Dwilius
CardsChat Regular
Silver Level
It can depend on their preflop stats...(edit: oh sorry low vpip)? I think 2.0 aggression after flop would be on high side for someone playing any two cards, while on the low side for a tight preflop player.
Hmm, 2.0 is kind of borderline for your top pair hand vs low vpip player isn't it...sorry, no answer here.:dong:
Hmm, 2.0 is kind of borderline for your top pair hand vs low vpip player isn't it...sorry, no answer here.:dong:
Last edited:
Lemlywinks
Legend
Silver Level
Cool. First one evar
pokerstars Game #28553071620: Hold'em No Limit ($0.01/$0.02) - 2009/05/24 2:53:48 ET
Table 'Peraga IV' 6-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: lemlywinks ($8.50 in chips)
Seat 2: B322A ($6.20 in chips)
Seat 3: Bramlet 37 ($17.91 in chips)
Seat 5: UglyGuru ($5 in chips)
Seat 6: yulitOsS ($0.78 in chips)
lemlywinks: posts small blind $0.01
B322A: posts big blind $0.02
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to lemlywinks [Jh Kh]
Bramlet 37: folds
UglyGuru: folds
yulitOsS: calls $0.02
lemlywinks: raises $0.08 to $0.10
B322A: calls $0.08
yulitOsS: calls $0.08
*** FLOP *** [Ah Qh Th]
lemlywinks: checks
B322A: checks
yulitOsS: checks
*** TURN *** [Ah Qh Th] [9d]
lemlywinks: bets $0.12
B322A: folds
yulitOsS: folds
Uncalled bet ($0.12) returned to lemlywinks
lemlywinks collected $0.30 from pot
lemlywinks: shows [Jh Kh] (a Royal Flush)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $0.30 | Rake $0
Board [Ah Qh Th 9d]
Seat 1: lemlywinks (small blind) collected ($0.30)
Seat 2: B322A (big blind) folded on the Turn
Seat 3: Bramlet 37 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: UglyGuru folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: yulitOsS (button) folded on the Turn
pokerstars Game #28553071620: Hold'em No Limit ($0.01/$0.02) - 2009/05/24 2:53:48 ET
Table 'Peraga IV' 6-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: lemlywinks ($8.50 in chips)
Seat 2: B322A ($6.20 in chips)
Seat 3: Bramlet 37 ($17.91 in chips)
Seat 5: UglyGuru ($5 in chips)
Seat 6: yulitOsS ($0.78 in chips)
lemlywinks: posts small blind $0.01
B322A: posts big blind $0.02
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to lemlywinks [Jh Kh]
Bramlet 37: folds
UglyGuru: folds
yulitOsS: calls $0.02
lemlywinks: raises $0.08 to $0.10
B322A: calls $0.08
yulitOsS: calls $0.08
*** FLOP *** [Ah Qh Th]
lemlywinks: checks
B322A: checks
yulitOsS: checks
*** TURN *** [Ah Qh Th] [9d]
lemlywinks: bets $0.12
B322A: folds
yulitOsS: folds
Uncalled bet ($0.12) returned to lemlywinks
lemlywinks collected $0.30 from pot
lemlywinks: shows [Jh Kh] (a Royal Flush)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $0.30 | Rake $0
Board [Ah Qh Th 9d]
Seat 1: lemlywinks (small blind) collected ($0.30)
Seat 2: B322A (big blind) folded on the Turn
Seat 3: Bramlet 37 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: UglyGuru folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: yulitOsS (button) folded on the Turn
slycbnew
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
If this is useful to someone else, great - any comments or feedback are welcome.
After richyl responded at least twice to my posts that I may want to look at my value betting, and after reading the great thread on blind defense that Deco started and several others contributed to (can't recommend it enough), and after reading a hand analysis that switch started recently, I realized that the pf style I've been using the last two months is virtually designed to avoid postflop play. I was 3betting monsters, medium hands, and speculative hands OOP and IP - in the blinds, I always 3bet my monsters as well as my speculative hands. I rarely allowed Villain to take the lead unless I had the virtual nuts. This style has worked for me over my time at 50NL - simply increase cbet % as high as it can go, double barrel a lot, and avoid tables where players don't play "fit or fold" poker. This resulted in a dependable, but not spectacular, winrate over 40K hands.
I realize now this is going to hurt me as I move up. I'm losing value because Villains are not paying off multiple streets of value, just the pf raise and (maybe) the cbet. Occasionally I win a huge pot because Villains correctly figure out that my cbet % is too high, and they happen to pick a time to play back at me when I have a monster. But it's been rare for me to get to more than 200BB or so on any table.
