Honeymoon or Bust!

[John A]

Talley so far; 9 hands,
Hero is button in 8 of them
CutOff in 1. (QJo)

Question I have is how often are you folding the button even if you could open the action?

Just peeked, my button UO PFR is 51.7%. So 48.3% of the time I'm folding. Not that aggressive I don't think.

 

[John A]

John, amazing thread, Im learning more every time I read one of your hands.
Problem I have is that I play 2nl-10nl, can I make moves like the ones you do, or is there no point getting fancy at my levels, and just stick to ABC. Ive played up to 200pl omaha, but withdrew money, so now grinding micro again.

Thanks. I think we're all learning (including me), so it's fun.

Yes, at those stakes you want to get REALLY good solid fundamentals down. I can't tell you how many players I've seen that think of course they have solid fundamentals, but just have gigantic titanic like leaks in their games. Pre-flop, pre-flop, pre-flop. I don't care what you think you know, you should be an absolute master of what hands, and most importantly WHY to play them when.

I'd say at 10NL, you might be able to make some basic pre-flop re-steals, and a couple of well times bluffs if you find the right opponents. Simple things like recognizing regs who are ISOing loose against weak players, and re-stealing from them with hands like K7o in position. Things like that you can do at those stakes if you're reading the table well.

 

[John A]

Amen!

John, this is a great thread for me because I've been really feeling like the play at US sites is different (tighter with lots of nitty regs-- at least at 6max Merge). I've wanted to see whether the build a bankroll can work in the US



OK. Enough inquisition. Thank you for taking time to post this here. It is greatly appreciated.
Now I'm going outside to try and ID some of the local water birds!

Yes, games are tighter an nittier, because those networks aren't doing a good job of advertising to every day joe's.

Q:
What size roll did you start with and did you start out at 100nl or lower?

Don't try this at home. I had $500 on one site and started playing with 10-5 buy-ins, and got 1k on another site. So I was under rolled, but wasn't super concerned. I have played and beaten up to 10/20nl in the past (pre lack friday), and I've logged a few million hands at 100-600nl.

What date did you start and how many hands have you been getting in on average daily/weekly?

I started in early November, and I think I'm getting about 15k hands a month. Not a ton simply because I run a business, have 2 kids, and I'm planning a wedding (and this is my first time getting married despite already having kids ). Just enough to stay current and sharp.


Someone asked but I didn't see an answer- are there days of the week or times of the day that you think are softer?

I must have missed this. In my experience each site is different. And it also depends on their marketing strategies. I was on a site that it would be super soft at 4-7pm PST (later at night for the Euro market), and then would tighten up as it got later. But then they closed down the market for those areas and it changed. So I think you just have to pay attention to the site you're on and how many table are active. "Usually" the more active tables, the softer the time.


Have you played any micro stakes (10 or 25 NL) and if so, what are the differences you see from 100/200 (specifically at these US sites)?

No, I haven't played any 10/25nl. I have done videos on those in the past, but quite some time ago really. Maybe even pre-black friday. In general though you're just going to be dealing with less fish, and regs will be much more competent and aggressive. So have to make less and less mistakes.


Over the hands you've played, what are your biggest swings?

I have about 30k hands logged from this honeymoon adventure. I have more hands than that during this time, but only these are actually logged. Probably only a couple of buy-ins so far as far as swings. My winnings line looks like a 45 degree slope honestly. I'll see if I can post it.

Given the small player pool, are you ever able to table select?

I try and table select across both sites I'm on. I'm not playing for ego, I'm playing for money, so I will leave a table if it looks to have become so-so and look for better tables. Everyone has to know why they are playing, and if you're doing it from money, then you want to play against the weakest field possible obviously.

Are you mostly encountering regs?

Yes. Pretty sure everyone at any stakes of 10nl+ probably is.

Are you multi-tabling? How many tables?

Yes, but I'm playing far less tables. 5-6 right now on average. Not because I want to, just because it's the most profitable amount across the sites I'm playing on with my style. I play a few more hands than the average reg would I guess. Pre-black friday I would average 7-9 tables.

 

[Deco]

Value range = KK+/33/99 ,draws and air.

When we are mostly 4betting KK+ preflop does a value range this thin not make our bluffs very exploitable?

 

[John A]

 

[John A]

When we are mostly 4betting KK+ preflop does a value range this thin not make our bluffs very exploitable?

I'll answer your question with a question... if you were in villains spot, are you just eliminating those hands from my range? Secondly, based on the Btn v blind dynamic, how often is this flop hitting opponent for him to want to stack off? He has to call my air range by committing himself to the pot.


I guess that all depends on how often we're 4-betting those hands doesn't it?

