Ontario online poker may have a new look on April 4, 2022? (including updates)

[belizebum]

Just read this article. It's not good for those in Ontario canada.

https://www.onlinepokerreport.com/59575/grey-monday-ontario-poker/

 

[Shells]

If I read the article correctly, online poker would (or could) affect Ontarians by way of pooling only players from Ontario and not the international player pool we would have been accustomed to.

This prompted me to look up other sources to verify this latest news. Although the article linked does not state much about 'poker' itself but focuses more with online gambling, I would assume that poker would eventually be included in the changes.

Also, if I am reading it right (read it rather quickly) then Ontario will lose money by making these changes? I hope they think this through...

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-casino-revenue-government-1.6316064

 

[najisami]

I hope that poker is not concerned since only gambling is mentioned, but at the same time I'm almost sure that they are including it. I feel that the whole poker community (worldwide) should be concerned every time a state or a country shifts toward this restricting business.

 

[Shells]

Here's another article that was written on February 9, 2022.

https://www.pokerscout.com/ontario-regulations-restrict-online-poker-partypoker-pulls-out-of-russia/

 

[Poker Orifice]

Wow! This sucks! This REALLY sucks!

 

[Shells]

Wow! This sucks! This REALLY sucks!

Yep. It looks like April 4 is the target date to turn the switch.

 

[frank174]

start emailing the Premier, squeeky wheel gets the grease

 

[DS3]

I doubt much can be done.

It's a pathetic money (tax) grab, plain and simple. Anyone who ring fences - province, state or even country- will generate direct revenue and license fees on top if gambling entities want to remain in the territory.

I am sure Ontarians are frustrated as hell but it surely has to be looked at as cup half full. They can still play.

I would love to know what Ontario projects as expected revenue - I can't imagine it being a significant amount. But my guess is the government will rely on the fact the average Ontarian will have little issue with it being raised on 'gambling' and restricting those who play, unfortunately.

Sad and petty state of affairs but a least access is still available to some degree.

 

[Shells]

I doubt much can be done.

It's a pathetic money (tax) grab, plain and simple. Anyone who ring fences - province, state or even country- will generate direct revenue and license fees on top if gambling entities want to remain in the territory.

I am sure Ontarians are frustrated as hell but it surely has to be looked at as cup half full. They can still play.

I would love to know what Ontario projects as expected revenue - I can't imagine it being a significant amount. But my guess is the government will rely on the fact the average Ontarian will have little issue with it being raised on 'gambling' and restricting those who play, unfortunately.

Sad and petty state of affairs but a least access is still available to some degree.

It is a bit frustrating but yes, we will still have some poker available to us.

Just recently (pretty much since the Olympics began) I would say that about 25% (seems more like 50%) of the commercial ads I am seeing after 6 p.m. ET, given this is probably primetime viewing, there has been what I think is a ridiculous number of 'BetRivers' sports betting platform advertising. One thing they have included in the graphics is that the platform is not available yet but coming soon to Ontario. So, we are now aware of the sports betting platforms working their way into the province but I'm still unsure just how much poker is affected. The Online Poker Report are the only one who has stated that online poker will be played with players only in Ontario - other articles have not stated this...yet. Time will tell how everything will work out but you are right! We still have online poker.

One of the articles I linked up there, indicated that there could be a loss of revenue over the course of 5 years. However, I'm unsure what the formula is to get to that loss. But, since the 'task force' has been digging deep into the regulation of gaming, gambling, sports betting, poker sites, since the closure of brick and mortar casinos during COVID19, one would think they would keep in mind just how much can be gained, rather than lost.

So in the end, we will most likely have poker available to play online even though it won't be what we were used to.

 

[SopianaeExtra]

Another typical case of attempting to solve a problem the government itself has imposed. Can't they just treat adults according to their age instead of hovering over them like a nasty, fun-hating stepmother?

 

[Poker Orifice]

I am sure Ontarians are frustrated as hell but it surely has to be looked at as cup half full. They can still play.

Really?

Just about every single player who plays professionally (or even semi-pro, or part-time pro) will be without an income. There are many!

 

[DS3]

It is a bit frustrating but yes, we will still have some poker available to us.

Just recently (pretty much since the Olympics began) I would say that about 25% (seems more like 50%) of the commercial ads I am seeing after 6 p.m. ET, given this is probably primetime viewing, there has been what I think is a ridiculous number of 'BetRivers' sports betting platform advertising. One thing they have included in the graphics is that the platform is not available yet but coming soon to Ontario. So, we are now aware of the sports betting platforms working their way into the province but I'm still unsure just how much poker is affected. The Online Poker Report are the only one who has stated that online poker will be played with players only in Ontario - other articles have not stated this...yet. Time will tell how everything will work out but you are right! We still have online poker.

