The Art of Bluffing (Day 11 Course Discussion)

I

iveyfan

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 14, 2016
Total posts
701
Awards
4
Chips
0
I think that a lot of recreational players do not think about representing specific hands when they do bluff and that's where they get into a lot of trouble. If you are repping Ax or a pocket pair for example, but you normally raise with that hand pf, you are immediately giving yourself away.
 
Katie Dozier

Katie Dozier

Poker Expert
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 2, 2010
Total posts
1,331
Awards
2
Chips
0
I think that a lot of recreational players do not think about representing specific hands when they do bluff and that's where they get into a lot of trouble. If you are repping Ax or a pocket pair for example, but you normally raise with that hand pf, you are immediately giving yourself away.
This is very true--so important to have a grasp of what your opponent is most likely thinking in order to make profitable bluffs! :)
 
zam220

zam220

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Sep 20, 2014
Total posts
3,154
Awards
12
Chips
110
bluffing is what you like about poker when it passes! I try to bluff rarely, only when my rally looks strong, I bluff!I think it’s better to bluff when the blinds are big and antes are placed, and when the blinds are small I don’t see the point of bluffing!
 
C

Coinuss

Rock Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Mar 2, 2020
Total posts
386
Awards
1
Chips
63
I like this chapter, it helps me improve my bluffing skills, and I see many places where I should bluff on the river, but I got scared and gave up. In many situations like this https://www.cardschat.com/replayer/124DnXN7L, I have no showdown value and scare the bluff river, although the villain has unimproved draw.
I don’t understand river bets to get a fold with an ace high.
Thanks Colin and Katie.
 
Katie Dozier

Katie Dozier

Poker Expert
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 2, 2010
Total posts
1,331
Awards
2
Chips
0
I like this chapter, it helps me improve my bluffing skills, and I see many places where I should bluff on the river, but I got scared and gave up. In many situations like this https://www.cardschat.com/replayer/124DnXN7L, I have no showdown value and scare the bluff river, although the villain has unimproved draw.
I don’t understand river bets to get a fold with an ace high.
Thanks Colin and Katie.
I agree with your decision to give up on winning the hand and electing to not bluff the river there. Villain happened to show down with one of the few holdings he could reasonably have that were better than your hand but likely would've folded if he bet. Given the action, I think even Q-high would be unlikely to fold, and any kind of hand he has has not been significantly impacted by the river due to the relative strength of even a high-card hand. So even though you're at the bottom of your range, you aren't representing much are likely to be called very wide--and those factors would also make me want to check/give up on the hand.

If I may, in the future I'd suggest folding the 53o pre-flop unless you have (as you certainly may have :) )a read that the player is playing very tight. I don't fold a lot of hands when I am first to open in the small blind, but the 53o is among them unless I have a read on my opponent that makes me want to play otherwise.

Hope this helps and thanks for posting the hand :)
 
bruno13xs

bruno13xs

Legend
Platinum Level
Joined
Apr 30, 2018
Total posts
1,571
Awards
4
BR
Chips
113
Bluffing is very important in poker, but I barely managed to master this art of bluffing, I see many players bluffing randomly and doing badly and losing a high can, before I bluff I realize at the table which player is easier to bluff on top of him so I don't lose in my bluff
 
marvinsytan

marvinsytan

I'm going to win The PokerStars Sunday Million
Bronze Level
Joined
Apr 22, 2020
Total posts
3,903
Awards
28
PH
Chips
143
Very good video, only now I know that there is an art in bluffing.
Observe the betting tendencies of opponent and pretend you have a good hand
Thanks for the video appreciate it on to the next
 
T

Tylerstevenson1919

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 10, 2020
Total posts
83
Chips
0
Bluffing

I don’t like to bluff but if I have to I’ll go all the way no matter what ! Ahahha :):mad:
 
Collin Moshman

Collin Moshman

Poker Expert
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 11, 2009
Total posts
1,317
Awards
3
Chips
2
Very good video, only now I know that there is an art in bluffing.
Observe the betting tendencies of opponent and pretend you have a good hand
Thanks for the video appreciate it on to the next


Thanks Marvin, I'm glad to hear you see the art in bluffing now :)

Credibly representing strong hands is a key aspect of it, definitely!
 
king11682

king11682

Kimba
Loyaler
Joined
Sep 5, 2017
Total posts
4,115
Awards
24
VE
Chips
391
Ideally, you should have a single opponent to bluff and other factors such as the late position since it is more advantageous than the early position when bluffing and also if the board presents a possible draw. But you have to avoid bluffing too much
 
Collin Moshman

Collin Moshman

Poker Expert
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 11, 2009
Total posts
1,317
Awards
3
Chips
2
Ideally, you should have a single opponent to bluff and other factors such as the late position since it is more advantageous than the early position when bluffing and also if the board presents a possible draw. But you have to avoid bluffing too much


That's a great point and a topic we plan to discuss more in the future -- there's an optimal bluffing frequency which depends on your bet-sizing. The more you bluff, the more frequently you're "supposed" to be bluffing. There are often very good reasons to change from this, but the concept applies that against almost all opponents it's easy to under or over-bluff.
 
