Is Phil Hellmuth an under-rated player?

Shells

Shells

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Dec 18, 2010
Total posts
15,842
Awards
14
GGthiagoXD

GGthiagoXD

Rock Star
Joined
Jul 25, 2020
Total posts
125
The biggest bracelet winner in poker history a brilliant mind indeed! Debi I believe he has action but because he plays a lot he sometimes plays other players' action against themselves.

CardsChat contributor, Jon Sofen, writes an opinion piece on Phil H with stats making a good claim to Phil's poker abilities. We all know Phil for his table banter and antics, but can anyone admit Phil Hellmuth is one poker player who is under-rated?

What say you?

Stats Don’t Lie: Phil Hellmuth is Better at Heads-Up Poker than You Might Think

Shells .... lol sorry lol
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Fivefor

Fivefor

Visionary
Joined
Jul 29, 2020
Total posts
623
Awards
9
Hellmuth is one of the most recognizable poker players in the world and has 15 wsop bracelets....how can anyone say that he is underrated??

His playing style may not always be GTO but he clearly knows how to navigate large player fields filled with a wide range of skilled players and playing styles.

There's definitely lots to criticize about Phil, his ego, his playing style, his whining, his narcissist tendencies, his douche bagginess, and whatever else is easy pickings for criticism about him but his tournament results clearly speak for themselves.
 
Tracid

Tracid

Squirrel Tiger
Community Guide
Joined
May 28, 2016
Total posts
6,363
Awards
6
I think he is a little dismissed as a serious pro due to his blow ups and petulant behaviour but you can't argue against his previous records and bracelets.

He was my favourite pro when I was younger which I feel goes some way towards understanding why I had (have) to get out of the habit of whining like a little cry baby and berating other players if I didn't like how they played... Look at the role model I chose. :rolleyes:

Thankfully I know that, moving forward, I have a very different mentality to yesterday. :)
 
Shells

Shells

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Dec 18, 2010
Total posts
15,842
Awards
14
Hellmuth is one of the most recognizable poker players in the world and has 15 WSOP bracelets....how can anyone say that he is underrated??

His playing style may not always be GTO but he clearly knows how to navigate large player fields filled with a wide range of skilled players and playing styles.

There's definitely lots to criticize about Phil, his ego, his playing style, his whining, his narcissist tendencies, his douche bagginess, and whatever else is easy pickings for criticism about him but his tournament results clearly speak for themselves.

There is no doubt Phil H has a big ego. In fact, I think there are MANY well known and not so well known poker players who have big egos and get a little creative with their verbage at a poker table etc. One of the biggest differences is, Phil H has given us more entertainment (and won a lot of WSOP bracelets) than most and it has lasted for years! even decades!

Edit: I personally like Phil H with and without all the antics. Does anyone think he has mellowed over the years?
 
acidburnfx

acidburnfx

Senior apprentice
Loyaler
Joined
May 18, 2013
Total posts
3,940
Awards
15
BR
What to say after you see that Hellmuth won 15 times in WSOP events, that is, more than anyone else in history? No words!
 
Shakes

Shakes

Visionary
Joined
Jun 10, 2008
Total posts
511
The thing with Phil is though is that 13 of 15 bracelets are in Holdem and 2 in Razz. So is he underrated? I do not think so.

He is entertaining to watch that's for sure and its great to see personalities like that especially in the times we live in. I almost think he is Terrell Owens (TO) so to speak in the way he handles himself when the camera is on.

Whether you love him or hate him, he is good to for the game and that is all I really care about.
 
1

1nsomn1a

Visionary
Joined
May 24, 2020
Total posts
767
You may not like him for his peculiar behavior and strange actions and words, but does this have anything to do with his poker abilities?

You may not respect Phil's personality, but Phil the player only deserves positive conversations.:)
 
Poker Orifice

Poker Orifice

Legend
Joined
Jan 19, 2008
Total posts
22,523
Awards
6
Under-rated? According to who? Phil himself maybe, lol.
 
Severo junior

Severo junior

Enthusiast
Joined
Mar 28, 2017
Total posts
45
Phil Hellmuth

despite his temper, he plays too much
 
ADRI7HO

ADRI7HO

On the road...
Loyaler
Joined
May 6, 2020
Total posts
4,141
Awards
2
I don’t know if he is an underrated player but for sure, you can’t accidentally win 15 WSOP bracelets.
I think he's a very good player for sure. (Regardless of whether you sympathize or not what you do at the table sometimes.)
 
57noona

57noona

Legend
Joined
Jan 16, 2017
Total posts
1,832
Awards
2
US
I don't like how he acts sometimes, but the man can play poker and is my Favorite player. Like it is said over and over his stats don't lie, he is one of the greatest players in poker. Covid 19 just might have cost him his 16th bracelet.
 
