Is Online Poker Rigged?

James_Harrison

James_Harrison

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Well a couple of days ago i finished first out of 130 or so made 3-4 final tables this weekend and i still think its rigged . It is possible all of us riggies are losers and bad poker players and we are all suffering from the same delusion as well. I like to keep an open mind about everything.:bootyshak Not sarcasm either.

To the people who told me collusion doesnt count as a rig or that i should quit poker.... :) ill just say im glad i listened to my heart and not you.
 
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jsnake716

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I have never read a post or article strong enough to compel me to believe online poker is rigged. So my answer is No.


I say it is not "rigged", but I do like reading the comments LoL- here are some stats that show you how bad variance can be. I have picked up my volume lately, so yesterday and today I have played 16 Mtt's low stakes only $5 buy-ins and in the course of my hands I just checked my database. I had 15 flips - me having 2 over cards against small midling pairs. I won 1 out of 15 hands (LoL) Some people will write a paragraph rant because they lost 1 or 2 , folks that is the game of poker. I had AK lose to 22, 33, 99, in the same hour.

And on other days that I quickly forget I will win every single flip:D
 
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Heresthecooler

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It seems "good" internet players don't think it's rigged. I think it's rigged. It's mostly rigged to keep the money in motion. When you cash out, you're beating the cardroom. Discrediting bots, collusion, and patterns would just be nonsense. The patterns are a lot harder to predict. One would have to write down every hand and whether the person would win or lose. It would take several hundred hands to pick up on just one or two patterns.
 
Frank flores

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A lot of players make this claim when they suffer a series of bad beats - we get our share of them around here.

Let's have a serious discussion about it. Read this article:

Is online poker safe or rigged?

There is some really good information in that article that explains some of the misconceptions players have.

The thing I see the most is players having a bad day or even a bad week - or they are making a lot of wrong decisions - and they instantly think the game is cheating them.

They will post hands and say "No way should this happen!" - and I know instantly they have never played live poker. I have been playing live poker for about 10 years and I have seen it all happen in a situation where it can not possibly be rigged.

What are your thoughts?

(ps - this is not the place to post your bad beat hands!)


It is what it is you win some in most definitely lose some but it is all on how you play your cards
 
PackinPat

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Help. If God Mode stat's are accurate and he is losing most flips, 60/40, and 70/. what is the stats of the opponents? There seems to be so many inconsistencies. Can the software be set like a slot machine? Still I like the theory that the software just wants to keep you playing.
 
WSMFP1986

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When the big online site's come back to states that will make it legal, I'm thinking that it will be a gaming company in the USA, that regulates the games on the sites? And then I wonder if you we see the amazing beats in the same amounts as you do on ACR/Black Chip
 
frank174

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As long as they have forced in the description of forced random its got to be fixed .that being said I believe the fix is that its always forcing action at a rate the doesn't come close to what happens live
 
PackinPat

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When the big online site's come back to states that will make it legal, I'm thinking that it will be a gaming company in the USA, that regulates the games on the sites? And then I wonder if you we see the amazing beats in the same amounts as you do on ACR/Black Chip
I sure do hope they come back! If it becomes regulated in the US maybe the rest of the world will follow :rolleyes:
 
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kristersb123

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Most likely not, only bots can be possible in some sites, it's not worth for poker sites themselves to cheat lol
 
James_Harrison

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Ok, in theory, one may see more hands per hour via online opposed to live, thus leading to more bad beats.

Ok, so logically then, one should/could receive more wins per hour

Exactly right.. you know what that tells me ? there either really are alot of shills out there that have vested interest. Or to put it politely people out there that talk about this, that dont see the other side of the coin, dont have an open mind, or are not really that smart at all in certain areas...
 
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tomk7788

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Shills? If not how can you explain someone who calls off a 120 BB stack after a PFR, 3Bet, an all in 4Bet and a call? He insta called off his stack after all that action with 66. What did he think he was ahead of? He flopped a set to beat KK, AK and JJ.
 
James_Harrison

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Shills? If not how can you explain someone who calls off a 120 BB stack after a PFR, 3Bet, an all in 4Bet and a call? He insta called off his stack after all that action with 66. What did he think he was ahead of? He flopped a set to beat KK, AK and JJ.


Its all rigged sadly.

Ive seen people calling allins when i have aces at final tables with Q 9 off and there is no explanation.(stack size is huge everything)

Oh they flops straights too.

Oh and its not isolated it happens like every day.
 
neontuning

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I believe it is safe. I play in many rooms and always have a bad beat, but sometimes we also win better hands. So way is play and have fun!