H

hanio75

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 14, 2019
Total posts
45
Chips
18
Hello Collin I am impressed with this content "The Art of Bluffing", now many of the aggressions by the villains make sense. I begin to understand better the concept and application of the c bet and the difference of the semi bluff, as well as the need to recognize weak opponents and to make notes. I was also able to associate what was commented in the previous class about value bet and how the villain is behaving . From now on I will pay more attention to my bluffs and at the villains. I would like to ask the following question: How much percents should I program for a bluff? Or when I'm bluffing, should I go for the last try? In the semi bluff there is a percentage that I should bet and shouldn't I?
 
freddydr87

freddydr87

League Champion
Bronze Level
Joined
Dec 26, 2018
Total posts
4,186
Awards
32
Chips
358
This is one off the most dificult skills to master in poker,because a non sence bluff any one is capavel to do,but the bluff have to aim to spesific hand that the vilaind is traying to take to the showdonw because he knows he can beat your rangue there, so there is no pint in bluffing when u know the vilain dont fold or the board has inpact very strong in his rangue.
Also (for me is the most important reason) bluffing is nessesary to get paid when u have a monster hand that wanths to play by stack,lets say you only stack yourself with monster,vilain will have an easy fold,but iff you put a persentage off bluffes that cover the value that you louse when vilain folds you will be stracting max value from you monster hands either the vilain call or folds
 
Collin Moshman

Collin Moshman

Poker Expert
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 11, 2009
Total posts
1,317
Awards
3
Chips
2
Hello Collin I am impressed with this content "The Art of Bluffing", now many of the aggressions by the villains make sense. I begin to understand better the concept and application of the c bet and the difference of the semi bluff, as well as the need to recognize weak opponents and to make notes. I was also able to associate what was commented in the previous class about value bet and how the villain is behaving . From now on I will pay more attention to my bluffs and at the villains. I would like to ask the following question: How much percents should I program for a bluff? Or when I'm bluffing, should I go for the last try? In the semi bluff there is a percentage that I should bet and shouldn't I?

That's great to hear Hanio.

The question of what percent you should be bluffing vs value betting is a game theory one that depends on your bet-sizing. For example, betting full pot, you should (in theory) be bluffing 1/3 of the time. The reason is that your opponent will be getting 2:1 pot odds, so he needs to be right 1/3 of the time, which is exactly how often you're bluffing.

A simpler answer is just that it depends on your opponents. Against a calling station, you should rarely bluff. Against a tight-passive opponent, you can bluff a lot. When you're unsure against low-stakes opponents, stick with a strategy of mainly value-betting and just bluff if it's a nice spot for it :)
 
U

userme4321

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 14, 2020
Total posts
202
Chips
0
My answer was no to both. Villain had 2.75x Hero stack, called a raise, may have hit, don't think it was worth it. It is interesting how the A could have been a scare card. Still no outs, maybe a good time for Hero since he raised. It's hard not being at the table to get an idea of the play. Is Hero committed, was the first bet a semi-bluff or continuation? Was he willing to commit more towards the pot?
 
Last edited:
Katie Dozier

Katie Dozier

Poker Expert
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 2, 2010
Total posts
1,331
Awards
2
Chips
0
My answer was no to both. Villain had 2.75x Hero stack, called a raise, may have hit, don't think it was worth it. It is interesting how the A could have been a scare card. Still no outs, maybe a good time for Hero since he raised. It's hard not being at the table to get an idea of the play. Is Hero committed, was the first bet a semi-bluff or continuation? Was he willing to commit more towards the pot?



Good points and those are excellent questions to ask ourselves in game! :)
 
C

CMack3

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Sep 8, 2020
Total posts
15
Chips
0
Day 11 - The art of bluffing

I was not a big fan of this chapter. If you call me on this I would clearly be caught in a bluff! I think you may be creating a monster!?
5 Great guidelines to consider before bluffing. I like how you point out if you have a read on a player this is another opportunity. Also, in lower limit games where players are more sticky, your better option is making a hand and value betting. As some of the previous chapter show, math is such an important part of the game and I feel bluffing must therefore also have a range where it is +/- EV. These 5 guidelines to consider will help me find that +EV bluffing range. I think what also needs to be considered is your table image. It will be tougher to bluff if you have been recently caught in a bluff or two or you are up against opponents who may have you noted as someone who may bluff more often than not.
Peace!
 
