Is NL hold em, the biggest luck involved poker game ?

RogueRivered

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Just wanted to point out a bit of math at the beginning of this thread from the OP. He said someone with a stack of 100 would need to win 4 flips in a row to beat someone with 600. That's ridiculous. It would actually take far less than 3, if it were possible to have a fraction (but it is if you play poker and don't go all-in every time). Simple:

600 100 Starting stacks
500 200 One flip done
300 400 Two flips done -- Already behind after 2 flips.
000 700 Three flips done

Flipping a coin and getting heads or tails 3 times in a row is a very likely event.

There is no way the OP is putting in enough hands at his home games to be able to say anything about luck or lack thereof.

And, hey, if he folds KK every time he sees an A on the flop, no wonder he loses with it so much!

I think he also has no idea how to calculate odds with respect to dead money.

Why did I get myself involved?
 
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Rumme1

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Just wanted to point out a bit of math at the beginning of this thread from the OP. He said someone with a stack of 100 would need to win 4 flips in a row to beat someone with 600. That's ridiculous. It would actually take far less than 3, if it were possible to have a fraction (but it is if you play poker and don't go all-in every time). Simple:

600 100 Starting stacks
500 200 One flip done
300 400 Two flips done -- Already behind after 2 flips.
000 700 Three flips done

Flipping a coin and getting heads or tails 3 times in a row is a very likely event.

There is no way the OP is putting in enough hands at his home games to be able to say anything about luck or lack thereof.

And, hey, if he folds KK every time he sees an A on the flop, no wonder he loses with it so much!

I think he also has no idea how to calculate odds with respect to dead money.

Why did I get myself involved?

Yes , why did you get yourself involved, by making claims I never stated. For example : claiming that :

when I have KK...I always fold if a Ace flops .

never said that , so you prove you are just another liar on this forum. Lets take a look at something much closer to what I really said :

" if im late in a tourney and have KK , and my opponent goes all in when a ace hits the flop , and that bet would bust me, then I have no problem folding my KK" .

Ive played poker for 32 years and logged 100s of thousands of hands in that time . Its very possible that I have more live cash game experience then you do, along with being able to state that Ive played with people like Phil Ivey at the Tropicana in games like 7 card stud - $100-$200 limit before Ivey moved out to Vegas .

Im confident my poker experience levels are much higher then you will ever know, or admit.

I never claim to be a great internet player or be more experienced with hi stakes internet playing. I do claim to be very knowledgeable on hi stakes cash games and I could care less if you dont believe it. .
 
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I am of the belief that you should never compare games in regards to luck vs. skill because each game is different.

Cant agree with that. Different poker games have varying degrees of skill, luck or distinct skills that make it different from the other poker games.

For example :

7 card stud HI-LO , IMHO, is a game that involves more memory skills, then hold em.

NL hold em, is a game that involves more coin flip luck, then pot limit - 7 stud.

To break it down further :

you have 2 games. One is :

NL HOLD EM - $300 BUY IN

or

LIMIT 7 STUD - $300 BUY IN - $15 - $30 betting structure.

In the NL hold em, you can easily bust your entire buy in, on the first hand you play , with one bad beat by getting a hand cracked like your KK, vs AQ suited , all in preflop.

You wont have this same type of luck factor in the 7-stud game, because you are not allowed to shove your $300 buy in, all into the pot on the very first bet of the hand.

The 7 card stud, allows you to use skills on 3rd-4th-5th-6th-7th street
to decide to get out of the hand and save your money , if you think your hand has now become to weak to play. You cant do this with the NL hold em, all in shove and are now entirely in the hands of LUCK, on the flop, turn and river.

Now, some people may reply..." dont bet all in on KK, preflop , and risk it. "

which I reply : " what if my opponent is very aggressive with HIS AQ or QQ or AK , preflop, and reraises me all in pre ? Are you supposed to just fold KK, to aggressive rerasiers at the table, who like to bully with hands like AQ/ AK / QQ / 10-10 ?
 
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KALUGAJ

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Play 62 vs KK courage and risk, but not art, and if you win it's lucky, but when 100 freeroll overheating 90 percent AA, KK, AK so it's ...? shame, ignorance
 
detroitjunkie

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Cant agree with that. Different poker games have varying degrees of skill, luck or distinct skills that make it different from the other poker games.

For example :

7 card stud HI-LO , IMHO, is a game that involves more memory skills, then hold em.

NL hold em, is a game that involves more coin flip luck, then pot limit - 7 stud.

To break it down further :

you have 2 games. One is :

NL HOLD EM - $300 BUY IN

or

LIMIT 7 STUD - $300 BUY IN - $15 - $30 betting structure.

In the NL hold em, you can easily bust your entire buy in, on the first hand you play , with one bad beat by getting a hand cracked like your KK, vs AQ suited , all in preflop.