The last couple of days I've spent a lot of time trying to play postflop IP (well, the "IP" part was added after I royally screwed myself in several pots OOP). I also watched a cool free (old) video on DC on playing 3bet pots.
It's been a little frustrating - one of the side effects of my pf style of play is that I don't get sucked out on that much, and opening up postflop play for me is allowing that to happen more frequently. It's also been rewarding - I've made a ton of mistakes (several of them for stacks), but I've been learning a lot. The variance feels higher, and I'm still not comfortable going with my reads and betting the river hard enough for thin value. But I definitely get the point, and see how this will increase value over the long run.
Just wanted to share this in case anyone else is where I am. I started by playing tourneys rather than RG's (I only started playing cash in January), so I blame that for not grasping the importance of postflop play.
Thanks to everyone here for helping me see the light (it's still at the end of the tunnel, but it's getting brighter)!
After richyl responded at least twice to my posts that I may want to look at my value betting, and after reading the great thread on blind defense that Deco started and several others contributed to (can't recommend it enough), and after reading a hand analysis that switch started recently, I realized that the pf style I've been using the last two months is virtually designed to avoid postflop play. I was 3betting monsters, medium hands, and speculative hands OOP and IP - in the blinds, I always 3bet my monsters as well as my speculative hands. I rarely allowed Villain to take the lead unless I had the virtual nuts. This style has worked for me over my time at 50NL - simply increase cbet % as high as it can go, double barrel a lot, and avoid tables where players don't play "fit or fold" poker. This resulted in a dependable, but not spectacular, winrate over 40K hands.
I realize now this is going to hurt me as I move up. I'm losing value because Villains are not paying off multiple streets of value, just the pf raise and (maybe) the cbet. Occasionally I win a huge pot because Villains correctly figure out that my cbet % is too high, and they happen to pick a time to play back at me when I have a monster. But it's been rare for me to get to more than 200BB or so on any table.
The last couple of days I've spent a lot of time trying to play postflop IP (well, the "IP" part was added after I royally screwed myself in several pots OOP). I also watched a cool free (old) video on DC on playing 3bet pots.
It's been a little frustrating - one of the side effects of my pf style of play is that I don't get sucked out on that much, and opening up postflop play for me is allowing that to happen more frequently. It's also been rewarding - I've made a ton of mistakes (several of them for stacks), but I've been learning a lot. The variance feels higher, and I'm still not comfortable going with my reads and betting the river hard enough for thin value. But I definitely get the point, and see how this will increase value over the long run.
Just wanted to share this in case anyone else is where I am. I started by playing tourneys rather than RG's (I only started playing cash in January), so I blame that for not grasping the importance of postflop play.
Thanks to everyone here for helping me see the light (it's still at the end of the tunnel, but it's getting brighter)!
Caseace48
Rock Star
Silver Level
+15.39 during a 90 Minute session, Played really really well , ran $48EV. Unfortunately AA<KK and Top set<runner runner flush for stacks can kill profitz. All in all good to get off to a positive note for my first session back at 25NL . Excited to hopefully never got back to 10NL again!~
*knock on wood*
Sorry just had to share~
P.S. Gratz on Royal lemly
. Excited to hopefully never got back to 10NL again!~*knock on wood*
Sorry just had to share~
P.S. Gratz on Royal lemly
C
cAPSLOCK
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
As absolutely harsh as poker can possibly get:
PokerStars Pot-Limit Omaha, $0.02 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
MP ($5)
Button ($2.33)
cAPS (SB) ($3.80)
BB ($1.61)
UTG ($2.12)
Preflop: cAPS is SB with
,
,
,
3 folds, cAPS calls $0.01, BB checks
Flop: ($0.04)
,
,
(2 players)
cAPS checks, BB checks
Turn: ($0.04)
(2 players)
cAPS bets $0.04, BB calls $0.04
River: ($0.12)
(2 players)
cAPS bets $0.12, BB raises to $0.48, cAPS raises to $1.56, BB calls $1.07 (All-In)
Total pot: $3.22 | Rake: $0.15
Results:
cAPS had 6
, 9
, 5
, 5
(four of a kind, fives).
BB had 2
, 8
, 10
, 6
(straight flush, nine high).
