The Art of Bluffing (Day 11 Course Discussion)

Debi

Debi

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The Art of Bluffing can be overrated - it is important to know the good spots for bluffing.

If you have not yet read Day 11 and watched the video for Day 11 - take a few minutes now to do that and then come back here to discuss it:

The Art of Bluffing

Hope you did well on the quiz! Let's discuss the 5 good bluffing spots and bluffing in general.

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Polytarp

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I probably would have folded the QJs when the Ace turn card showed. As I mentioned in some prior posts I have been beaten on the river holding superior cards more times than I care to recall over the last few months so I'm a little gun shy here...I'll bring this into my toolkit and hope to show a proper exploitation somewhere down the line.

Regarding the hands shown during these games I would have preferred seeing 83's, 92's..played out of position...etc..(the table image of this player must be made clear beforehand though!) but through bet sizing, explicitly and successfully representing a monster hand. Bad players can't be bluffed so it should also be made clear that everyone at the table is a capable player and how the possibility of a bluff could have been considered by the other players.

I hope to provide some screen shots of bluffs and how I made them work within a CC free roll...possibly tonight's ACR game or in the slew of games available tomorrow..if I am able to play any of them. Within small stakes I agree with consistent value betting...with large stakes I believe that you must bluff in order to be a winning player...am I right in thinking this?:confused:
 
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Polytarp

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Although I played in the ACR game, I was out-kicked and kicked out in the first hand of the game. Here is an example of a bluff in a small game where I used position and bet sizing to represent a bigger hand than I had post flop. This is a regular cash game that I play to qualify for the "Hand of the Day." The other player was good so I got away with this one.
 

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PsychoVas

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Bluffing is indeed an art. I have to admit that in playing mostly free-rolls and micros, bluff is essentially well oiled and stored away from the toolcase, for future use. People just don't fold at those stakes.
 
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cheeeer

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What I don't like about bluff (and I realized it only recently!) is when you bet much and your bluff is successful - it gives you wings. And then you can't stop bluffing even when don't have to. If you can beat this feeling you will become really successful player.
 
Debi

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What I don't like about bluff (and I realized it only recently!) is when you bet much and your bluff is successful - it gives you wings. And then you can't stop bluffing even when don't have to. If you can beat this feeling you will become really successful player.

Yes you have to be careful and keep things in perspective - it does feel good to get away with a great bluff!
 
Luvart

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Finished Day #11.

My answers to today's quiz:

i)We are left with 1900$ stack, which means that a bluff of ~50% of the pot here is going to "eat" ~40% of our stack if gets called by villain, which will be a disaster. We can't really put villain on a reliable range here: he can have hit top or second pair with all random 9x or 7x hands like J9s, 109s, 98s, 87s, etc., he can have good random Ax or Kx hands, some gutshot draws with J10s hands, etc. etc. I think it's not a good spot to throw a bluff.

ii)Now in the river, the only "new" read we have is villain's three consecutive checks postflop, and the third came on a scare card. He can have missed the flushed draw, he can have a mid or third pair, he can have hit an A10, A5s, A4s,type of top pair hand. I don't have any read here. I think I would still check behind.

Tomorrow with Day #12.
 
Collin Moshman

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Thanks for posting your quiz answers in these threads Luvart, really enjoying seeing these!
 
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jeanpierre1279

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DAy 11- The Art of Bluffing

I confess that I was a little confused in the part of the course where I was told not to bluff hands that can win at the showdown because we often have hands that can win on the river only with a top pair high card but we have to make decisions before the flop, so what I do is follow the other steps like representing strong hands and trying to scare scare cards.

But I have a lot of difficulties with these chapters because I'm trying to change from my tight to aggressive style so I have a lot of difficulty representing weak hands with good raises that make the villain fold, I often do and call.

It is a chapter that I have to revisit many times along with what will tell you how to bet and raise so that the equity fold changes radically.

Good Luck and lets movie foward:jd4::top:
 
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jeanpierre1279

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Day 12 - Ask Yourself This Question Every Time You Bet the River

As I said in other posts, I'm trying to adapt to changing my style from tight to aggressive, so I have difficulties betting in any situation above semi-bluff or value cards, but the chapter for me is important because I always try to make the game action run fast and on raise I don't even think about anything if I have nothing I will show my weakness or fold.

But experience will show me when to bet with a size better suited to what players have in hand.

I think that if this chapter came after one that explained how to bet or identify players who bet very high that show bluff or monster hands it would be more usable, but I believe that in the future everything will make more sense to me, since I am one mere beginner.

Good Luck and Lets movie foward:jd4::banghead:
 
cferdi

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Bluffing is indeed an art. I have to admit that in playing mostly free-rolls and micros, bluff is essentially well oiled and stored away from the toolcase, for future use. People just don't fold at those stakes.


