LuckyChippy
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
P
PlayerPlayerAA
Rock Star
Silver Level
jdeliverer
Legend
Silver Level
No, this is wrong. Even on the bubble, in a large MTT chip:equity is roughly 1:1. It's usually only at or near the final table that you can use ICM calculations.
S
swingro
Legend
Silver Level
Never fold them. But this is not the problem. Yesterday i took 3 bad beats with aces and i remembered this thread. Cash table 6 max 1/2c .
Pocket Aces. Raised 5 BB every time preflop.
I raised the pot untill the river every time.
One guy , the same guy every time followed me untill the river and got streights .
The reality was so cruel that i just stayed for half an hour to regain my composture. Just laughed a lot, closed the computer after the third time and went to sleep.
I knew he had nothing untill the river. I could go all-in after the flop and he would still call like he did with others.
I do not think poker is rigged. Never will. But i think there are ppl there that eat cr.a.p in the morning to get lucky later.
Pocket Aces. Raised 5 BB every time preflop.
I raised the pot untill the river every time.
One guy , the same guy every time followed me untill the river and got streights .
The reality was so cruel that i just stayed for half an hour to regain my composture. Just laughed a lot, closed the computer after the third time and went to sleep.
I knew he had nothing untill the river. I could go all-in after the flop and he would still call like he did with others.
I do not think poker is rigged. Never will. But i think there are ppl there that eat cr.a.p in the morning to get lucky later.
jazzaxe
Legend
Silver Level
Best thing about Pocket Aces:
You get all in preflop against 1 other player who calls you.
Next best thing about Pocket Aces:
You raise about 10% of your stack and get called by another player
You hit an A on the flop and get player to call an all in bet.
If any of these things happen, do not change anything in your game. You are playing the best edge in Holdem.
The bad news is AA post-flop unimproved is an ordinary hand. If you were stupid enough to slowplay preflop you let a lot of inferior hands in to draw against you postflop. I would play these cards strong on a ragged flop. If the board is paired, suited or connected high and you are seeing a lot of raising, it is time to say sayonara to your rockets. This is the toughest part about playing AA: folding them.
You get all in preflop against 1 other player who calls you.
Next best thing about Pocket Aces:
You raise about 10% of your stack and get called by another player
You hit an A on the flop and get player to call an all in bet.
If any of these things happen, do not change anything in your game. You are playing the best edge in Holdem.
The bad news is AA post-flop unimproved is an ordinary hand. If you were stupid enough to slowplay preflop you let a lot of inferior hands in to draw against you postflop. I would play these cards strong on a ragged flop. If the board is paired, suited or connected high and you are seeing a lot of raising, it is time to say sayonara to your rockets. This is the toughest part about playing AA: folding them.
S
Skaplun
Rock Star
Silver Level
ok, I didn't read the last 4 pages. but to put things in prospective:
Aces are 80% against any hand. you know what that means?
out of 1000 times you have AA, you will lose 200 times. hell that sounds like a lot? Welcome to poker, you dont win every hand. you are a statistical favorite in some.
Aces are 80% against any hand. you know what that means?
out of 1000 times you have AA, you will lose 200 times. hell that sounds like a lot? Welcome to poker, you dont win every hand. you are a statistical favorite in some.
Weregoat
Visionary
Silver Level
Well, you didn't read the last four pages, but the majority of the discussion is about homosexuality, people eating poop for breakfast, bad beats, and playing aces post flop.
Playing aces preflop are the easiest thing in the world to do. However if you're always sitting at 200 BBs when you get AA, how often are you going to double up? Very rarely. Let's say 50 times for the sake of your example. So I've doubled up 50 times, stacked off and lost 200, and won a small to moderate amount of chips by my aces holding up 750 times.
The problem isn't the difficulty of playing them preflop (when you're most assuredly ahead), it's folding them when you're beat. And I can think of one instance when I did it. It was tough, but it was right.
I can also think of a million instances (well, more like 7-8) where they got cracked and I lost upwards of 200 BBs. I can think of two to three instances where I doubled up, or *sigh* knocked out a short stack with a set for a whole 30 BBs.
Weregoat
Visionary
Silver Level
Hands like 10-2, 9-T, JQ, you can still fold when you're behind. So you don't lose as much money. It takes a lot to make an average player fold AA.
Pascal-lf
Legend
Silver Level
You don't win 90% of the time with QJ. Show me PT3 % over a large sample and I'll believe you.
The difference with aces is that everyone remembers the bad beats because they forget they aren't 100% favourites.
brank
Back in!
Silver Level
FYP. Dont mean to continue flamin this dude but seriously....
Also, Doyle doesnt like T2 at all. He spits(pretends to) on them after he tries to play them. He has stated that he has lost a lot of money playing that hand since he won the wsop 2x with them.
