Weregoat
Visionary
Silver Level
Aces my line is very simple, raise every time action's on me preflop (short of a tricky play, but that has it's risks), and if I don't improve and depending on board texture bet/raise the entire way. The times I have to consider folding is when a possible scare card comes out, and an otherwise passive player begins raising the action. If I'm the aggressor the entire time, and I get raised on a sketchy turn that completes a 2nd nut straight draw, and all I've got is a pair, I could be up against a set, a straight, two pair, or a total bluff. I'm more inclined to believe that when I've been showing strength the entire time it would be a poor idea to start raising the action with a hand that defeats me, why not just let me hang myself, right? So I more than often figure them for a bluff.
Admittedly it's a short coming on my part - I have never fold Aces when I'm behind.
With a crappy hand, if you miss big you can fold easy. If you hit big you can disguise the strength of your hand - (AA doesn't have that priviledge, as an A kills a lot of action for one-pair type hands).
The only risk you have with playing hands like 75s, for instance, is when you have two pair against a better hand. So few of the complete hands 75s can make are the nuts, but a lot of hands AA can improve to are the nuts, however generally AA wins pots my betting/raising hard and not getting sucked out on.
However I've seen some gigantic pots go away from the AA because the player couldn't fold them. (And I won one of them. Flop Q88, I have 86o, villain bets, I raise, he calls. Turn 9, he checks, I jam, he instacalls (I figure I've run into QQ or 99), he flips over AA and whiffs on the river - that total pot had over 4 BI's in it, and while he had two A's, 3 Q's, and 3 9's, he got his money in with ~16% chance to win just because he couldn't fathom being beat.
I don't know if you've ever seen a $1300 pot shipped in $1 chips. LOL. That was funny, too, AA against trips, couldn't fold them. But that table's not even real poker so we won't count that.
And to those of you who say "check your HEM or PT3", yes, I know over hundreds of thousands of hands, AA is going to me the most consistant winner. It's just that it's a very simple hand to play, and you have to believe you're ahead the whole time to play it correctly, but when you are wrong it can be costly, especially against deep stacked opponents. Against a short stack, I love AA, or against tight players.
Against a deep stack, I'd rather work with a suited one-gapper because my hand can hide it's strength.
/overly long post
WG
Weregoat
Visionary
Silver Level
I am an implied-odds seeker.
And I always want my opponent to have the second best big hand against my hidden better hand.
AA is very strong, but very rarely is it's strength hidden. And very rarely do I know I'm behind. And very rarely to I make a set and have somebody else think they have a better hand than me (short of them having a set as well), or a hand that beats me... Which is why I don't like AA. When you're ahead, it's hard to get paid, when you're behind, it's hard to know it/fold.
R
rollnutilt
Rock Star
Silver Level
Is that an automatic shove preflop? Or try and trap and risk your aces getting cracked?
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M
Marginal
Junior Member
Silver Level
Jeez people, we cannot make these kinds of broad generalizations about certain hands. It depends on so many other factors.
R
rollnutilt
Rock Star
Silver Level
That I agree with. Even as an 80% favorite there is still 20% unaccounted for that will either felt you or you win a small pot depending on board texture etc. So as an 80% favorite you wouldn't shove pre-flop? A lot of other people would say you're getting in good with your money which is true but would think you're crazy if you don't.
Weregoat
Visionary
Silver Level
Preflop they're the easiest hand in the world to play, raise with the intent to re-raise.
Post flop they're more difficult. With only one pair on a board of KQ5 rainbow, you bet, get raised - does that mean you're beat?
Of course, it depends on a lot of factors, but you could be up against a wide range of hands. I'd raise against the original aggressor with AK, AQ, 55, and TJ here.
Of course, it all depends on how the hand played out. If the pot was 2-bet I consider KQ, KJ, QJ, TJ and 55, if the pot was 3-bet I consider AQ. AJ and QQ and the occaisonal KQ, if it was four bet I consider KK, AK, etc. And every time it rolls around to me preflop I'm raising, so it's easy to keep track of the last bet put in, and factor in the person I'm playing against.
I would much rather play Aces with smaller effective stacks than deeper. Perhaps that should have been my effective argument.
Weregoat
Visionary
Silver Level
Would you be so kind as to point me in the right direction for this excellent poker information?
It would help if it were all encompassing and outlined betting certain amounts to different types of villains so that you're not pot commited when you fall behind to two-pair or a set...
"If your opponent is going to make a set, don't bet as much, unless you are going to make a better hand."
Oh! Good, I think I get it now.
Preflop I'll stack off with AA happily, couldn't be in a better spot, period. On the flop, on most boards, I'll happily send it. But as the turn and river come along, I'm more obligated to be cautious, because if somebody called my 3-bet pre, my large bet on the flop, and my large bet on the turn, I'm pretty sure another bet is just going to be a barrel with little to no fold equity. So do I check/fold?
Naturally the answer is "it depends."
Meh. I still like 57s.
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KyleJRM
Visionary
Silver Level
You think you are. What you are really doing, most likely, is lag-spew.
atlantafalcons0
Legend
Silver Level
"I would much rather play Aces with smaller effective stacks than deeper. Perhaps that should have been my effective argument."
I still don't see why you would rather have shallow stacks if you have aces and the other guy has kings.
I still don't see why you would rather have shallow stacks if you have aces and the other guy has kings.
Weregoat
Visionary
Silver Level
"I would much rather play Aces with smaller effective stacks than deeper. Perhaps that should have been my effective argument."
I still don't see why you would rather have shallow stacks if you have aces and the other guy has kings.