Yep, that is very true, especially at the beginning of, say, the freerolls. However, there is the odd spot where I have managed, but I usually save it for a bit further down the line when most of the idiots who allin every hand or call everything are more or less gone and I have managed to establish a fairly solid table image. It can be done at these stakes, but judiciously (unless you are one of the maniacs who do it every turn and build a pile of chips - but they lose them usually in the end)

Talking of which; I found it really funny yesterday; I was playing at a table where I thought everyone one tight/passive more or less, except this one guy (in every single hand, raising everything preflop, cbetting, then if opponents didn't go or bet into him, he'd just allin, so people were just giving him their chips left right and centre). I didn't care too much (HATE these types), so just played my best hands and if I hit and he wouldn't go, I allinned him - strange - he folded a few times. Or, he'd call with nothing to speak of, hoping to outdraw (a couple of times he did, but I always won it back).

What I didn't get was, I had shown the table his bluffs, and the kind of rubbish he was betting with, but in between my attacks, they still kept giving him all their chips!! so funny.

Eventually, I got him out, then I thought "great now we can play proper poker". Nope. One of the other guys decided to take over the maniac mantle - lmao! :rolleyes::confused:
 
liuouhgkres

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In first hand, T9hh, I disagree with Collin Moshman, I think hero shouldn't bluff on the flop. The reason is that villain should have 33 and 22 here, because players are very deep. In these spots, where villain can have 2 sets and variety of top pairs, OOP player should check range. If hero wants to bluff for whatever reason, he has a lot of better candidates, like double backdoors. Turn bluff is good, because A is good for us, but also this hand is bottom of our range. On the river, imo, we definitely should bluff with bit sizing. We have a lot of strong hands, like AA, KK, AK, AJ, JJ, QT. On top of that we block straight (though I think it's not very important, but it's something) and we can make villain fold K and weak A. Mandatory overbet bluff river.

In second hand, where hero has AdTs, I agree that hero shouldn't bluff turn, however once hero bets turn and villain calls, with this particular hand we need to bluff river. Reason is that, board is dry and when villain calls turn, villain most likely to have some sort of pair, like 2, 5, or 8. River 9d is great for us, because we can have K9, 99, 98,76 and flushes, so on this river we have a lot of very strong hands that we want to bet large. AdT is great to bluff because we block flush and have very little showdown value because of our turn bet. Mandatory overbet bluff river.

On 73ss hand I again disagre with Collin Moshman. On the river, this is very bottom of our range and villain can have a lot of missed hands that beat us. By betting we can make villain fold all missed flush and straight draws, small pocket pairs and some 8x hands. We definitely should check back some weaker Kx and and good Tx hands on the turn, so on this river we will bet them, so we have value hands to bet. I don't like hero's bet sizing though, I would prefer smaller sizing because our value range is quite weak.

Hero is very weak, you can tell just by his betting half pot on all type of boards.
 
Collin Moshman

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Thanks Jeanpierre!

Cferdi that's a great story :)

Liuouhgkres, Thanks for your feedback. I respectfully disagree with your analysis. The Th9h is a standard c-bet given that we raised from EP and we're at the bottom of our range with ten-high on a dry flop. Villain will have 33/22 in his range like you say, but these only represent 6 combos in what's likely a significant flatting range. So I think it would be a real mistake here not to have any betting range.

It's great that you're thinking about poker at a high level. While your feedback remains very welcome here and in other threads, please understand that this course is designed to get players succeeding at micro and low-stakes games. I believe that most Pio-type analysis isn't the best way to learn/teach poker in games where many or most opponents have very exploitable tendencies. You'll do best by exploiting these weaknesses.
 
Polytarp

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..please understand that this course is designed to get players succeeding at micro and low-stakes games.


I can already prove that this course has helped me to succeed in placing ITM in at least one poker stars micro MTT. Grappling with all of the concepts within the course (that were presented in very user-friendly way!) through the filter of value betting opponents who are there mainly for fun is challenging in a "fun way" when applying these new ideas. I'll probably be guilty of (over?)reaching into "serious and professional" NLH game concepts in some future posts but I'll only ask to be pointed in the right direction where I can toddle off and learn things on my own.

Here are two places where I bluff/semi-bluff constantly and win a disproportionate amount of times (80%+). Within 888's "Hand of the Day" 2/5 cent SNAP cash games, with a bankroll of between $2-3, anytime I have a pair I bet 35 cents when no one else is in the pot regardless of position. In any of the micro/low Spin games I play on Poker Stars, anytime the flop shows a matching suite, I'll bet out..not like a dummy but priced out to the number of players in the hand and what I assessed was their bet size comfort zone.. C betting is a given if necessary. Join me in a game and I can demonstrate it to you on the virtual felt.;)
 
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belizebum

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Got the first part of the quiz wrong..lol. Would I bet/bluff, yes, to me it is a scare card because it makes the straight. And I understand betting the Ace on the river but seems like everyone but me plays every Ace they see, so bluffing here seems a bit off.
 