One of the articles I linked up there, indicated that there could be a loss of revenue over the course of 5 years. However, I'm unsure what the formula is to get to that loss. But, since the 'task force' has been digging deep into the regulation of gaming, gambling, sports betting, poker sites, since the closure of brick and mortar casinos during COVID19, one would think they would keep in mind just how much can be gained, rather than lost.

So in the end, we will most likely have poker available to play online even though it won't be what we were used to.

Yup. I can only imagine how frustrating this must be.

I have personally (like most) lost access to some sites, with hazy excuses at best, and note partypoker has just pulled out of the Russian and Moldovan markets.

I agree, I am not sure how in the longer term this could creates a loss for the party instigating the ring fencing, however. The pool the players can enter will shrunk drastically, along with it the potential to win larger amounts. But I presume the province feels they have locked down the market and therefore the funds won and lost will remain in Ontario which will drive the economy to some degree as opposed to funds disappearing overseas.

Obviously there is direct income in terms of licensing and taxes on the corporate earnings from the poker providers.

That said, I remain confused how sports betting has managed to spread its wings so wide and yet poker remains an issue. In the US market for example, I believe you can sports bet in some 30 states and play online poker in only six. Of course, I understand the 2018 ruling which allowed the sports betting expansion from a legal perspective but I am unclear as to why states which sanction such betting do not legitimize online poker also.

 

[Uncloggie]

Lousy politicians taking more freedoms away. I am just about done with Canada as a whole. Its becoming Chinada quickly. Go Truckers !

Ontario can go to hell, as far as I'm concerned. I live there, and I will boycott poker, rather than play on their lousy sites.

Screw it.

I'm unvaxxed and they have taken away restaurants , gyms, bars, events, etc. this is just one more thing. I don't care anymore. Take it. I am ready to give up my job too, and get the hell out of this SXXXhole country. They've ruined it.

 

[DS3]

Really?

Just about every single player who plays professionally (or even semi-pro, or part-time pro) will be without an income. There are many!

I thought I had expressed my sympathy regarding the situation and I am sure players feel restricted. However, as noted they can still play.

By way of comparison poker is marketed to a New Jersey population of 8.8 million, Pennsylvania to 12.8 million and Michigan 9.9 million. Ontario has a population of 14.8 million.

Both New Jersey and Pennsylvania held winter series with guarantees as much as $1 million and I believe the recent growth of the game has been due to the fact the ability to play online was enthusiastically received. Which naturally because they were starting from zero again.

No one is saying this is okay or close to an ideal situation but tens millions have already faced ring fencing in various countries and states, and Australia shut down online poker completely. All I try to do is look at the situation realistically. I presume the offshore, grey market sites will see an increase in business.

 

[CRStals]

I thought I had expressed my sympathy regarding the situation and I am sure players feel restricted. However, as noted they can still play.

By way of comparison poker is marketed to a New Jersey population of 8.8 million, Pennsylvania to 12.8 million and Michigan 9.9 million. Ontario has a population of 14.8 million.

Both New Jersey and Pennsylvania held winter series with guarantees as much as $1 million and I believe the recent growth of the game has been due to the fact the ability to play online was enthusiastically received. Which naturally because they were starting from zero again.

No one is saying this is okay or close to an ideal situation but tens millions have already faced ring fencing in various countries and states, and Australia shut down online poker completely. All I try to do is look at the situation realistically. I presume the offshore, grey market sites will see an increase in business.

All of the above is true however there is one stark difference between those US States and Ontario in terms of the impact to online poker - the access to live poker.

In Ontario live poker is a shell of what it could - and should be. For a province with a population of 14 Million Plus - half of which located in the GTHA (Greater Toronto & Hamilton area) the number of poker rooms available is sparse and the list has not been fully verified by myself:

Casino Rama (~1 hour)
Casino Niagara (~2 hours)
Fallsview Casino (~2 hours)
Caesars Windsor (~4 hours)
Great Blue Heron (~90 mins)
Elements Brantford (~90 mins)
Shorelines Thousand Islands (~2 1/2 hours but not positive they have it anymore)
Playground Poker Club (Montreal, QC - 5/12 hours)

The point is - the lack of viable live poker is going to seriously hinder one's ability to fully appreciate and enjoy the game today. Many other casinos exist but do not offer poker as it has been phased out of many places in the province.

Without knowing who is going to be on the approved list of operators makes forecasting the full and true impact difficult but I would expect:
pokerstars.on.ca
GG Poker maybe
PartyPoker Ontario

Regardless, these operators are probably going to push the casino and sportsbetting side as that market is seen to be much larger than poker, but going after pure poker players is going to require large incentives to get people in. I'd hope the traffic at first would be OK but being restricted to Ontario only will certainly make grinding difficult, forget losing out on SCOOP, WCOOP, Sunday Million, GG Masters, and wsop circuits.

