Playing with out a HUD

[OzExorcist]

I always play without hud because i don't like it, but what i hear from pros its pretty much a must these days on the medium/ high stakes if you are multi tabling..

Certainly in the medium stakes it's the norm for multitablers. I've read a few pieces from high stakes / nosebleed regs (definitely Dwan, pretty sure Galfond and others too) saying that they don't really use HUDs at those stakes because there's a limited player pool, they generally know their opponent's games pretty well and it's really more about out-levelling their opponents as opposed to just playing to their stats on a HUD.

I know I've heard interviews where Daniel Negreanu says he does use one but I think particularly among the old-school live pros that he'd be an odd one out. AFAIK Ivey has never used one, pretty sure Dwan claims he never has either and I'd be very surprised if Patrik / Gus / Lindgren / Greenstein / etc use them either. Again though, nosebleeds is a very different beast to the lower stakes.

 

[Pascal-lf]

It depends what you play.

If you play high stakes cash/high stakes tournaments, you are likely to run into the same players over and over again. In which case, reads are far more important than stats.

Stats are useful when multitabling to be able to quickly place different types of players into different categories. E.g. you might only have 20 hands on someone but if they are 60/0/1.0 then it's pretty easy to see how to play against them. Whereas if you were 12 tabling you probably won't have time to watch every hand and notice that he's limp/folding a ton.

 

[arahel_jazz]

I honestly dont understand why people think they dont need a HUD.

Poker is a competitive activity so you should be looking for every advantage possible.

I dont know if modern trainers make you run faster but I have never seen anyone take the risk and turn up to a race wearing 1950s running shoes.

Times change, modern players use HUDs.

Sorry. I don't share your opinion. HUDs are the equivalent of stealing signs in baseball or video taping the opposing coaches. Yes it may give you more info to make a decision. However, all I have seen ITT is people justifying bad decisions based on VPIP.


Go play live and see how well that HUD works for ya. Use your frickin brain for once and learn to read players and remember their patterns.

If you are 8+ tabling... even with a HUD you are just playing a video game.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

Sorry. I don't share your opinion. HUDs are the equivalent of stealing signs in baseball or video taping the opposing coaches. Yes it may give you more info to make a decision. However, all I have seen ITT is people justifying bad decisions based on VPIP.


Go play live and see how well that HUD works for ya. Use your frickin brain for once and learn to read players and remember their patterns.

If you are 8+ tabling... even with a HUD you are just playing a video game.

If everyone is "stealing signs" or "video taping the opposing coaches" and your the only one not doing it too, then you are the guy who cant see the wood for the trees. This is especially true when there is no rule preventing you form "stealing signs" or "video taping the opposing coaches".

 

[Pascal-lf]

Sorry. I don't share your opinion. HUDs are the equivalent of stealing signs in baseball or video taping the opposing coaches. Yes it may give you more info to make a decision. However, all I have seen ITT is people justifying bad decisions based on VPIP.


Go play live and see how well that HUD works for ya. Use your frickin brain for once and learn to read players and remember their patterns.

If you are 8+ tabling... even with a HUD you are just playing a video game.

Haha you sir are a grade A hater.

I don't know much about baseball but is what you talking about against the rules?

Justifying bad decisions? Want me to point you to tons of midstakes regs who crush and use a HUD? Do they all make bad decisions? Or do you just not use a HUD because you're scared of change and have no idea what you would do with it. Ooooh scary numbers!

No offence but I looked at what you play (FTP + Stars) and if that's what stakes you play I'm not sure you are in any position to tell other people that they are making "bad decisions" based on VPIP or anything else.

As for live, I play live twice a week in the local casino, and I don't struggle without a HUD. It's one table playing 20 hands an hour if you're lucky, it's barely even poker.

And I don't even understand the last sentence. That sentence makes as much sense as a chocolate teapot

 

[SYWTWAF]

I use a HUD for NL cash games. That is not an edge I would want to give up. There are too many parameters I could never keep track of in my head that go into my decision making.

I don't use a HUD for STT super turbos. They would require a special sort of HUD, as game flow is more important in them than fixed values. Constants such as "PFR %" or "CO Steal %" aren't meaningful if considered independently of players' stack sizes, the stage of the game, the number of players left in the tournament, etc. and AFAIK I can't create a HUD around those factors. So I rely on my own notes and observations (and of course general strategic knowledge of the game itself) instead. However, outside of the game, I'll occasionally go through my database and try to more closely dissect some of the players I've built ample history with.

 

[Sven Deuceman]

man do i ever want some chocolate tea now...?

huds are just another tool to help you along. if you are a 4+ table grinder they become more useful. so long as it doesn't become a crutch that you have to rely on in order to play. at which point you aren't a poker player just an online grinder. no biggie. i don't use one now but i have stopped grinding so that makes sense. they can never replace the innate intution or skill you have only help you come to a decision. i'm kinda against them from a purist sense. but i would never fault someone using one if they feel it needed.