Katie Dozier

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I can already prove that this course has helped me to succeed in placing ITM in at least one Poker Stars micro MTT. Grappling with all of the concepts within the course (that were presented in very user-friendly way!) through the filter of value betting opponents who are there mainly for fun is challenging in a "fun way" when applying these new ideas. I'll probably be guilty of (over?)reaching into "serious and professional" NLH game concepts in some future posts but I'll only ask to be pointed in the right direction where I can toddle off and learn things on my own.

Here are two places where I bluff/semi-bluff constantly and win a disproportionate amount of times (80%+). Within 888's "Hand of the Day" 2/5 cent SNAP cash games, with a bankroll of between $2-3, anytime I have a pair I bet 35 cents when no one else is in the pot regardless of position. In any of the micro/low Spin games I play on Poker Stars, anytime the flop shows a matching suite, I'll bet out..not like a dummy but priced out to the number of players in the hand and what I assessed was their bet size comfort zone.. C betting is a given if necessary. Join me in a game and I can demonstrate it to you on the virtual felt.;)


Thanks very much, Polytarp! Very glad to hear that the course is working so well for you :)
 
redboy23

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Hello CCers,

Tough spot for me in this one. C-bets and semi bluffs, I am comfortable with and I am growing a nose for those spots where players try to bluff. I seldom try to bluff but will try to make use of the occasional scare card.

Response to video question:

I would not fire another bet. My reason for this is that I would believe that my opponent will play me for a combination of AKQT instead of an over-pair since the c-bet post flop was not very convincing and may not fold his hand. The board hits villains range and I would check this one down hoping to pair one of my cards and fold to aggression.

The river card I would agree to a bluff since it is an over-card that villain expects me to have and just about the only chance to win, so I would fire a bluff of half the pot.

Hope that scares villain away!
 
olewerkrd

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Bluffing is real art in poker.
A correctly created player’s manner and a very sensitive flair for all opponents and a competent understanding of the game)) the most important thing is that they bluff less often))))
 
freddydr87

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This is one off the most dificult skills to master in poker,because a non sence bluff any one is capavel to do,but the bluff have to aim to spesific hand that the vilaind is traying to take to the showdonw because he knows he can beat your rangue there, so there is no pint in bluffing when u know the vilain dont fold or the board has inpact very strong in his rangue.
Also (for me is the most important reason) bluffing is nessesary to get paid when u have a monster hand that wanths to play by stack,lets say you only stack yourself with monster,vilain will have an easy fold,but iff you put a persentage off bluffes that cover the value that you louse when vilain folds you will be stracting max value from you monster hands either the vilain call or folds
 
Phoenix Wright

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As someone who used to bluff a bit too much, I learned that a lot of these "good bluffing spots" I followed instinctively. Now it is good to learn the "science" of why it worked for me when it did :D

p.s. I bluff less frequently now though.
 
makisaa

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Bluffing is a very important tool in the game. A great part of the games and a great part of the stacks are a result of bluffing. Bluffing is important, because we cannot expect to have super cards and winning hands all the time. So here comes the bluff, which is a psycology excercise for the players!
 
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karmakoumas

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in the first question, why we can't choose to bet and play like as we have a big cards pair in hand and continue to be more aggressive ?
sorry but i find your argument to check the turn not very consistent, our opponent is in the big blind position and maybe we can consider him just defending the big blind because the raise in the pre-flop is not very high, but if we continue to bet and be more aggressive we can push him to fold especially with the cards in the flop and turn that are not a high cards.
what did you think ? :confused:
 
Collin Moshman

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As someone who used to bluff a bit too much, I learned that a lot of these "good bluffing spots" I followed instinctively. Now it is good to learn the "science" of why it worked for me when it did :D

p.s. I bluff less frequently now though.

That's great to hear Phoenix!

in the first question, why we can't choose to bet and play like as we have a big cards pair in hand and continue to be more aggressive ?
sorry but i find your argument to check the turn not very consistent, our opponent is in the big blind position and maybe we can consider him just defending the big blind because the raise in the pre-flop is not very high, but if we continue to bet and be more aggressive we can push him to fold especially with the cards in the flop and turn that are not a high cards.
what did you think ? :confused:


Karma, the first video hand is the T9s where our opponent is in the cutoff I believe? Generally though you want to be selective about bluffing spots without a good read. Sorry if I'm getting this question wrong + hope that helps!
 
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karmakoumas

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That's great to hear Phoenix!




Karma, the first video hand is the T9s where our opponent is in the cutoff I believe? Generally though you want to be selective about bluffing spots without a good read. Sorry if I'm getting this question wrong + hope that helps!



You think that i didn't read very well this hand when i'm saying we should continue pressing ? or i didn't understand you response ?
 
Collin Moshman

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The video begins with T9s. If you're asking about a different hand, please let me know exactly where in the book or video you mean and I'll be happy to answer :)
 
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