If the other guy has KK and I have AA we're likely stacking off preflop, when I'm a favorite, so I love this.
I love when I get 3 or 4-bet when I have AA. Because that makes a shove a lot more profitable. Hell, I'll go so far as to say I love picking up the blinds with AA, because I do. I just hate the fact that in some cases I can be drawing dead and still believe my hand to be best.
I was going to post a much longer post about AA, but I went way too long and discussed too many things. I'm not writing a novel, and I'm pretty sure I didn't maintain my point, so I'll just leave it at the above.
Weregoat
Visionary
Silver Level
Call it what you will. It's a style of play I enjoy at live cash games, and I'm going to continue doing so until it is no longer profitable. I can play tight, too. But I'm very comfortable taking less-than premium holdings into raised pots against tight deep stacks, they have a very narrow range of hands, and when I hit big I get to jam.
I'm dealt 86o from the cutoff, 2/3 NL HE cash game, effective stacks $600. Villain has been playing very solid, hasn't shown down garbage, raises to $15 from MP. I call. Folded around.
Flop comes Qs8s8d. Villain bets close to the pot, around $30-$35, I reraise to $130. He calls. Turn comes 9h, villain checks, I jam, he calls after about three seconds and I'm certain I'm beat by either QQ, 99, 89, or TJ. Nope. He flips over AA. Thanks for the 200 BBs on my overbet trying to protect my hand against inside straight draws that fit into your range.
In tournaments it's a totally different beast, until the players remaining is <1 table I play very tightly, and have a very narrow raising range, and even slimmer limping range, and a nice tight 3-betting range.
Some of the best poker players say poker is a game of patience. I used to believe that meant waiting until they had a strong starting hand that held up. Let's face it, we could go through 2 buyins worth of blinds at a full table before we see a strong hand hold-up. I much prefer the term patience meaning "waiting for a hand better than your opponents."
And that patience has treated me well. I don't have a long enough sample to swear by it, because I discovered this in the middle east where there are no casinos, but home on leave I played this game almost exclusively and it was not only incredibly fun, but I learned a lot and made some money, too.
Weregoat
Visionary
Silver Level
I wanna get into Omaha, actually.
Seems like a wild game.
Limit games don't interest me tremendously.
M
Marginal
Junior Member
Silver Level
Go for it, PLO is a very fun game but you need to be willing to get your money in with very thin edges.
Weregoat
Visionary
Silver Level
Indeed. I've played some very low stakes PLO and intended on playing some higher stakes PLO.
At heart I'm an action seeker so it seems like more of an action game than hold'em. I intended on trying it home on leave but leave was too short and I didn't do a lot of things I intended on doing.
Always after deployment though.
NCfoldem
Rock Star
Silver Level
Slow playing them will reduce their effectiveness, no question. However this is situational, depending on your table, the players, etc. It's never technically bad play to go all-in with Aces pre-flop, although there are times you may not want to do. I've actually folded Aces when play was hand to hand. I'm not proud of it ....
tomh7795
Visionary
Silver Level
Are men your type then?
You need to expect to lose with aces sometimes but you'll win more then you'll lose in the long run
et1961
Rock Star
Silver Level
favorite hands
Did anyone else ever notice something about favorite hands that players play? What I am about to say has no statistacle merit or logic backing it up at all. Many players have their favorite hands that would allmost rather have than aces.
Doyle Brunson likes 10-2, since he won the wsop with those cards. He continues to play those cards with a good success rate. My wife likes 9-10 and wins many pots with those cards. I personally like JQ and win 90% of the time with them.
Now I have tried Doyle's 10-2 and my wifes 9-10, but rarely ever hit with those cards. Why is it one players favorite cards will do well for them, but they don't work for another player? There seems to be no logic for this, but you have to have noticed this on the felt.
Did anyone else ever notice something about favorite hands that players play? What I am about to say has no statistacle merit or logic backing it up at all. Many players have their favorite hands that would allmost rather have than aces.
Doyle Brunson likes 10-2, since he won the wsop with those cards. He continues to play those cards with a good success rate. My wife likes 9-10 and wins many pots with those cards. I personally like JQ and win 90% of the time with them.
Now I have tried Doyle's 10-2 and my wifes 9-10, but rarely ever hit with those cards. Why is it one players favorite cards will do well for them, but they don't work for another player? There seems to be no logic for this, but you have to have noticed this on the felt.
et1961
Rock Star
Silver Level
Folding Aces
I can only remeber one time where I actually folded Aces. I remeber many times that I should have and could never let them go. I was in a tourny with AA and was raised to put me all-in. To call would have made me go out on the bubble and not cash in the tourney. Even though my chances were great of winning the pot I decided to fold to ensure myself of a cash and having plenty of chips still left to advance myself further in the tourney. The tourney was a $50 tourney on lline and the chances of making some serious money was still there. I think I made the right decision because I ended up cashing for $650. Had I called maybe I would have had enough chips to win the tourney, but then again I could have been out with empty pockets. Did I make the correct decision?
I can only remeber one time where I actually folded Aces. I remeber many times that I should have and could never let them go. I was in a tourny with AA and was raised to put me all-in. To call would have made me go out on the bubble and not cash in the tourney. Even though my chances were great of winning the pot I decided to fold to ensure myself of a cash and having plenty of chips still left to advance myself further in the tourney. The tourney was a $50 tourney on lline and the chances of making some serious money was still there. I think I made the right decision because I ended up cashing for $650. Had I called maybe I would have had enough chips to win the tourney, but then again I could have been out with empty pockets. Did I make the correct decision?