 

[KerouacsDog]

Yes, good question, and this brings up an important point about exploitative play. No way I'm playing every hand this way, or really creatively. Too much of one thing, and some of the better regs are going to adjust and exploit my play. Finding that sweet spot of doing it just enough at the BEST POSSIBLE times is key.

To tie that in to your next question, what makes me decide when to defend. There's an ideal scenario I always look for first, and then scale it back from there depending on several factors. If I've been super active lately, I'm not going to make a really creative/aggressive play unless my read is that this opponent isn't adjusting. There's always a certain TC (tension count, something we talk about on pokerzion a lot) count at the table you need to be aware of. TC count gets too high, you need to scale back your aggressive/creative play because someone at the table will snap.

I'm always first looking at my opponents tendencies, and any notes/reads I have on them. See if there's something I think I can exploit at some point in the hand. Chip stack, position are the basics... always good to have, but not always critical when you do have a good read/note. So it has a lot to do with flow of the game and my read OR something obvious that I feel I can exploit about the person. Simple example, someone is a PFP (pre-flop player... you'll see them a lot at these kinds of stakes). They are 3-betting a good amount, but have low or really high c-bet in 3-bet pot%'s. I know in this case they aren't too sure of what they are doing, and in a lot of cases where 3bet% and c-bet% are high, I know I can call and raise a lot of flops small against them to get folds (like you've seen in this thread) because their pre-flop range will be wide and weak when/if it does hit a flop. And it's not super easy to hit a flop well enough to want to stack off in a 3-bet pot if you aren't sure what someone else's range is.

To your last set of questions, yes, of course it's profitable, but it's very much about making sure you are really reading the spots well. It does take some practice and a bit of a learning curve. Once you know what to ideally look for, you can spot lots of profitable spots to play exploitative poker. You just don't want to over do it or get carried away when you're first learning or you'll end up spewing buy-ins away.

cool answer

Thanks. I think we're all learning (including me), so it's fun.

Yes, at those stakes you want to get REALLY good solid fundamentals down. I can't tell you how many players I've seen that think of course they have solid fundamentals, but just have gigantic titanic like leaks in their games. Pre-flop, pre-flop, pre-flop. I don't care what you think you know, you should be an absolute master of what hands, and most importantly WHY to play them when.

I'd say at 10NL, you might be able to make some basic pre-flop re-steals, and a couple of well times bluffs if you find the right opponents. Simple things like recognizing regs who are ISOing loose against weak players, and re-stealing from them with hands like K7o in position. Things like that you can do at those stakes if you're reading the table well.

ok cool answer

Yes, games are tighter an nittier, because those networks aren't doing a good job of advertising to every day joe's.

Q:
What size roll did you start with and did you start out at 100nl or lower?

Don't try this at home. I had $500 on one site and started playing with 10-5 buy-ins, and got 1k on another site. So I was under rolled, but wasn't super concerned. I have played and beaten up to 10/20nl in the past (pre lack friday), and I've logged a few million hands at 100-600nl.

What date did you start and how many hands have you been getting in on average daily/weekly?

I started in early November, and I think I'm getting about 15k hands a month. Not a ton simply because I run a business, have 2 kids, and I'm planning a wedding (and this is my first time getting married despite already having kids ). Just enough to stay current and sharp.


Someone asked but I didn't see an answer- are there days of the week or times of the day that you think are softer?

I must have missed this. In my experience each site is different. And it also depends on their marketing strategies. I was on a site that it would be super soft at 4-7pm PST (later at night for the Euro market), and then would tighten up as it got later. But then they closed down the market for those areas and it changed. So I think you just have to pay attention to the site you're on and how many table are active. "Usually" the more active tables, the softer the time.


Have you played any micro stakes (10 or 25 NL) and if so, what are the differences you see from 100/200 (specifically at these US sites)?

No, I haven't played any 10/25nl. I have done videos on those in the past, but quite some time ago really. Maybe even pre-black friday. In general though you're just going to be dealing with less fish, and regs will be much more competent and aggressive. So have to make less and less mistakes.


Over the hands you've played, what are your biggest swings?

I have about 30k hands logged from this honeymoon adventure. I have more hands than that during this time, but only these are actually logged. Probably only a couple of buy-ins so far as far as swings. My winnings line looks like a 45 degree slope honestly. I'll see if I can post it.

Given the small player pool, are you ever able to table select?

I try and table select across both sites I'm on. I'm not playing for ego, I'm playing for money, so I will leave a table if it looks to have become so-so and look for better tables. Everyone has to know why they are playing, and if you're doing it from money, then you want to play against the weakest field possible obviously.

Are you mostly encountering regs?

Yes. Pretty sure everyone at any stakes of 10nl+ probably is.

Are you multi-tabling? How many tables?