K
Kidsoldja
Enthusiast
Silver Level
wouldnt it depend on how many players are in the pot with you? i mean AA is a great hand to start with, but its not great when you have 3 or 4 other people on the board with flush or str8 draws, thats an easy fold any day for me.
suit2please
Visionary
Silver Level
How the hell you end up in a 4-5 way pot with pocket Aces is beyond me. Of course in freerolls and micro micro stakes there are some crazy calling stations.
B
Bovinity
Visionary
Silver Level
I guess I'm lucky, I have no problem coming off of my pocket aces if I get a whiff of a possible straight or flush or pretty much anything halfway decent and a strong better in the pot.
Maybe I'm a little too cautious about that sort of thing, but it's just a pair. I'm not stacking myself off with just one pair.
Maybe I'm a little too cautious about that sort of thing, but it's just a pair. I'm not stacking myself off with just one pair.
NeverFold
Rock Star
Silver Level
My favorite pocket pair cards is JJ. Everytime i had JJ, 1 always won a poker table game.
PattyR
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
My favorite pocket pair cards is JJ. Everytime i had JJ, 1 always won a poker table game.
i do not believe you at all
2
2wreckless
Rising Star
Bronze Level
It's simple,I'd love to have pocket aces every hand.But,here's the deal,if your playing in free-rolls or even micro's your always going to find those talented idiots staying with say j3,k2 57 and somehow (especially on certain sites) they seem to pull off a huge upset and you lose just a ton of money or chips(usually happens on the river btw)
But all in all you should win with your rockets more than lose with them.so,case closed..always love em'
But all in all you should win with your rockets more than lose with them.so,case closed..always love em'
NeverFold
Rock Star
Silver Level
i do not believe you at all
It's really true.
Maybe a coincident or pure luck but every time i had these JJ pair,
i won in the poker table (online)
okeedokalee
Glory To Ukraine
Loyaler
Had AA against K/10s today 4/1 agtainst, and the K/10 hit a straight, crippled me to 400 chips fought back and won the freeroll.
Getting Aces rolled just makes me all the more determined.
They do tend to get beat often though, a fish will call with an inferior hand, just expect the worst.
Getting Aces rolled just makes me all the more determined.
They do tend to get beat often though, a fish will call with an inferior hand, just expect the worst.
Weregoat
Visionary
Silver Level
They don't get beat often, but when you're behind unless you are used to foldinig when you are behind, it's hard to see the raise as anythin other than a bluff.
I guess deep down my problem is I get caught up in my aces and don't pay enough attention to the story my opponents tell me about there hand.
And when I do pay attention, I rarely believe them. In live games though, there are ways to find out.
I guess deep down my problem is I get caught up in my aces and don't pay enough attention to the story my opponents tell me about there hand.
And when I do pay attention, I rarely believe them. In live games though, there are ways to find out.
okeedokalee
Glory To Ukraine
Loyaler
What size raise will keep the majority out, I've tried right up to all-in but still get multi-callers frequently, how do you discourage the stations hitting their runner runner flushes and straights.
Applies to pocket kings and queens as well.
slycbnew
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
fwiw, I like weregoat's posts - but I cringed when this was posted almost 2 months ago.
His point, I think, is a good one - it can be difficult to play AA postflop, while other hands are much easier - though of course those other hands are not as profitable over the long run (partly why they're easier to play - if you miss the flop, you generally fold, since they're low value unimproved).
However, I'm always amazed by how much traffic any thread titled "JJ/QQ/KK/AK are overrated/difficult/suck/whatever" can generate and feared that this thread would still be alive at the beginning of May. And of course today is the last day of May, and it's still kicking.
Random thoughts:
We all know that multiway AA/KK/QQ isn't nearly as strong as HU, so obviously we're a whole lot happier to be HU than multiway, and we're open raising/3betting/raising over limpers preflop to encourage getting HU.
That doesn't mean, though, that we ought to be raising in such a way w these hands that we're just going all in, or making a raise that is simply a huge steal, unless stacks are short - at 100bb's deep, that'd be silly unless we know that Villains are willing to stack off. If we're at 20bb's or less, then of course shoving makes sense (though it's exploitable if you're not shoving a wider range than that).
There's an entitlement problem w KK/AA in particular, a sense that these hands are such prohibitive favorites preflop that anyone stupid enough to call us when we have these hands deserve to lose their stacks, and we deserve to win their stacks. Postflop can be hard to play w these hands, because there's a good chance that others will bet hands worse than ours (draws, top pair) that we should be calling/shoving over as well as a good chance that substantial action means we're crushed (sets etc.). Reads on other players are critical here, as well as hand reading skills.
