Ontario online poker may have a new look on April 4, 2022? (including updates)

[CRStals]

Fair enough, we all understand how some players are going to face restrictions and a drop in income if they decide to remain in Ontario. Everyone here has expressed concern.

The larger point I would pose is ring fencing is likely to become ubiquitous, the norm rather than the exception in future years. And I am not sure how anyone playing professionally is not anticipating the possibility.

Hundreds of millions (literally) have already faced losing poker and hundreds of millions (literally) have been ring fenced. That is simply stating reality.

Lex Veldhuis just relocated to Belgium from the Netherlands in the last few months as PokerStars (as all operators) have been forced to comply with new government protocols. Whether or not he can return to play at his home base remains to be seen. However, Ontarians are not the only parties facing such difficulties.

No quite right and maybe we have been lucky to have gone this long before regulation.

But...as I mentioned before the problem here is compounded by a lack of support and infrastructure for live poker. In theory if a player played professionally online could they transition to live and they could if there were enough tables to tap into. But there just isn't. Niagara is the only place with two established rooms within a 30 min drive of each other and only Fallsview has ever shown interest in big time MTT poker with the WPT.

Poker is overshadowed here by sportsbetting as it is everywhere but unlike most other places in the world without a vibrant live poker game it is going to force pros at that level out, stemming the growth if there is a ceiling to which one can play.

What I am now interested to know is what is traffic like on ringed in sites like pokerstars USA? Do they offer all of the same variety as the global site and how reduced are tournaments?

 

[DS3]

No quite right and maybe we have been lucky to have gone this long before regulation.

But...as I mentioned before the problem here is compounded by a lack of support and infrastructure for live poker. In theory if a player played professionally online could they transition to live and they could if there were enough tables to tap into. But there just isn't. Niagara is the only place with two established rooms within a 30 min drive of each other and only Fallsview has ever shown interest in big time MTT poker with the WPT.

Poker is overshadowed here by sportsbetting as it is everywhere but unlike most other places in the world without a vibrant live poker game it is going to force pros at that level out, stemming the growth if there is a ceiling to which one can play.

What I am now interested to know is what is traffic like on ringed in sites like PokerStars USA? Do they offer all of the same variety as the global site and how reduced are tournaments?

However, wouldn't poker live venues be driven by the market and actual demand? Or are other forces inhibiting the development (such as a cultural resistance meaning it is hard to obtain licenses to establish gambling venues)?

As for Sports Betting in general, it is something that fails to interest me entirely and as I stated do not understand how individual US states have allowed sports betting in recent years but not online poker.

Regarding the ring-fenced US states. I am not aware the likes of PokerStars releases any specific information but as I noted above both NJ and Pennsylvania have increased their Winter Series year on year. This year Pennsylvania held 44 events and NJ and Michigan 42 with guarantees of 2 million. Obviously, this does not compare to playing in a global market...but has there been any talk of the possibility for the ring-fenced markets to combine across the border or is that completely off the cards?

Here's something pertinent if you are so inclined. It is a poker news podcast with Darren Elias who worked with MGM/party poker to launch their End Boss series which ran in NJ, Pennsylvania and then Michigan back in November 2021.

One of the interesting points touched on is a generation of NJ players springing up and succeeding (NJ relaunched online poker the earliest) and now migrating to the live game out of their success online. Another interesting point is it appears they are lobbying to combine pools.

It might not be the perfect situation but those involved in ring-fenced limitations might have to face playing x amount on line and then travel to participate in live events if they want to stay home based.

Here is the Darren Elias with the End Boss series clip. Chad Holloway's conversation with him starts at minute 26.35

https://www.podbean.com/media/share..._share_ep&utm_medium=dlink&utm_source=w_share

 

[CRStals]

However, wouldn't poker live venues be driven by the market and actual demand? Or are other forces inhibiting the development (such as a cultural resistance meaning it is hard to obtain licenses to establish gambling venues)?

As for Sports Betting in general, it is something that fails to interest me entirely and as I stated do not understand how individual US states have allowed sports betting in recent years but not online poker.