Obviously the "grey" sites like ACR, Sportsbetting, Bovida and BetOnline will most likely continue.

I for one get why they are doing this but hate the approach they have taken as there is a serious concern to the long term viability of playing poker in this province with all of this going through and so little information coming from the government. Par for the course - but of course with an election coming they are pushing positive news like removing the license plate sticker renewals, teasing easing COVID restrictions and dealing with the blockades that are clogging up border crossings and Ottawa in general.

 

[DS3]

All of the above is true however there is one stark difference between those US States and Ontario in terms of the impact to online poker - the access to live poker.

In Ontario live poker is a shell of what it could - and should be. For a province with a population of 14 Million Plus - half of which located in the GTHA (Greater Toronto & Hamilton area) the number of poker rooms available is sparse and the list has not been fully verified by myself:

Casino Rama (~1 hour)
Casino Niagara (~2 hours)
Fallsview Casino (~2 hours)
Caesars Windsor (~4 hours)
Great Blue Heron (~90 mins)
Elements Brantford (~90 mins)
Shorelines Thousand Islands (~2 1/2 hours but not positive they have it anymore)
Playground Poker Club (Montreal, QC - 5/12 hours)

The point is - the lack of viable live poker is going to seriously hinder one's ability to fully appreciate and enjoy the game today. Many other casinos exist but do not offer poker as it has been phased out of many places in the province.

Without knowing who is going to be on the approved list of operators makes forecasting the full and true impact difficult but I would expect:
PokerStars.on.ca
GG Poker maybe
PartyPoker Ontario....

Thanks for taking the time to supply the information regarding the live poker venues as well as your overall take on the Ontario poker scene- appreciated!

I believe, unfortunately, more and more jurisdictions will take the 'ring fence' route. After all anyone can now look at several European countries and see the economic benefit of locking poker turnover into a domestic economy, while essentially disregarding the players themselves.

Further as noted already, I'm sure authorities speculate the poker fraternity and their opinions are not going to get much traction with the general public therefore they can exert control with little push back.

Sad state of affairs.

 

[Poker Orifice]

I thought I had expressed my sympathy regarding the situation and I am sure players feel restricted. However, as noted they can still play.

.

True. They could enter playchip leagues. It is the same game after all... and it plays the same too. (3 of a kind does beat 2 pair)

 

[Poker Orifice]

as noted they can still play.

.

If the Rocky Mountains were levelled tomorrow, all of the skiers could ski the Niagara Escarpment.... I mean it's still skiing. They could still SKI!

 

[belizebum]

https://discord.gg/7MCCUMDp

Discord channel if you want to stay up to date.

 

[DS3]

True. They could enter playchip leagues. It is the same game after all... and it plays the same too. (3 of a kind does beat 2 pair)

I was under the impression this was serious issue meriting a serious conversation.

Apparently not.

 

[Shumkoolie]

Really?

Just about every single player who plays professionally (or even semi-pro, or part-time pro) will be without an income. There are many!

Exactly, maybe ask people like Arlie Shaban, Patrick "Egption" Tardif and Parker "Tonkaaaa" Talbot how this is half-cup full for them. They make their living playing online, and perhaps for them (I hope), they have the ability to pick up and move to a different location (Arlie lived on the West Coast for a while from what I recall). I don't know about Parker and Patrick's ability to move as it's not that easy to just pick up and go - there could be family/friends considerations that they have to account for.

And that's just who I know of immediately - for sure there are many others who aren't as visible as these three guys are.

Without knowing who is going to be on the approved list of operators makes forecasting the full and true impact difficult but I would expect:
PokerStars.on.ca
GG Poker maybe
PartyPoker Ontario

Regardless, these operators are probably going to push the casino and sportsbetting side as that market is seen to be much larger than poker, but going after pure poker players is going to require large incentives to get people in. I'd hope the traffic at first would be OK but being restricted to Ontario only will certainly make grinding difficult, forget losing out on SCOOP, WCOOP, Sunday Million, GG Masters, and WSOP circuits.

Obviously the "grey" sites like ACR, Sportsbetting, Bovida and BetOnline will most likely continue.

I see it from a similar viewpoint - that sites like Party and Stars, given their operating in ringfenced jurisdictions already in the United States and around the world, will have the ability to operate in Ontario. I don't expect that we'll have GG Poker available, as I believe they operate like ACR, globally only, and not in any ringfenced jurisdictions, though if I'm wrong, please point that out to me.