Siginificant multiway action on the flop should tell you at the very least that you're in potential trouble w your AA's. Depending on your reads on the situation (other players, board) you may be better off folding and looking for a better spot.
There's also a "fear factor" (don't know a better way to put it) that leads to concerns about someone calling pf, flop, and turn to try to catch a runner/runner winner. BUT we actually want them to do this, and want to be stuffing the pot w as much money as we think they'll call to attempt this. Sure, we're going to lose money when they hit, but think of how uncommon it is to actually hit (you're not calling substantial pf, flop, and turn bets to hit runner/runner, are you? why not?) and how much you'll win when it doesn't.
We're not trying to win every hand, nor are we entitled to win every time we raise preflop. Sometimes you do have to fold. If a tight passive player calls me pf when I'm holding AA and he check/raises the turn, and I'm unimproved, I'm going to have to think of a reason to continue in the hand more than I'm going to have to think of a reason to fold.
If you use either HEM or PT3 and have a significant number of hands played (say, 10K+, in which you will have been dealt AA somewhere around 47 times - fwiw 10K is actually not considered significant for most purposes, including this), look at the ranking of hands you've played by winrate and by $won. Seriously, if the highest ranked hand in both categories is NOT AA, there's something wrong with the way you're playing them. If you would rather be dealt any other hand, you're being superstitious.
/end rambling post
His point, I think, is a good one - it can be difficult to play AA postflop, while other hands are much easier - though of course those other hands are not as profitable over the long run (partly why they're easier to play - if you miss the flop, you generally fold, since they're low value unimproved).
However, I'm always amazed by how much traffic any thread titled "JJ/QQ/KK/AK are overrated/difficult/suck/whatever" can generate and feared that this thread would still be alive at the beginning of May. And of course today is the last day of May, and it's still kicking.
Random thoughts:
We all know that multiway AA/KK/QQ isn't nearly as strong as HU, so obviously we're a whole lot happier to be HU than multiway, and we're open raising/3betting/raising over limpers preflop to encourage getting HU.
That doesn't mean, though, that we ought to be raising in such a way w these hands that we're just going all in, or making a raise that is simply a huge steal, unless stacks are short - at 100bb's deep, that'd be silly unless we know that Villains are willing to stack off. If we're at 20bb's or less, then of course shoving makes sense (though it's exploitable if you're not shoving a wider range than that).
There's an entitlement problem w KK/AA in particular, a sense that these hands are such prohibitive favorites preflop that anyone stupid enough to call us when we have these hands deserve to lose their stacks, and we deserve to win their stacks. Postflop can be hard to play w these hands, because there's a good chance that others will bet hands worse than ours (draws, top pair) that we should be calling/shoving over as well as a good chance that substantial action means we're crushed (sets etc.). Reads on other players are critical here, as well as hand reading skills.
Siginificant multiway action on the flop should tell you at the very least that you're in potential trouble w your AA's. Depending on your reads on the situation (other players, board) you may be better off folding and looking for a better spot.
There's also a "fear factor" (don't know a better way to put it) that leads to concerns about someone calling pf, flop, and turn to try to catch a runner/runner winner. BUT we actually want them to do this, and want to be stuffing the pot w as much money as we think they'll call to attempt this. Sure, we're going to lose money when they hit, but think of how uncommon it is to actually hit (you're not calling substantial pf, flop, and turn bets to hit runner/runner, are you? why not?) and how much you'll win when it doesn't.
We're not trying to win every hand, nor are we entitled to win every time we raise preflop. Sometimes you do have to fold. If a tight passive player calls me pf when I'm holding AA and he check/raises the turn, and I'm unimproved, I'm going to have to think of a reason to continue in the hand more than I'm going to have to think of a reason to fold.
If you use either HEM or PT3 and have a significant number of hands played (say, 10K+, in which you will have been dealt AA somewhere around 47 times - fwiw 10K is actually not considered significant for most purposes, including this), look at the ranking of hands you've played by winrate and by $won. Seriously, if the highest ranked hand in both categories is NOT AA, there's something wrong with the way you're playing them. If you would rather be dealt any other hand, you're being superstitious.
/end rambling post
suit2please
Visionary
Silver Level
What size raise will keep the majority out, I've tried right up to all-in but still get multi-callers frequently, how do you discourage the stations hitting their runner runner flushes and straights.
Applies to pocket kings and queens as well.
Im guessing you are playing freerolls and micro micro stakes?
I try not to do anything different when I have a good hand, stealing, or bluffing. Standard 3x-4x raises unless everyone feels like limping, then maybe something close to 3x + (0.5x-1x per limper). A 3x raise with 4 or 5 limpers already means that if 1 of them calls the rest can easily follow and is asking for a multiway pot.
So I guess their is no real "size" bet to keep the calling stations from calling, but you don't want to be always betting them out anyway.