Outcome: BB won $3.07
PokerStars Pot-Limit Omaha, $0.02 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
MP ($5)
Button ($2.33)
cAPS (SB) ($3.80)
BB ($1.61)
UTG ($2.12)
Preflop: cAPS is SB with
3 folds, cAPS calls $0.01, BB checks
Flop: ($0.04)
cAPS checks, BB checks
Turn: ($0.04)
cAPS bets $0.04, BB calls $0.04
River: ($0.12)
cAPS bets $0.12, BB raises to $0.48, cAPS raises to $1.56, BB calls $1.07 (All-In)
Total pot: $3.22 | Rake: $0.15
Results:
cAPS had 6
BB had 2
Outcome: BB won $3.07
Last edited:
kleitches
Visionary
Silver Level
As absolutely harsh as poker can possibly get:
PokerStars Pot-Limit Omaha, $0.02 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
MP ($5)
Button ($2.33)
cAPS (SB) ($3.80)
BB ($1.61)
UTG ($2.12)
Preflop: cAPS is SB with,,,
3 folds, cAPS calls $0.01, BB checks
Flop: ($0.04),,(2 players)
cAPS checks, BB checks
Turn: ($0.04)(2 players)
cAPS bets $0.04, BB calls $0.04
River: ($0.12)(2 players)
cAPS bets $0.12, BB raises to $0.48, cAPS raises to $1.56, BB calls $1.07 (All-In)
Total pot: $3.22 | Rake: $0.15
Results:
cAPS had 6, 9, 5, 5(four of a kind, fives).
BB had 2, 8, 10, 6(straight flush, nine high).
Outcome: BB won $3.07
SICK! Also, how come you don't have auto-top up enabled?
NineLions
Advanced beginner
Silver Level
Which one are you talking about, sly? I probably have it but I don't recall any having a big impact on me so I'm curious to know what worked for you.
C
cAPSLOCK
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
I never know how serious people are when the comment here so I will pretend you are.
No. I ignored a set of fives completely in Omahaha. In fact I would have folded to a minbet.
Then I decided to semibluff potbet my fullhouse/gs straight redraw on the turn. With his call I was once again prepared to let go entirly without a miricle on the river.
The five of diamonds was a serious mircle.
slycbnew
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
"Unconventional Wisdom" Season Premiere, DJ Sensei and fslexcduck, Dec. 31 2007 - on their website, it's the first video listed on the free videos tab. Really drove home for me envisioning ranges for Villains, the importance of reading boards, connecting those, and bet sizing.
Warning - I ended up playing way too many 3bet pots the last few days after watching this and spewed several stacks off - but I was frequently able to connect what they were talking about with what was happening in that hand - and I won several stacks in situations I know I would not have before watching the video.
Need to learn to choose the right vllains to pick on, still working on that, I could tell what was going on easily with some villains, with others it was much harder.
Lemlywinks
Legend
Silver Level
Just saw this btw, and I kinda want to hear responses, so bump.
Imo, if you show stars you will get more respect for hands. So i guess its kinda player dependent. If you love running bluffs then showing it may not be a bad idea.
Other thoughts?
slycbnew
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
I agree with others, that many who show their stars are actually not very good. I don't give these guys any more respect (especially Platinums and SN's who shortstack at 50NL - wtf).
I think the stars will intimidate the fish - I was intimidated when I first started playing online - which I don't necessarily think is a good thing. I want them to be comfortable and have fun w me, not to be intimidated. To me, this is a little like tapping the tank. And the regs know I'm putting in a fair number of hands, so no need to let them know what my status is (btw, I made platinum this month
).
Caseace48
Rock Star
Silver Level
From my experience and maybe just misguided perspective, I prefer to keep status turned off to other players. I like the lack of respect from players who arn't regs, it just suites my game better. I'm sure there are arguments for either side simply because playstyles can be so dependant on the success of this. But yeah...just my thoughts
aesopdurasic
Rock Star
Silver Level
After 18k hands at .01/.02 nl. I was able to win enough money to move up to .02/.05 nl. So far it seems to play pretty similar but am also only 3k hands in so far. Well here is my graph and stats for 6 max .01/.02 nl
I hope I can have the same sucess at .02/.05
I hope I can have the same sucess at .02/.05
Last edited:
NineLions
Advanced beginner
Silver Level
Thanks, I remember it now.
I just got a DC membership a few weeks back so I've been watching so many videos that everything that I've seen is a vague blur. I remember now thinking that's one I want to go back to.
NineLions
Advanced beginner
Silver Level
I think Rex leaves it off at cash and puts it on for tournaments where the range of opposition is wider and less regs that he knows/know him.