Good Man

Good Man

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 8, 2020
Total posts
144
Awards
1
Chips
0
— You know, there is one recipe for such emotional trauma...
"Which one?"
"It's called a bluff.
"What is it?"
— It's when you put on a good face when you play a bad game. For example, you have a deuce on your hands, and you pretend to pull out the king.
"How does that help me?"
— Well, if you pretend that everything is fine with you, then everyone will believe you. If everyone believes it, you will. And what you believe has a way of coming true.




Life is a game , play beautiful
 
F

Freepokerfree

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 16, 2020
Total posts
313
Chips
0
Hi all!

Thanks for the content!
It is an art that does not give me much result and also I do not master very well, maybe the context in which I play (low limits) is not convenient or it is more difficult to perform them, I do not know.
Greetings :icon_stud
 
Katie Dozier

Katie Dozier

Poker Expert
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 2, 2010
Total posts
1,331
Awards
2
Chips
0
I was not a big fan of this chapter. If you call me on this I would clearly be caught in a bluff! I think you may be creating a monster!?
5 Great guidelines to consider before bluffing. I like how you point out if you have a read on a player this is another opportunity. Also, in lower limit games where players are more sticky, your better option is making a hand and value betting. As some of the previous chapter show, math is such an important part of the game and I feel bluffing must therefore also have a range where it is +/- EV. These 5 guidelines to consider will help me find that +EV bluffing range. I think what also needs to be considered is your table image. It will be tougher to bluff if you have been recently caught in a bluff or two or you are up against opponents who may have you noted as someone who may bluff more often than not.
Peace!


Haha your bluff was successful on me this morning before coffee at first—my thought was “Hmm he said he didn’t like the chapter but then only had positive things to say about it...What am I missing” lol

Well played on the bluff [emoji3] and glad you enjoyed this section!
 
Katie Dozier

Katie Dozier

Poker Expert
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 2, 2010
Total posts
1,331
Awards
2
Chips
0
Thanks for the content!
It is an art that does not give me much result and also I do not master very well, maybe the context in which I play (low limits) is not convenient or it is more difficult to perform them, I do not know.
Greetings :icon_stud

The less likely your opponents are to be really paying attention and thinking in ranges, the less likely bluffs (barring perhaps all-in shoves) are to work out. However, that generally means you’re playing in great games, with the only conceivable negative being that they won’t be good ones for firing a lot of complex bluffs [emoji4]
 
riff_raff312

riff_raff312

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Mar 24, 2020
Total posts
8,880
Awards
8
CA
Chips
863
The art of bluffing i think is a lot like fishing you need the right bait and time! I can't seem to bluff as good online as i do at a live table this puzzles me a little, my thoughts on this is i'm not able to see my opponent and get a good read because as we all know everyone has a tell. Any thoughts on this Collin or Katie?

The Riff_Raff :cool:
 
Collin Moshman

Collin Moshman

Poker Expert
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 11, 2009
Total posts
1,317
Awards
3
Chips
2
The art of bluffing i think is a lot like fishing you need the right bait and time! I can't seem to bluff as good online as i do at a live table this puzzles me a little, my thoughts on this is i'm not able to see my opponent and get a good read because as we all know everyone has a tell. Any thoughts on this Collin or Katie?

The Riff_Raff :cool:

That's very interesting. My thoughts:

The likelihood of getting a bluff through is based on how well you're picking your spots, as well as how capable your opponents are of folding. My guess is that you're in more loose-passive online games rather than picking spots better when you're playing live.

Suggested adjustment: Switch up your online style toward more value-betting and less bluffing. And nice work in the live games!
 
riff_raff312

riff_raff312

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Mar 24, 2020
Total posts
8,880
Awards
8
CA
Chips
863
That's very interesting. My thoughts:

The likelihood of getting a bluff through is based on how well you're picking your spots, as well as how capable your opponents are of folding. My guess is that you're in more loose-passive online games rather than picking spots better when you're playing live.

Suggested adjustment: Switch up your online style toward more value-betting and less bluffing. And nice work in the live games!
Thanks for the advice Collin i'll be using it in my next online game which is today :) hope to see you some time sitting across form me :cheers:

The Riff_Raff :cool:
 
Katie Dozier

Katie Dozier

Poker Expert
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 2, 2010
Total posts
1,331
Awards
2
Chips
0
Thanks for the advice Collin i'll be using it in my next online game which is today :) hope to see you some time sitting across form me :cheers:

The Riff_Raff :cool:


Hope your tournament went well and Collin’s advice proved helpful :)
 
Top