Regarding the ring-fenced US states. I am not aware the likes of PokerStars releases any specific information but as I noted above both NJ and Pennsylvania have increased their Winter Series year on year. This year Pennsylvania held 44 events and NJ and Michigan 42 with guarantees of 2 million. Obviously, this does not compare to playing in a global market...but has there been any talk of the possibility for the ring-fenced markets to combine across the border or is that completely off the cards?

Here's something pertinent if you are so inclined. It is a Poker News podcast with Darren Elias who worked with MGM/Party Poker to launch their End Boss series which ran in NJ, Pennsylvania and then Michigan back in November 2021.

One of the interesting points touched on is a generation of NJ players springing up and succeeding (NJ relaunched online poker the earliest) and now migrating to the live game out of their success online. Another interesting point is it appears they are lobbying to combine pools.

It might not be the perfect situation but those involved in ring-fenced limitations might have to face playing x amount on line and then travel to participate in live events if they want to stay home based.

Here is the Darren Elias with the End Boss series clip. Chad Holloway's conversation with him starts at minute 26.35

https://www.podbean.com/media/share..._share_ep&utm_medium=dlink&utm_source=w_share

It's a solid question - basically live poker in Ontario is restricted on a number of fronts:

- The OLG split up the operation of the casinos outside the commercial ones to operators in zones and the majority of those operators favour table games and slots over poker as it brings in more GGR

- Most of the casinos in Ontario are just not big enough to justify having poker. The biggest casino in Ontario - Fallsview - no longer spreads poker. From what I can see these do:
Casino Niagara - 26 tables starting at $1/$2
Caesars Windsor - 14 tables starting at $3/$6
Casino Rama - 6 tables
Great Blue Heron - 10 tables starting at $1/$2
Casino Brantford - 14 tables

In comparison, Playground Poker just outside Montreal might have more tables in the building (both cash & tournament) than all 5 casinos in Ontario - and poker is also spread at other poker rooms & Casino Montreal. The need for profit is there and in Ontario that just isn't seen as coming from poker.

The frustrating thing for me is the sheer lack of information around the changes when it comes to poker. You can't see it anywhere when you look up the law and what it says regarding poker which is leading to a lot of confusion. I do think it can work but it depends on who ultimately operates within the province. If it's Stars - it could. If it's the OLG - not a chance.

 

[Ron112355]

I think it's time to withdraw my funds and stick to the CC leagues for my online games. All together spread across 6 or 7 sites have approx. $800 and don't want it to get stuck in limbo like Black Friday.

Been playing way too much anyway and health and weather permitting plan to spend my summer outdoors enjoying nature.


For real money games will go back to my favorite private club, they are opening back up soon and the games are always fun with reasonable buy ins and rake that pays for dealers and refreshments. And as a bonus they are close to home so not too much travel time..

 

[CRStals]

I think it's time to withdraw my funds and stick to the CC leagues for my online games. All together spread across 6 or 7 sites have approx. $800 and don't want it to get stuck in limbo like Black Friday.

Been playing way too much anyway and health and weather permitting plan to spend my summer outdoors enjoying nature.


For real money games will go back to my favorite private club, they are opening back up soon and the games are always fun with reasonable buy ins and rake that pays for dealers and refreshments. And as a bonus they are close to home so not too much travel time..

I'm seriously considering pulling out most of my money now in advance of any rush, just to be safe. Barring any sudden asthma minuge change from this government which never happens..........getting out now would be better than closer to April 4th.

 

[Poker Orifice]

I was under the impression this was serious issue meriting a serious conversation.

Apparently not.

I thought you'd be able to understand after the comparisons I made for you. I guess it wasn't clear enough.

The amount of volume of games will be minimal. Hint: people who play poker profitably.. play LARGE VOLUME! (I am talking about 200+ Sng's/day for sng players... hint: you NEED to play that many to get onto the Leaderboards which enables one to actually earn money due to increased rakeback amounts... without it, there are very fee players making enough money from those games).
MTT players micro, Low, Mid-stakes players typically play 50-60mtt's/day
How can you even remotely do that on a site where you'll be lucky to see maybe 4 or 5 games within your buyin range in an entire day... not to mention the start times will be spaced 2 to 3 hours apart.
I play cash tables and typically am playing 1,200+hands/hr. when playing (to make it worthwhile and even then I'd make as much flipping burgers but with poker I can do it in my own home... I can caretake my sick partner at home and play poker at the same time).