The only question then is, how soon will these approvals occur? If April 4th is the shutdown date, I don't anticipate anything happening that quickly.

As for the Casino and Sportsbetting side, they better not count on me as a customer, as I have zero interest in playing those on any sites. I get those free $1 sports bet chests on Stars after I've been playing some poker, and I just simply ignore them. One, I don't have the interest, but more importantly, I don't know enough about sports betting to think that I'd have any clue as to what I'm doing in the first place.

As for the Casino side, I've watched one streamer a little bit that many of you may know, TrainwrecksTV, who wins and loses millions of dollars and the swings are incredible, and just watching him and how he is, it's insane, and just not for me. I'm much happier playing micro stakes poker, where the swings won't affect me.

 

[CRStals]

Exactly, maybe ask people like Arlie Shaban, Patrick "Egption" Tardif and Parker "Tonkaaaa" Talbot how this is half-cup full for them. They make their living playing online, and perhaps for them (I hope), they have the ability to pick up and move to a different location (Arlie lived on the West Coast for a while from what I recall). I don't know about Parker and Patrick's ability to move as it's not that easy to just pick up and go - there could be family/friends considerations that they have to account for.

And that's just who I know of immediately - for sure there are many others who aren't as visible as these three guys are.




I see it from a similar viewpoint - that sites like Party and Stars, given their operating in ringfenced jurisdictions already in the United States and around the world, will have the ability to operate in Ontario. I don't expect that we'll have GG Poker available, as I believe they operate like ACR, globally only, and not in any ringfenced jurisdictions, though if I'm wrong, please point that out to me.

The only question then is, how soon will these approvals occur? If April 4th is the shutdown date, I don't anticipate anything happening that quickly.

As for the Casino and Sportsbetting side, they better not count on me as a customer, as I have zero interest in playing those on any sites. I get those free $1 sports bet chests on Stars after I've been playing some poker, and I just simply ignore them. One, I don't have the interest, but more importantly, I don't know enough about sports betting to think that I'd have any clue as to what I'm doing in the first place.

As for the Casino side, I've watched one streamer a little bit that many of you may know, TrainwrecksTV, who wins and loses millions of dollars and the swings are incredible, and just watching him and how he is, it's insane, and just not for me. I'm much happier playing micro stakes poker, where the swings won't affect me.

I'm not 100% sure on GG - I know they have applied for regional licenses in Europe but I'm not 100% on if those licenses access the global player pool or not. Defnitely Stars and Party will and given the roots of both in Canada I'd expect to see them show up in Ontario. Who else will be regulated, I don't know.

But Mike I'm like you in that I have little interest in a casino or sportsbetting site. As I've said in the past I do play in the casino but it's a second to poker and more of a convenience to have my bankroll available to both. I enjoy watching a few slot streamers myself - I've checked in on Trainwreck but I tend to watch Roshtein most. Again, watching them plow $30 to $50k into a bonus spin to win millions is wild and fun to watch.

Personally I would have much rather seen the province tax winnings to a small percent than go down this hole but hind sight is 20/20 I suppose...

 

[rachelle2291]

This is very bad and Quebec might follow. I hope they never do that here in Saskatchewan. I do not think they will because the player pool would not be large enough. It would be a very shallow pool indeed. If you ever dived into it you would probably get a concussion.

 

[terryk]

I moved on from poker for 10 yrs before,,,i can do it again. :deal: My "main" income winner is sports-betting,,,and they can never touch that. (pick 1 of 2 teams,,,easy!!) $$$ i will use the extra time wisely,,, :wavey: it was fun!

 

[DS3]

Exactly, maybe ask people like Arlie Shaban, Patrick "Egption" Tardif and Parker "Tonkaaaa" Talbot how this is half-cup full for them. They make their living playing online, and perhaps for them (I hope), they have the ability to pick up and move to a different location (Arlie lived on the West Coast for a while from what I recall). I don't know about Parker and Patrick's ability to move as it's not that easy to just pick up and go - there could be family/friends considerations that they have to account for....

Fair enough, we all understand how some players are going to face restrictions and a drop in income if they decide to remain in Ontario. Everyone here has expressed concern.

The larger point I would pose is ring fencing is likely to become ubiquitous, the norm rather than the exception in future years. And I am not sure how anyone playing professionally is not anticipating the possibility.

Hundreds of millions (literally) have already faced losing poker and hundreds of millions (literally) have been ring fenced. That is simply stating reality.

Lex Veldhuis just relocated to Belgium from the netherlands in the last few months as PokerStars (as all operators) have been forced to comply with new government protocols. Whether or not he can return to play at his home base remains to be seen. However, Ontarians are not the only parties facing such difficulties.