 

[chuG]

. so long as it doesn't become a crutch that you have to rely on in order to play. .

Main reason I dont want to use one, worried id get so used to it I couldnt put it down.

I learnt my lesson with cigarettes.

 

[JohnBoyWWFC]

I'm not sure why people are trying to convince non-HUDers to use one. Message to all those that aren't using a HUD, please feel free to continue doing so. Don't let Pascal and Stu Et al tell you what to do and how to play. They may not like it, but let me tell you... You're ALWAYS welcome at my table.

 

[TylerN]

I'm not sure why people are trying to convince non-HUDers to use one. Message to all those that aren't using a HUD, please feel free to continue doing so. Don't let Pascal and Stu Et al tell you what to do and how to play. They may not like it, but let me tell you... You're ALWAYS welcome at my table.

+1

 

[arahel_jazz]

No offence but I looked at what you play (FTP + Stars) and if that's what stakes you play I'm not sure you are in any position to tell other people that they are making "bad decisions" based on VPIP or anything else.

No offense taken. I chose to play those stakes because I refused to deposit given the situation in the U.S. post UIEGA. I don't play poker for a living. Never will. I also don't throw money into something that I knew (at some point) would be trashed by the authorities.

"Competitive advantage" as it is used in the context of HUD and datamining of hand histories, should be banned in my opinion. Am I a hater? No. Some people need help to excel at what they do. Others are born with a natural ability (and before you flame me - no - that's not me either). Technology has been used in sports to gain a competitive advantage, but it is only until the other country (or team) puts enough money together to have the same technology. I, for one, never chose to spend the money on the "technology" and still was able to play the game reasonably competitively. Sure, it looks bad on sharkscope, but remember, none of it was my investment. How did I play real money for so long without depositing?

What I'm trying to say about HUDs is that they are a tool that a good player shouldn't have to use to be successful. Also, without the availability of that technology to ALL players, it becomes an unfair competitive advantage and ruins the spirit of true competition. Kinda like the Chinese dumping cheap products on the market and running good companies out of business... but I digress.

The "video game" comment was that when you are playing 4, 6, 8, 20 tables with HUDs, you are not playing the other player, you are evaluating a mathematical probability that that player is going to act exactly like the statistics say they will. At that point, the game of poker ceases to be a game of skill, it becomes a numbers game to get you to the end of the level (or hand). Have fun. BTW - you won't see me at your tables on-line anyway.

As to the Chocolate teapot... I prefer coffee with my chocolate, thank you.

 

[Pascal-lf]

The field is fair though. If a HUD was thousands of dollars I'd agree with you, but you can get HEM for just $60. PT3 provides a lengthy trial (45 days I believe), where you can use the benefits of the HUD to earn profit and thus buy PT3. Plus players who play micros don't tend to buy HUDs because they don't need one as much as they naturally have a larger edge due to the worst players starting at lowest stakes, and if you play $5 or $10 tournaments or 10NL cash $60 isn't that large of a part of your bankroll.

If you want to use an analogy, I'd shy away from your one. I won't suggest one myself because they all have problems - the spirit of true competition though, really? I take it every time you go on a table you provide a link to https://www.cardschat.com along with a page of notes on all the doctrines you know, reads on other players, etc? Thought not. If you play Sunday league football, would you say that it's unfair for a guy to have better boots than you because he can afford them and demand he replaces them with a grubby pair of trainers?

Are you honestly telling me there isn't any skill in playing 15 tables with a HUD? Haha, sorry, that's rubbish. A HUD is merely a part of a toolkit, so to speak. While it may help with things such hand reading, the very art of hand reading is not something which a HUD magically provides. Understanding player lines is something which only comes with experience and playing lots of games and picking up things like typical bet sizing tells, which can be refined further to specific bet sizing tells. When you play many tables, you do it in order to reduce variance and reach deeper situations in tournaments more regularly. Typically when I come to finish a session, I may have 2 or 3 large field tournaments I'm deep in. These situations are where you can use your refined reads and skills - instead of relying on reads from 'standard' betting lines, where you put a player on a bluff because he has bet big and he's a loose aggressive player, you can start building specific reads, gather bet sizing tells, etc.

 

[Pothole]

FWIW, Hud = cheat, if it isn't,, explain why.

 

[Pascal-lf]

FWIW, Hud = cheat, if it isn't,, explain why.

Think you should move the starting line to the other end...

Cheating:
1. Act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, esp. in a game or examination

How is it dishonest or unfair when it's allowed by all the major sites?