The province I am in already has it's own site and has had it for a dozen years. More recently they joined up with another province (that has small population) and currently I only know of 1 person who plays on it. ONE! And I actually only found out about that a week ago. (they add in 2 games from there to their schedule... a schedule that has ~40games in it) If the rest were to shut down would they get busy... I doubt it... they won't have the player pool.
Also, as far as Live casino poker goes, in B.C. they have completely died out for years now. Live poker boom here died 10yrs. ago. Back pre 2010 there was poker everywhere here. Now... nowhere. Alberta is much better but for bigger tournaments they get players coming from 10+hrs. away (it's a 7 hr. drive for me... not really worth it to go play a game or two... not even worth it for a tournament... unless it's a series & then even then you're paying a ton in gas, food, & lodging. Might as well wait & go to Vegas instead.).

There's my longer version. I thought the short one summed it up much better.

 

[DS3]

I thought you'd be able to understand after the comparisons I made for you. I guess it wasn't clear enough.

The amount of volume of games will be minimal. Hint: people who play poker profitably.. play LARGE VOLUME! (I am talking about 200+ Sng's/day for sng players... hint: you NEED to play that many to get onto the Leaderboards which enables one to actually earn money due to increased rakeback amounts... without it, there are very fee players making enough money from those games).
MTT players micro, Low, Mid-stakes players typically play 50-60mtt's/day
How can you even remotely do that on a site where you'll be lucky to see maybe 4 or 5 games within your buyin range in an entire day... not to mention the start times will be spaced 2 to 3 hours apart.
I play cash tables and typically am playing 1,200+hands/hr. when playing (to make it worthwhile and even then I'd make as much flipping burgers but with poker I can do it in my own home... I can caretake my sick partner at home and play poker at the same time).

The province I am in already has it's own site and has had it for a dozen years. More recently they joined up with another province (that has small population) and currently I only know of 1 person who plays on it. ONE! And I actually only found out about that a week ago. (they add in 2 games from there to their schedule... a schedule that has ~40games in it) If the rest were to shut down would they get busy... I doubt it... they won't have the player pool.
Also, as far as Live casino poker goes, in B.C. they have completely died out for years now. Live poker boom here died 10yrs. ago. Back pre 2010 there was poker everywhere here. Now... nowhere. Alberta is much better but for bigger tournaments they get players coming from 10+hrs. away (it's a 7 hr. drive for me... not really worth it to go play a game or two... not even worth it for a tournament... unless it's a series & then even then you're paying a ton in gas, food, & lodging. Might as well wait & go to Vegas instead.).

There's my longer version. I thought the short one summed it up much better.

Funny, I thought I'd made my point clear also.

The world is full of people who have faced adversary to play poker in one form or another. What they tended to do was pull up their big boy poker pants and deal with reality. I have not even bothered to underline Black Friday and the subsequent fall out.

Let's note what countless pros have done over the last decade or so,.

What do Fedor Holz (and nearly all the top German professionals) do to play online? Move to austria. What do the likes of Adrian Mateos (and literally hundreds of other European pros) do but move to London.

Where do Fintan Hand and David Lappin play (along with numerous other pros) - they moved to Malta.

What do the likes of Stephen Chidwick do but live out of a suitcase (for years) to ply his trade as does Jamie Staples.

I do have sympathy for those who face a dramatic change on regarding their living but the world is full of -once again, literally- hundreds of millions who have already faced such difficulties and made the lifestyle choices needed to proceed with poker (or not).

If you could, please explain what makes Ontarians, exceptionally deserving or 'other' than the tens of thousands who chose to relocate to play?

 

[SopianaeExtra]

'Let them slurp maple syrup!'

 

[Minakshi]

This is really bad news and disheartening. Poker was my fav go to after work

 

[Poker Orifice]

Funny, I thought I'd made my point clear also.

The world is full of people who have faced adversary to play poker in one form or another. What they tended to do was pull up their big boy poker pants and deal with reality. I have not even bothered to underline Black Friday and the subsequent fall out.

Let's note what countless pros have done over the last decade or so,.

What do Fedor Holz (and nearly all the top German professionals) do to play online? Move to Austria. What do the likes of Adrian Mateos (and literally hundreds of other European pros) do but move to London.