Yes, but I'm playing far less tables. 5-6 right now on average. Not because I want to, just because it's the most profitable amount across the sites I'm playing on with my style. I play a few more hands than the average reg would I guess. Pre-black friday I would average 7-9 tables.

excellent answers thankyou

When we are mostly 4betting KK+ preflop does a value range this thin not make our bluffs very exploitable?

just wow

I'll answer your question with a question... if you were in villains spot, are you just eliminating those hands from my range? Secondly, based on the Btn v blind dynamic, how often is this flop hitting opponent for him to want to stack off? He has to call my air range by committing himself to the pot.


I guess that all depends on how often we're 4-betting those hands doesn't it?

great answer, thanks John

 

[Kenzie 96]

Sub'd.

Nice thread, FYI I paid for my own honeymoon the exact same way. Unfortunately it was 2008, and I have never gotten my roll as high since.

Maybe the roll isn't back up, but, John will be a very lucky man if his marriage works out as well as yours. :cheers:
Thanks for this thread John, good to be reminded now & then how much there is to learn about this game.

 

[KerouacsDog]

Maybe the roll isn't back up, but, John will be a very lucky man if his marriage works out as well as yours. :cheers:
Thanks for this thread John, good to be reminded now & then how much there is to learn about this game.

this.

 

[Deco]

I'll answer your question with a question... if you were in villains spot, are you just eliminating those hands from my range? Secondly, based on the Btn v blind dynamic, how often is this flop hitting opponent for him to want to stack off? He has to call my air range by committing himself to the pot.


I guess that all depends on how often we're 4-betting those hands doesn't it?

Yes and I'd be negating sets somewhat as I'd expect them to flat.

Even with kk+ completly unnegated we still only hold 18 value combos when you have a very wide flatting range and raising aq here alone puts 16 combos of air a villain could profitably shove over.

I see this line taken alot by people I know definitly do not flat kk+ what im unsure of is what air would make a good shoves ive talked with better pkayers than myself on these spots who recomend flatting ak against the flop raise here.

 

[Deco]

ive talked with better pkayers than myself on these spots who recomend flatting ak against the flop raise here.

This was the similar hand where I had this discussion.
God damn my grammer is appauling when I post from my phone.

I can't bring myself to raise these spots for the same reason I wouldn't raise J72r CO vs btn. Does the pot being 3bet change this at all or do you regulary bluff very dry boards? Why did you pick AQ in particular what non-made hands are you floating?

 

[John A]

Yes and I'd be negating sets somewhat as I'd expect them to flat.

Even with kk+ completly unnegated we still only hold 18 value combos when you have a very wide flatting range and raising aq here alone puts 16 combos of air a villain could profitably shove over.

I see this line taken alot by people I know definitly do not flat kk+ what im unsure of is what air would make a good shoves ive talked with better pkayers than myself on these spots who recomend flatting ak against the flop raise here.

I actually flat a lot of big hands, and speculative hands. That's what makes it a bit more difficult to make out my range.

But that aside, shoving AQ/AK for value isn't very straight forward. If we really broke down complete air versus draw+value, villain isn't doing that great on a shove. And that's the power of position in a nutshell. FYI, the more competent my opponent, the more value hands I am raising in that spot or conversely, the weaker they are the more air hands I'm raising.

Your example hand isn't a good fit. Paired board, slightly different dynamic. When you're stacking off w/ A high you want to be very confident on why you're doing it. Something like this, where you're reads need to be spot on (this versus a good reg).

No-Limit Hold'em, $10 BB (6 handed) Hand History converter Courtesy of PokerZion.com

saw flop|saw showdown

MP ($627)
Hero ($1161)
Button ($1955.50)
SB ($1549)
BB ($1410)
UTG ($1177)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Qc, As.
2 folds</font>, Hero raises to $40</font>, Button raises to $140</font>, 2 folds</font>, Hero raises to $370</font>, Button calls $230.

Flop: ($755) 3d, 7s, 2d (2 players)</font>
Hero bets $310</font>, Button raises to $1360</font>, Hero calls $481 (All-In).

Turn: ($2906) 3c</font>

River: ($2906) 5s (2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: $2906

Results in white below:
Hero has Qc As (one pair, threes).
Button has 6d Jd (one pair, threes).
Outcome: Hero wins $2337.

 

[bz54321]

I actually flat a lot of big hands, and speculative hands. That's what makes it a bit more difficult to make out my range.

But that aside, shoving AQ/AK for value isn't very straight forward. If we really broke down complete air versus draw+value, villain isn't doing that great on a shove. And that's the power of position in a nutshell. FYI, the more competent my opponent, the more value hands I am raising in that spot or conversely, the weaker they are the more air hands I'm raising.

Your example hand isn't a good fit. Paired board, slightly different dynamic. When you're stacking off w/ A high you want to be very confident on why you're doing it. Something like this, where you're reads need to be spot on (this versus a good reg).