Poker always will have winners and losers! It's normal.
 
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Jakeslate808

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I am going to have to say that it probably depends on the site. Take zynga for instance, 100% rigged. Now maybe a year ago, id have said no way. But these last few months its gotten to the point where you WILL NOT win with just a pair. Anytime i have high pair, guaranteed to lose. Shit anytime i have a 3 of a kind, i only win when i have 2 of those 3 in my hand. Otherwise somebody else has the same 3 with a higher kicker. Flushes happen more often than 2 pairs. Now i understand the whole streak of bad luck but its been 3+ months of bad beat after bad beat, and anytime i have a monster hand i cant bet big because nobody else so much as has a pair. Dead serious, when playing the other night, i 100% shit you not, at one point out of 10 hands span,there were 6 full houses(5 of em held by the same dude),2 flushes, and 2 3 of a kinds. And this happens OFTEN. Yet irl, ive never heard of such a thing
 
pokergopher

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A lot of players make this claim when they suffer a series of bad beats - we get our share of them around here.

Let's have a serious discussion about it. Read this article:

Is online poker safe or rigged?

There is some really good information in that article that explains some of the misconceptions players have.

The thing I see the most is players having a bad day or even a bad week - or they are making a lot of wrong decisions - and they instantly think the game is cheating them.

They will post hands and say "No way should this happen!" - and I know instantly they have never played live poker. I have been playing live poker for about 10 years and I have seen it all happen in a situation where it can not possibly be rigged.

What are your thoughts?

(ps - this is not the place to post your bad beat hands!)


Another factor while playing online is people can save hand history. It becomes even more ingrained in memory as you review the historical bad beats. They take on a life of their own because you relive the pain over and over again.
 
Galmedic

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From leader to looser in 5 short premium hand sucks so bad
 
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Pauliethirteen

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I feel like they let the players who deposit the most due to losing alot beat players who play well and dont make as many deposits....the ridiculous hands and plays by some players are obviously a gambling mentality....
 
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digdug0037

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bad beats

I read some articles the other day that talk about people who talk a lot about bad beats. More than likely it was just bad play on their part. I have played a lot of online and live poker and I have also seen my fair share of crazy hands, mostly online. The only conclusion I can come to is with the number of hands we see online and as fast as they play out, it is only certain that we will see more crazy hands online.
 
teebahnoo

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A question nobody seem to ask

Multiple questions, actually.I selectively went trough the posts in this lengthy thread and I apologies if I repeat something that has being said before.

1. What is "game integrity"?

I work in the IT industry. We operate with contracts called SLA (service level agreement) in which metrics are used to described the service. As in, 99% availability. Is there any description of the sorts put in a legally binding manner anywhere about what is "game integrity"? Often, people bring in the RNG as an ultimate defense for the "integrity" of the card dealing machine but what does it apply to? Just as a thought, let's say my dealing machine is programmed to deliver "big hand vs big hand" on a regular basis (say 1 % of the time) in a random fashion (not knowing who the players will be). Can I call that "integrity"? Is there anything preventing me to do it?

2. How can a much bigger number of games played influence the randomness?

This shaky reason is given as an explanation of the bad beats. So, if I toss a coin a billion times I'm going to get guaranteed bad beats as well? That's not how the theory works - there's no correlation between the tosses. I might get, but is not guaranteed. I might not get any bad beats whatsoever or a small number of them.

3. The poker industry is very regulated and therefore a small chance of rigging it.

Completely absurd logic IMO. The most regulated industry on the planet nowadays is the financial sector. There's not a single quarter in the past 10 years without some big name bank getting fined for rigging the markets. A sign of healthy regulation oversight is the constant enforcement, not the lack of it. Think about Boeing and their plane that was "regulated" in very similar manner: no actual oversight, no enforcement, no acceptance of responsibility until every single other country grounded the damn plane.