Where do Fintan Hand and David Lappin play (along with numerous other pros) - they moved to Malta.

What do the likes of Stephen Chidwick do but live out of a suitcase (for years) to ply his trade as does Jamie Staples.

I do have sympathy for those who face a dramatic change on regarding their living but the world is full of -once again, literally- hundreds of millions who have already faced such difficulties and made the lifestyle choices needed to proceed with poker (or not).

If you could, please explain what makes Ontarians, exceptionally deserving or 'other' than the tens of thousands who chose to relocate to play?

You're talking about a VERY small number of HIGH STAKES players. For each one there are hundreds of low stakes players.

Pretty sure Jaime Staples is born in Calgary Alberta. I'm guessing he will move somewhere (mexico perhaps?). I know he is quite stressed about the situation as are others in the same spot as him. Might be easy for him as I don't believe he's married with children.

Stevie 444 was a high stakes pro prior to 2010. He'd already made enough to easily re-locate (as had MANY others back then who were from the USA... although not that many actually moved vs. how many there were back then).

What I'm saying is... many of the ones who aren't in the upper echelon of HSMTT players will not be able to continue playing full-time because they won't be able to afford to do so.

This will be my last post in this thread.

 

[DS3]

You're talking about a VERY small number of HIGH STAKES players. For each one there are hundreds of low stakes players.

Pretty sure Jaime Staples is born in Calgary Alberta. I'm guessing he will move somewhere (Mexico perhaps?). I know he is quite stressed about the situation as are others in the same spot as him. Might be easy for him as I don't believe he's married with children.

Stevie 444 was a high stakes pro prior to 2010. He'd already made enough to easily re-locate (as had MANY others back then who were from the USA... although not that many actually moved vs. how many there were back then).

What I'm saying is... many of the ones who aren't in the upper echelon of HSMTT players will not be able to continue playing full-time because they won't be able to afford to do so.

This will be my last post in this thread.

Jamie Staples already has spent time playing in Malta and based himself in England a few times for extended periods.

I of course agree. It is naturally easier for those who have established themselves at a high stakes level to move, as it is for sponsored streamers. Naturally those without family can also upstakes with some ease.

I do have sympathy for those caught in the Ontarian buzzsaw. I simply have a bad feeling that more and more players will face this scenario.

 

[ritz_avalanche]

I am really disappointed with this regulation change .But I hope atleast ACR continues to work

 

[belizebum]

Latest article
https://usgamingreview.com/news/217166-poker-operators-eager-launch-ontario-canada/

 

[CRStals]

Latest article
https://usgamingreview.com/news/217166-poker-operators-eager-launch-ontario-canada/

This is intersting in that the article is quoting BetMGM, PokerStars and wsop are considerng entering the Ontarion market. While I had heard PokerStars was already in negotiations, I'm surprised to a point that BetMGM and WSOP would consider Ontario for poker. Sports betting - well everyone seems to want in - but poker? Considering WSOP has made it a living of NOT going into regulated markets outside the US this is surprising to me.

I'm hopeful that this will either a: be fake news or b: somehow inter-provincial or global player pools will be available if this becomes law in April.

 

[Tredford]

Contact your ... dealer

I would recommend contacting your fav poker sites and asking them what they are preparing for, especially if you have a bankroll online.


I sent emails / contacted the online help to ask at Party, Stars and GG what they are going to do.
The more players emailing them, the faster they may come out with some information for us and our accounts.
Right now they are looking into it and may send out an email in the coming weeks.
If I don't get a definitive answer from them by end of March, I will do a withdraw of my funds just in case.

While I would hate for the rest of canada to be stuck in a fenced region too, misery loves company and I'd rather have another 20M or so to build a bigger pool with Ontario.

 

[CRStals]

I would recommend contacting your fav poker sites and asking them what they are preparing for, especially if you have a bankroll online.


I sent emails / contacted the online help to ask at Party, Stars and GG what they are going to do.
The more players emailing them, the faster they may come out with some information for us and our accounts.
Right now they are looking into it and may send out an email in the coming weeks.
If I don't get a definitive answer from them by end of March, I will do a withdraw of my funds just in case.