No-Limit Hold'em, $10 BB (6 handed) Hand History converter Courtesy of PokerZion.com

saw flop|saw showdown

MP ($627)
Hero ($1161)
Button ($1955.50)
SB ($1549)
BB ($1410)
UTG ($1177)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Qc, As.
2 folds</font>, Hero raises to $40</font>, Button raises to $140</font>, 2 folds</font>, Hero raises to $370</font>, Button calls $230.

Flop: ($755) 3d, 7s, 2d (2 players)</font>
Hero bets $310</font>, Button raises to $1360</font>, Hero calls $481 (All-In).

Turn: ($2906) 3c</font>

River: ($2906) 5s (2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: $2906

Results in white below:
Hero has Qc As (one pair, threes).
Button has 6d Jd (one pair, threes).
Outcome: Hero wins $2337.

WOW just WOW

I have done this kind of thing and it seems like every time my opponent catches something. Would you be happy with this play if your opponent had caught something and won the hand?

 

[WVHillbilly]

WOW just WOW

I have done this kind of thing and it seems like every time my opponent catches something. Would you be happy with this play if your opponent had caught something and won the hand?

Of course he would. Once you get your $$s in good, your job is done. Concerning yourself with the results is not a good thing.

 

[bz54321]

Of course he would. Once you get your $$s in good, your job is done. Concerning yourself with the results is not a good thing.

But how.... I agonize over losing flips were I started good. After losing this hand I would go put it into the hand calc and sure enough you were behind when you went all-in. So I would be thinking ya that was a stupid play, but check you out. A lot of the time the calc will say I had the best hand even and I just cant stop thinking about what I could have done differently. Maybe I should just except that I am unlucky and move on.

Thanks for the reply WVJohnny.......

 

[WVHillbilly]

But how.... I agonize over losing flips were I started good. After losing this hand I would go put it into the hand calc and sure enough you were behind when you went all-in. So I would be thinking ya that was a stupid play, but check you out. A lot of the time the calc will say I had the best hand even and I just cant stop thinking about what I could have done differently. Maybe I should just except that I am unlucky and move on.

Thanks for the reply WVJohnny.......

Who's Johnny?

Anyway, you should accept the fact that there is no such thing as unlucky and then move on.

 

[bz54321]

Who's Johnny?

Anyway, you should accept the fact that there is no such thing as unlucky and then move on.

Well unlucky for you I am not moving on until you ban me......

 

[WVHillbilly]

Well unlucky for you I am not moving on until you ban me......

Such an odd response to a genuine answer. Honestly, the sooner you give up on being lucky/unlucky the better off your game (and mental state while playing) will be.

 

[vinylspiros]

Such an odd response to a genuine answer. Honestly, the sooner you give up on being lucky/unlucky the better off your game (and mental state while playing) will be.

i agree very much with this.its not about luck its about how we stir up things to create our luck.

 

[John A]

WOW just WOW

I have done this kind of thing and it seems like every time my opponent catches something. Would you be happy with this play if your opponent had caught something and won the hand?

I think like WV said, you just want to focus on the quality of your decisions. Even if I got it in bad here, I'd still feel good about my thought process. And of course when I get it in good, and get sucked out on I get pissed an kick as many pregnant cats as possible.

But seriously it's about quality of the thought process. I'll annotate some more hands in here, but I'm also going to be doing it and video stuff on here for free too. So hopefully you can follow both:

http://acepokersolutions.com/Free_poker_training.php

Trying to put together some good free content for micro/small stakes players to learn from without having to invest a ton of dollars. Still building the content up, but check it out and please offer feedback/needs.

 

[KerouacsDog]

that hand is just wow, thanks for sharing John

 

[Goathair]

Take it easy on the cats!

 

[vinylspiros]

LMFAO about kicking the cats. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

[bz54321]

I think like WV said, you just want to focus on the quality of your decisions. Even if I got it in bad here, I'd still feel good about my thought process. And of course when I get it in good, and get sucked out on I get pissed an kick as many pregnant cats as possible.

Thanks for the response I am enjoying the thread.

So this is my problem how do you judge the quality of your decisions. Like how can I say I made the correct decision when I lost and the hand calc says I was -10% to win. When should I say well it was a good move even though I lost? Or say that was not a good decision when I won? What rules or standards do you apply when judging your decision making process for a hand?

 

[dj11]

Thanks for the response I am enjoying the thread.

So this is my problem how do you judge the quality of your decisions. Like how can I say I made the correct decision when I lost and the hand calc says I was -10% to win. When should I say well it was a good move even though I lost? Or say that was not a good decision when I won? What rules or standards do you apply when judging your decision making process for a hand?

Superior question! +++4