ASMautoneJr

ASMautoneJr

Visionary
Joined
Dec 1, 2017
Total posts
534
Awards
1
this is for people who say that poker is just luck, you also have to have the necessary talent to stand out ...
 
BillyR23

BillyR23

Legend
Joined
Sep 8, 2013
Total posts
1,097
Awards
2
Because of his personality he's not the most likable person but we shouldn't take this too much into consideration when we're talking about his poker skills- this guy is just a monster and I respect guys like him the most because despite the fact he won pretty much everything and he can just 'retire', he continues to try to improve his game (not only nlhe but other mixed games too) and is a constant presence at the poker tables, trying to make the game he loves more popular(his books are also pretty good too) ... well done Poker Brat :)
 
H

Hanosch

Rock Star
Joined
Aug 3, 2020
Total posts
216
Under-rated? According to who? Phil himself maybe, lol.


I was kind of feeling the same. Who would underrate someone with that Bracelets and winnings. Who is even in the position to do that? And why would he care.
I think in the end 99,9% of people who were ever dealt cards to would love to change positions with him.
You dont have to like him though. Yeah, he is rude sometimes. Yes he puts up to much show. He is entertaining that way though. And even if you wouldnt respect his personality you definitly must respect his game.
 
antonis32123

antonis32123

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Dec 25, 2014
Total posts
5,122
Awards
19
Many players say a lot for Hellmouth , his personality , his emotional verbal outbursts when he loses , especially to bad beats or bad players . But questioning his abilities to win muyst be out of the question . he might be not the top player in the money list , as some GTO players , but he is still one of the best , maybe the best , with his very good player's instict
 
Shumkoolie

Shumkoolie

Legend
Joined
Jan 5, 2010
Total posts
1,209
Awards
1
I find Daniel's criticism interesting given his own biggest hole, which would be way more costly in a heads-up match.

His ability to put his opponents on a hand, be correct, and STILL pay them off. He admitted himself that he can be a calling station. Doug Polk will exploit that specific weakness if Daniel can't fix it and will beat him their own heads-up match. But, at the same token, Daniel's not stupid, he'll figure out a way to fix that leak because he knows Doug's specialty is HUNL.

But, Hellmuth underrated? I think so, because forget his ability to navigate through large field tournaments, because that's not the question - it's that his heads-up game is never discussed, and to win 15 bracelets plus numerous other tournaments, you HAVE to be good at heads-up poker to win. Sure, you have to be lucky too, but Phil's results speak for themselves.
 

Attachments

  • DNegs-Criticism.JPG
    DNegs-Criticism.JPG
    37.2 KB · Views: 86
Phoenix Wright

Phoenix Wright

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Feb 18, 2020
Total posts
2,593
Awards
4
As others have said, "under-rated" is a stretch when you are already regarded as one of the best (if not the best) poker player around. Perhaps a better way of phrasing this would be something like: "Phil Hellmuth is one of the pro players of this era not given enough credit for certain elements of their poker game."

Playing GTO poker and more ABC styles always seems to make you more predictable - perhaps this is one reason Hellmuth ignored "holes in his game" - there is little need to fix a weakness if it isn't being exploited. Let us say you are playing a poker game with a bunch of nitty fish - wouldn't it make sense to naturally loosen up and raise more? Less need for "balance" and "GTO" if you are not being exploited for it. Could be the same situation here. Hellmuth "gets away" with these "holes" (I'm sure he is well aware of what those "holes" are) because his opponents' are not exploiting them enough; once they begin to do so, he can simply shift gears and adapt.

Lots of pro players do this - Hellmuth is not special in this sense. However, I am not 100% sure why Hellmuth is seen as "under-rated" when others aren't to the same degree.

Maybe it is subconscious evaluation from Hellmuth's many YouTube blowups and lost hands rather than his recent results and victories. Perhaps it implants the subconscious idea that Hellmuth loses more than he actually does and is therefore seen as "under-rated" when you view his stats and career bracelets.
 
youri

youri

Rock Star
Joined
Sep 8, 2019
Total posts
222
He's a great tournament player, maybe the best ever.. got all the experience and he seems to be relying on it much more than being game theory optimal. Plus he's been winning consistently for more than three decades. Massive respect to him.

If he was more humble people would love him more I guess.
 
L

LotharMcDowner

Rock Star
Joined
Mar 12, 2008
Total posts
229
Phil doesn't get love because he's a jerk at the table. Everyone knows he's one of the greatest ever to play the game, and they'd probably say it more if he didn't constantly remind everyone of that very thing.
 
M

Mahdi

Rock Star
Joined
Jul 7, 2020
Total posts
412
underrated, not overrated? are you sure people define those words properly? :D
 
BigCountryAA

BigCountryAA

Visionary
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Total posts
762
Not sure he's underrated. He's won too many bracelets to slide under anyone's radar. I miss the days of poker after dark. I really enjoyed the conversations during those games and all of the great players Phil H included..
 
Top