While I would hate for the rest of Canada to be stuck in a fenced region too, misery loves company and I'd rather have another 20M or so to build a bigger pool with Ontario.

Customer support won't know anything about this for local players...while it's not a bad idea to contact them to see if they do, I highly doubt at this point that they will disclose that to a user. We're all going to have to wait for official announcements which probably won't come out until the end of March at the earliest.

Reading up more on this, it feels like most operators won't be ready to flick the switch April 4th, however once finalized it looks like the turnaround won't be long so anyone with significant funds on any site that operates within legal jurdistictions - Stars, Party, GG, 888 - you may want to look at moving funds out well in advance to be preapred. I could see wirhdraw times getting long processing a number of players all at once.

 

[Tredford]

Customer support won't know anything about this for local players...while it's not a bad idea to contact them to see if they do, I highly doubt at this point that they will disclose that to a user. We're all going to have to wait for official announcements which probably won't come out until the end of March at the earliest.

Reading up more on this, it feels like most operators won't be ready to flick the switch April 4th, however once finalized it looks like the turnaround won't be long so anyone with significant funds on any site that operates within legal jurdistictions - Stars, Party, GG, 888 - you may want to look at moving funds out well in advance to be preapred. I could see wirhdraw times getting long processing a number of players all at once.

I might do a withdraw from the sites I play on the week before, just to be sure.

I did find this FAQ:
https://pokerfuse.com/online-gaming/canada/ontario-online-poker-guide-faq-legal-igaming-canada/

1/ Private operators can start testing their systems in March (2 days from now)
2/ this timeline is very aggressive, and many of the regulations are still being written. Therefore, it seems that online gaming sites will most likely not be ready by April 4. The regulator has signaled that operators who have applied for a license can continue to operate in the market until they are ready — it wants to avoid a “blackout” period.

Hopefully that helps the rollout go smoothly.

I think with most of the big sites already operating with other fenced areas, they should be able to make another jurisdiction for Ontario without too much trouble.

It would be nice if the sites had this figured out before March 31. That way one could avoid the transfer fees from doing a withdraw and then another deposit.

Although, it might be nice to catch a few deposit bonuses they might roll out in April to get their numbers up quickly.

 

[edenman1]

Wow, this is a little scary.. Here in Nova Scotia we have gambling, and there's an online casino coming soon I heard (New Brunswick has it now). Hopefully there will be a way around any ban on International poker sites and casinos, such as 888 etc...

 

[belizebum]

Here is a petition to sign.
https://www.change.org/p/rob-ford-s...516546f0f4ee&utm_content=fht-32425356-en-ca:1

 

[Tredford]

Sounds like 888poker has been awarded a license to operate online poker in Ontario next month:
https://pokerfuse.com/news/industry/217269-888-launch-ontario-online-poker-casino-sports/

Although the idea of a fence sucks, I'm hoping these operators have some nice deposit / sign-up bonuses for our business.

 

[vaselbrassel]

what

what happened ???

 

[Shells]

what happened ???

If you are in Ontario, Canada and play online poker, you can find information all through the thread beginning with the first post.

 

[Genep66]

Lousy politicians taking more freedoms away. I am just about done with Canada as a whole. Its becoming Chinada quickly. Go Truckers !

Ontario can go to hell, as far as I'm concerned. I live there, and I will boycott poker, rather than play on their lousy sites.

Screw it.

I'm unvaxxed and they have taken away restaurants , gyms, bars, events, etc. this is just one more thing. I don't care anymore. Take it. I am ready to give up my job too, and get the hell out of this SXXXhole country. They've ruined it.

It’s an election year so Ford is starting to throw out some bones to try to get re elected. Federal government Trudeau is no better a puppet and has lost control of the country. Hang tight as more real information is coming out daily.

 

[testing826]

ok man

 

[franken222]

I'm really puzzled about this, because only the federal government has jurisdiction over ANY internet activity in Canada.

The provinces only have jurisdiction over brick and mortar sites.

The airwaves (which include the internet), are controlled by the Canadian Radio, and Telecommunications Commision.

For Ontario to get a rule change, they would have to go through the federal government to achieve that.

I'm not saying they haven't, but I have not seen, or heard anything about that.

If it does happen, so much for freedom of choice.