I'm blown away by some of the people that show it though. Saw a platinum star at my $25 table once, and another time one at my $50 who was playing with half a stack.
Deltafrost
Rock Star
Silver Level
New topic: playing monsters BvB.
So the other day Slyce and I were at a 50nl 6max table, I cant find the HH right now cuz im on a diff computer, but basically it went like this
I get dealt KK in BB, folds around to SB (slyce) he raises to 2
I 3bet to 6, he 4bets to somewhere around 18.
I opted to shove, thinking that it was BvB and i knew villain so figured he would expect me to play back and stack lighter. In hindsight after some discussion with Slyce, should I have flatted and gotten more EV postflop.
What about other situations BvB when your playing a laggy player? Do you usually shove or play postflop and let them make greater mistakes than folding their weaker holding preflop?
BTN vs Blind? how does it change your game when your IP and OOP, more willing to flat kk IP?
So the other day Slyce and I were at a 50nl 6max table, I cant find the HH right now cuz im on a diff computer, but basically it went like this
I get dealt KK in BB, folds around to SB (slyce) he raises to 2
I 3bet to 6, he 4bets to somewhere around 18.
I opted to shove, thinking that it was BvB and i knew villain so figured he would expect me to play back and stack lighter. In hindsight after some discussion with Slyce, should I have flatted and gotten more EV postflop.
What about other situations BvB when your playing a laggy player? Do you usually shove or play postflop and let them make greater mistakes than folding their weaker holding preflop?
BTN vs Blind? how does it change your game when your IP and OOP, more willing to flat kk IP?
eNTy
Legend
Silver Level
Ok Delta,
BTN vs BB, here's a hand I totally butchered imo.
Villain is a fancy spewtard. 44/26/3 with a 15% 3bet.
SB: $49.50 (99 bb)
BB: $83.10 (166.2 bb)
MP1: $103.20 (206.4 bb)
MP2: $65.10 (130.2 bb)
MP3: $95.75 (191.5 bb)
CO: $52.05 (104.1 bb)
Hero (BTN): $50 (100 bb)
Pre-Flop: Hero is BTN with K:heart: K:diamond:
4 folds, Hero raises to $2, SB folds, BB raises to $6.50, Hero calls $4.50
Flop: ($13.25) 3:spade: Q:heart: 8:heart: (2 players)
BB bets $11, Hero raises to $26.50, BB folds
Results:[spoil] $35.25 pot ($1.70 rake)
Hero mucked K:heart: K:diamond: (a pair of Kings) and won $33.55 ($16.05 net)
[/spoil]
First, 4betting is still a lot better in this spot than just flatting his 3bet.
I figured that I could get more out of him postflop. Which is true to some extent. But we want to play for stacks against this fish. And 4betting gets us there faster
more of the time than taking the 3bet pot post flop and trying to let him make a mistake here.
It's basically a lot easier for him to call or shove over our 4bet incorrectly than it is for him to lose his stack post flop.
Second, on the flop, a call is probably a lot better. A lot of the times I get paranoid/scared with my monsters and play them hard. This flop is actually pretty safe for us. If he has a Q, that will just make him lose his stack faster. It's unlikely he has two hearts but if he does it's probably still better to just call his (what appears to be a strong) donk bet. And well, if he flopped a set or some other monster or sucks out, that's just variance imo.
And thirdly my raise size just sucks so much. I much prefer just shoving here than doing this weird 2.5x raise, or better yet make it $30. It looks really strong I guess and a lot of the time he'll just have air so I think calling is more +ev than raising here.
What do you think ?
BTN vs BB, here's a hand I totally butchered imo.
Villain is a fancy spewtard. 44/26/3 with a 15% 3bet.
SB: $49.50 (99 bb)
BB: $83.10 (166.2 bb)
MP1: $103.20 (206.4 bb)
MP2: $65.10 (130.2 bb)
MP3: $95.75 (191.5 bb)
CO: $52.05 (104.1 bb)
Hero (BTN): $50 (100 bb)
Pre-Flop: Hero is BTN with K:heart: K:diamond:
4 folds, Hero raises to $2, SB folds, BB raises to $6.50, Hero calls $4.50
Flop: ($13.25) 3:spade: Q:heart: 8:heart: (2 players)
BB bets $11, Hero raises to $26.50, BB folds
Results:[spoil] $35.25 pot ($1.70 rake)
Hero mucked K:heart: K:diamond: (a pair of Kings) and won $33.55 ($16.05 net)
[/spoil]
First, 4betting is still a lot better in this spot than just flatting his 3bet.
