bronze Level
i read most of this thread, seems like there would be an advantage using a HUD, can anyone tell me the name of a free one i could download (i play on fulltilt and partypoker)
JOEBOB69
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
^ here
Poker tracker3
http://www.pokertracker.com/
HEM but there coming out with HEM2 so if you like this an want to buy it,wait and get HEM2
http://www.holdemmanager.com/
LOL i doubt you play on FTP
Poker tracker3
http://www.pokertracker.com/
HEM but there coming out with HEM2 so if you like this an want to buy it,wait and get HEM2
http://www.holdemmanager.com/
LOL i doubt you play on FTP
natsgrampy
Legend
Loyaler
I like to use the HUD to look over my hand histories of the games I have played earlier that day. It is so convenient to have so much information available to be analyzed. This helps to prevent making the same mistakes in the next game.
I am basically a MTT player and don't get a chance to play as many games as I would like. The HUD is useful in the CC games because in these there is a history built up about opponents. In most other touneys, I don't have enough history / stats to truly help. I don't think anyone who is using a HUD at the same table as me gains too much of an advantage because they have the same amount of history /stats on me.
That being said, if you know that someone is using this against you, why wouldn't you want to even the playing field? Going back to the earlier hockey analogy, If the opposing goalie has 24 inch pads, why wouldn't you use the same size pads?
I am basically a MTT player and don't get a chance to play as many games as I would like. The HUD is useful in the CC games because in these there is a history built up about opponents. In most other touneys, I don't have enough history / stats to truly help. I don't think anyone who is using a HUD at the same table as me gains too much of an advantage because they have the same amount of history /stats on me.
That being said, if you know that someone is using this against you, why wouldn't you want to even the playing field? Going back to the earlier hockey analogy, If the opposing goalie has 24 inch pads, why wouldn't you use the same size pads?
Shwiggler
Rock Star
Silver Level
A HUD is an excellent tool and well worth the money you invest in it. Of course some people (though they are a small minority) are profitable without one, but I firmly believe that even they would do themselves a favor by using one. Poker is a game of making decisions based on limited information. Giving yourself an edge by gathering more info, is definitely +EV.
W
wescook1234
Rising Star
Bronze Level
LombardiStix
Rock Star
Silver Level
Honestly HUD's are counter to the spirit of the "poker game" I fell in love with. I don't use them now. If I ever tried to make the switch to playing for $ regularly I would probably feel the need to convert. Opponent analysis is crucial for making decisions about bet size and how often your villain is bs'n etc.
I think it obviously gives those who have it a clear advantage over those who don't. You could make the ethical claim that it is akin to HGH in baseball. When it wasn't tested for, did it make it wrong? Ethics aren't based on the written rules an institution has at any given moment. Again, this argument wont do much good, because we've seen throughout history it takes more than an ethical argument to stop people from getting an edge over one another. I understand both sides. Even though my loyalty lies on the old school.
I think it obviously gives those who have it a clear advantage over those who don't. You could make the ethical claim that it is akin to HGH in baseball. When it wasn't tested for, did it make it wrong? Ethics aren't based on the written rules an institution has at any given moment. Again, this argument wont do much good, because we've seen throughout history it takes more than an ethical argument to stop people from getting an edge over one another. I understand both sides. Even though my loyalty lies on the old school.