 

[Pothole]

Understanding player lines is something which only comes with experience and playing lots of games and picking up things like typical bet sizing tells,

So do it without a HUD playing 15 tables. patishhhh

 

[Pothole]

Think you should move the starting line to the other end...

Cheating:
1. Act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, esp. in a game or examination

How is it dishonest or unfair when it's allowed by all the major sites?

1/ you have a HuD, I don't, ,,,,that's an advantage.
2/ all "major" sites allowed US players till awhile ago.

 

[Pascal-lf]

Lol sorry but I can't reply to your posts if they don't make sense. What does part 2 have to do with anything, seeing as it is not illegal to play poker online in the US?

I'm not saying I don't have an advantage, I'm saying I don't have an unfair or dishonest advantage...

And sure I could identify player betting lines while playing 15 tables. However, the HUD allows me to refine these ranges based on statistics, so I'll keep using it thanks. Also it saves me having to take notes on everyone like "loose" or "tight passive" because it effectively takes those notes for me.

 

[Pothole]

Just playin devils advocate, you do have an unfair advantage ( as some players can't afford to pay for a HUD ) ( not me btw, I just lost all interest ). As you base your bets on statistical probability, let me explain you foible. Statistically speaking, 34% of road deaths are caused by drunk drivers, that means 66% were sober,,,,,,= drive drunk. Kiddin here, NEVER drink and DRIVE. Torquay or Brixham?

 

[Pothole]

Also it saves me having to take notes on everyone like "loose" or "tight passive" because it effectively takes those notes for me.

Aha, your just lazy,,,,,lol

 

[Pascal-lf]

Fair play And surely everyone bases bets on statistical probability? If someone offered you a bet where 8/10 out of ten you won you £10, and 2/10 you lost £10, would you not keep betting for as long as you could until they realised?

Try playing 20 tables for 8 hours and then tell me I'm lazy, and if you can do that try playing 20 tables for 8 hours while taking notes on every player on every one of your tables without compromising your game

 

[Worak]

As I started playing I opted not to invest 1$ into poker but to learn it from level 0 on.

It took me about a year to be able to get more or less solid reads without using a HUD and show a small profit.

For me personally it was probably better to learn the basics without a HUD - things I still use apart from the stats HEM presents like betting patterns and the like.

After that first year I used some of my profits to get a HUD and I love having one - yet it hasn't cataputed me to the nosebleeds by any means.

What it has done is giving me the possibility to review my play and find leaks that I wouldn't have figured out without one.

Looking at the unfair advantage argument - well poker always is a game of limited information and always will be - a HUD merely gives you info that you could possibly pick up taking written notes - albeit very slowly.

Can't afford 60$ to invest in getting better but possibly leak money for ever ?

Doesn't sound like a +EV decision.

 

[JohnBoyWWFC]

TBF, though I use one now my biggest win came without a HUD. But I was one tabling. Guess that kinda shows that good players are good whatever but frankly it's impossible to know what's going on at every table when your multi tabling, end of.

 

[SYWTWAF]

The "video game" comment was that when you are playing 4, 6, 8, 20 tables with HUDs, you are not playing the other player, you are evaluating a mathematical probability that that player is going to act exactly like the statistics say they will. At that point, the game of poker ceases to be a game of skill, it becomes a numbers game to get you to the end of the level (or hand). Have fun. BTW - you won't see me at your tables on-line anyway.

This is an interesting claim. I think being able to make sense of these numbers is precisely (or at least to a large extent) where the skill in poker lies. I'm not sure what you mean by at the point that you start evaluating mathematical probabilities, you are no longer "playing the player". As I see it, the probabilities are the player--the player defined to an exacting degree in terms of their actions related to poker playing.

 

[RVladimiro]

I think that pro-hud and anti-hud will have to agree they disagree. I don't like the idea of players playing stats based, like "I have no hand but I'll check what's his % of Fvs4bet" if that's the only thing in your arsenal to play the game.

I use a HUD, glad I do, I can make immediate assumptions on the table if I played it long enough to have some data, etc... but having nothing more than a scritp to follow and actions based on %... hmmmm... I can't see that as poker.

Ideally, HEM and PT3 and others should get data so we can review, strip the players names and only give session stats. That's how far I think it would be fair for the best poker players to prevail. There are players that assume they can't play without a HUD. I can't see how that is even remotely close to actual poker.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

FWIW, Hud = cheat, if it isn't,, explain why.

In order to cheat you have to violate the rules.

The rules are set individually by each pokersite (much in the same way as the rules of live poker are set by each individual casino).

If a site dosent specifically have a rule preventing the use of a HUD then no rule has been violated.

If no rule has been violated then cheating has not taken place.

Simple enough?