I figured that I could get more out of him postflop. Which is true to some extent. But we want to play for stacks against this fish. And 4betting gets us there faster
more of the time than taking the 3bet pot post flop and trying to let him make a mistake here.
It's basically a lot easier for him to call or shove over our 4bet incorrectly than it is for him to lose his stack post flop.
Second, on the flop, a call is probably a lot better. A lot of the times I get paranoid/scared with my monsters and play them hard. This flop is actually pretty safe for us. If he has a Q, that will just make him lose his stack faster. It's unlikely he has two hearts but if he does it's probably still better to just call his (what appears to be a strong) donk bet. And well, if he flopped a set or some other monster or sucks out, that's just variance imo.
And thirdly my raise size just sucks so much. I much prefer just shoving here than doing this weird 2.5x raise, or better yet make it $30. It looks really strong I guess and a lot of the time he'll just have air so I think calling is more +ev than raising here.
What do you think ?
Deltafrost
Rock Star
Silver Level
I agree here you have to 4bet. You've got position, he's alot more likely to rejam if he gets fancy, and he's probably 3betting like 22-55 as bluffs and 99+for value so theres alot of set opportunities where hes closer to getting odds, especially being the agressor. Plus him flatting a 4bet oop is just terrible so you can safely jam any flop profitably I think.
As played preflop however, I completely agree, you need to flat this flop. I think even shoving or a $30 bet looks too strong and hes really only stacking like AQ, KQ, Sets, and maybe 99,1010, JJ if he thinks you can play back at him. But that depends on your image too. I know your stacking him if he has a Q in his range but i dont think thats enough of his range for it to be the most +EV situation.
I much prefer flatting flop and getting it in on non A, Q turns.
Also, whats his cbet % in 3bet pots? or do you have enough hands for that to be relatively close?
As played preflop however, I completely agree, you need to flat this flop. I think even shoving or a $30 bet looks too strong and hes really only stacking like AQ, KQ, Sets, and maybe 99,1010, JJ if he thinks you can play back at him. But that depends on your image too. I know your stacking him if he has a Q in his range but i dont think thats enough of his range for it to be the most +EV situation.
I much prefer flatting flop and getting it in on non A, Q turns.
Also, whats his cbet % in 3bet pots? or do you have enough hands for that to be relatively close?
slycbnew
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Here's the hh for the hand delta and I played...
I'd suggested to delta after the hand that he should have called my 4bet because he had position, and I'm almost certain to cbet almost any flop. I had been spewing before this hand on this table and thought he was 3betting me because of that.
After his reply, I think he was right to shove. We know each other, I know that he could be light, and some flops will kill action for him (or cause him to fold, even worse).
I also think I was wrong to fold, but I don't have stove right now to figure it out. I think enough big A's will shove here that I should have called. But at the time I didn't think 99 would shove, hence the fold, hence my desire to stove it.
--------------------
HAND #1
--------------------
poker stars, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker
Hero (SB): $50 (100 bb)
BB: $50 (100 bb)
UTG: $126.25 (252.5 bb)
MP: $51.50 (103 bb)
CO: $50 (100 bb)
BTN: $4 (8 bb)
Pre-Flop: Hero is SB with T
T
4 folds, Hero raises to $2, BB raises to $6, Hero raises to $18, BB raises to $50 and is all-in, Hero folds
Results: $36 pot
BB mucked and won $36 ($18 net)
I'd suggested to delta after the hand that he should have called my 4bet because he had position, and I'm almost certain to cbet almost any flop. I had been spewing before this hand on this table and thought he was 3betting me because of that.
After his reply, I think he was right to shove. We know each other, I know that he could be light, and some flops will kill action for him (or cause him to fold, even worse).
I also think I was wrong to fold, but I don't have stove right now to figure it out. I think enough big A's will shove here that I should have called. But at the time I didn't think 99 would shove, hence the fold, hence my desire to stove it.
--------------------
HAND #1
--------------------
poker stars, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker
Hero (SB): $50 (100 bb)
BB: $50 (100 bb)
UTG: $126.25 (252.5 bb)
MP: $51.50 (103 bb)
CO: $50 (100 bb)
BTN: $4 (8 bb)
Pre-Flop: Hero is SB with T
4 folds, Hero raises to $2, BB raises to $6, Hero raises to $18, BB raises to $50 and is all-in, Hero folds
Results: $36 pot
BB mucked and won $36 ($18 net)