@Debi, I'd love to see your thoughts on these questions
 
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C

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Probably

I say “probably” not because of what I observed when I used to play a lot of online poker, but because I know that engineering a game of chance to cheat is remarkably simple. Take a look at any Solitaire App. It will almost always have settings for altering the level of difficulty, ie cheat settings. And you don’t even need to mess with the random card generator. Remember, this is a computer program that can process a gazillion tasks almost instantaneously. What you see on the screen is not necessarily what is being generated in the program. In other words, there is no technical reason why a gaming program cannot generate a random set of cards, deal the hole cards, deal the flop, the turn and the river, store that information and then render the visual representation of those completed tasks as necessary.
A poker program can also easily generate multiple ai/bot players on each table. Creating bot players, even relatively sophisticated ai/bots is something even a newbie programmer would have as part of their skill set. Every card and board game app on your phone has bot players. There are ai chess programs that can beat some of the worlds best human players. And we are talking here about a billion dollar gaming industry that has the resources to hire the very best programmers. There is no technical reason why an online poker program can’t reveal other players hole cards to ai/bot players or even the flop, turn and river cards before you see them on the screen. It is the same program generating those cards and operating the bots.
All of this information given to a couple of ai/bot players clearly would allow the gaming site to manipulate outcomes to its own advantage. A clever site would resist the temptation to be overly greedy and would tweak the ai so that the bots didn’t win too often, but even shifting the wins in the house’s favour by a few percentage points over thousands of hands per day would mean millions of dollars a year.
But wouldn’t real players detect this cheating? I can say that as a poker player who played online quite a bit, it would be hard to detect. Again, watching for randomness doesn’t matter because rigging games doesn’t require a nonrandom deal, only that the information from the random deal is shared with ai/bot players. And detecting bots isn’t so easy either. My experience on online poker rooms is that there is very little that could distinguish between a real player and a sophisticated ai/bot player. Players calling and making long shots is so common that it makes you want to throw probabilities out the window. And attempting to chat doesn’t reveal much, since many players don’t seem to chat at all or don’t chat in English or some big sites have no chat feature at all.
Again, I have no evidence cheating is happening, only the knowledge that rigging outcomes would be so remarkably simple and so hugely profitable that it would almost be shocking to me that this wasn’t being done. I guess the question is, what are the risks vs reward for big online gaming corporations? The rewards would be huge. Potentially hundreds of millions more in profits. And yeah, they already make a lot with rake, but even a first year business student knows that businesses don’t just want to make a profit, they want to maximize profits. And you just have to look at Enron, Lehman Brothers, Volkswagen and Chrysler over the last twenty years to know how far big corporations will go to cheat and lie when profits are on the line. But what about regulators governing the gaming industry? Well, I know of one “regulator” close to Montreal where I work. They’re called the Kahnawake Gaming Commission (KGC), located on an Indian reserve bordering Quebec and New York State and it just so happens that the KGC is the regulatory body governing some of the biggest gaming sites in the world. How did an Indian reserve become a global gaming regulator? Who knows, but I do know that the RCMP have stated that this reserve has a long history running contraband for organized crime families in New York and Montreal. Some of the other regulatory bodies are in places like the Cayman Islands, beyond the reach of law enforcement. So, yeah, sounds a bit like the foxes watching the hen house to me.
So, should you play on these poker sites. Well, maybe they are clean and maybe you can still win money if they aren’t. But for myself, I’d found a brick and mortar room to play in with real, live humans. It may not have massive pots, but it’s a lot more fun.

.
 
puzzlefish

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Nice to see a couple of people thinking critically about the legitimacy of regulatory bodies for online poker.
 
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Re: randomness and rigging games

Okay, here is maybe a more simple analogy describing how a computer program could cheat at Texas Hold-Em.
Think of a hold-em game at a table of six players. The dealer shuffles a deck of cards and does a really thorough job. But after shuffling the deck, the dealer sneakily flips her thumb across the deck so that she gets a quick peak at every card. This dealer has super-human memory and is able to remember every card and the order of every card she just saw. So, now she deals the top twelve cards as the hole cards and she knows what those cards are and who will get them. She also knows the next three cards are the flop and because of her perfect memory, she knows what those cards are too. And she knows the next two cards are the turn and river and what those cards are. But our special dealer shares another power. Telepathy. And she is helping two other players who share her telepathic power. She can pass the card information on to these players. These two players can now make all their decisions, even coordinate their bets using the knowledge of what cards other players are holding and what cards are coming on the flop, turn and river.
This is essentially what a computer program running a rigged poker game could do. It generates a randomly shuffled deck. But it essentially “peaks” at the deck before it is dealt. It knows the order of every card in this random deck. Using this information, and how many players are in the game, it knows all the hole cards and who will get them and it knows what the flop, turn and river cards will be. And it shares this information with ai/bot players who are programmed to use this information to calculate decisions about whether to fold, check or bet and even how much to bet. It potentially gives the house a massive advantage in manipulating games.
Again, not saying whether this kind of cheating actually happens, only saying that it is remarkably simple to program and potentially hugely profitable.
 
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lintsikka

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Very rigged. Sure you play lot of hands but such weird stuff happens that otherwise impossible :)
 
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