You wont have this same type of luck factor in the 7-stud game, because you are not allowed to shove your $300 buy in, all into the pot on the very first bet of the hand.

The 7 card stud, allows you to use skills on 3rd-4th-5th-6th-7th street
to decide to get out of the hand and save your money , if you think your hand has now become to weak to play. You cant do this with the NL hold em, all in shove and are now entirely in the hands of LUCK, on the flop, turn and river.

Now, some people may reply..." dont bet all in on KK, preflop , and risk it. "

which I reply : " what if my opponent is very aggressive with HIS AQ or QQ or AK , preflop, and reraises me all in pre ? Are you supposed to just fold KK, to aggressive rerasiers at the table, who like to bully with hands like AQ/ AK / QQ / 10-10 ?


What you are describing is variance, and yes it changes from game to game - however it does not mean you need to get luckier in NLH than in 7 card stud to be a winner. A 75% chance to win a hand is a 75% chance to win a hand in either game, it just plays differently so it seems different.

Losing more money on one hand and going bust is not a factor of luck, it is a factor of variance through game design, you are confusing the two. Just because it is easier to go broke in NLH does not mean it takes more luck to win. I know you are in the mindset that luck is a major factor in NLH, and in very very rare times in can be a constant in someones life, but truth is that most peoples luck is equal and in the end non-relevant when describing different game types. Poker is poker, a 5-outer is a 5-outer and hits the same amount of times in every game!

Now when variance gets thought of as luck comes in number of players playing a tournament. The more players the more variance and coincidentally more luck needed to win - though the two are not dependent on each other, they exist for different reasons.

Do not confuse variance with luck, they are two different birds, many people make this mistake, and knowing this difference will make you a better player moving forward, at least mentally.

Oh and more skill in one does not mean more luck in another, it means less skill. Less skill does NOT = more luck.
 
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Rumme1

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, but truth is that most peoples luck is equal and in the end non-relevant when describing different game types. Poker is poker, a 5-outer is a 5-outer and hits the same amount of times in every game!

.

we will have to agree to disagree on this point. I know you are knowledgeable on poker ..and I think you know I am also. My success in poker for 32 years, would help prove that. I am 100% confident that most peoples luck in gambling / poker, is not exactly equal..over the short term, mid term or long term.

This could also be proven in other gambling formats , where the luck factor is even stronger ..for example slot machines. You can take a 5 people, put them on a slot machine for 10,000 hours, and I guarantee all 5 players will not end up with the exact same amount of luck/ winnings as each other. Luck is random , not pre destined to be equal for everyone.

Im shocked that you would disagree with this.
 
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Rumme1

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A deeper analysis of LUCK in poker

So we all know the stats , for getting dealt certain hands in NL hold em .

AA..220-1

so this basically says that if you get deal 220 hands in 1 session, you could expect to get dealt AA, 1 time in that session.

Of course, this types of odds/ stats, are not written in stone and are often very innaccurate.

But lets take it further to show the different levels of good luck.

This is just 1 example that Ive made up .

You sit down at a hold em table...and the 1st hand you get dealt, is AA.

example 1

Well, we could admit that is pure luck. You raise 3x blinds, and everyone folds . You end up winning a small pot with nothing but small blind/ big blind. Now that could be considered bad luck, since the AA, did not result in a significant win .


example 2

same AA hand, but this time you have another player who has KK , you get al lthe money in preflop, and AA, scoops. This is a higher level of good luck for the AA player.

example 3 - same AA hand...but now you got 2 other players that have hands that end up with all the money in the pot preflop...AA..scoops again...this is even higher level of good luck .

example 4 - same AA hand - but AK goes all in pre..and they flop a set of kings, or broadway....now the bad luck factor hits home.

In other words, we are often told by pros, that luck is exactly equal for all poker players, over the long term. I am convinced this is 100% wrong, along with knowing that there are numerous LEVELS of luck in poker. Getting dealt AA on the first hand you play in a session, is only a low level of good luck, if that AA, only wins a uncontested small pot preflop .
 
S3mper

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In Brazil we say: TRUCO, LADRÃO!! :D:D

Ask Negreanu about Tony Baggio. A below average brasilian player that made Negreanu's reading skill fade away because he is one of this villains you are talking about. If it was in a heads-up game, Negranu would have smashed him. In the movies and in the books you can play against this villains not knowing your own cards. In real life history changes.

I'm a little confused you seem to contradict yourself? The claim was that players who don't know how to play (I don't think Tony Baggio would fit in this category but I don't know who he is) are harder to beat than players who know hand ranges, etc...

Then you give the example of a player like this of Tony Baggio but the next line you say Negreanu would have smashed him playing HU?

I call TRUCO, LADRÃO!! :p
 
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So we all know the stats , for getting dealt certain hands in NL hold em .

AA..220-1

so this basically says that if you get deal 220 hands in 1 session, you could expect to get dealt AA, 1 time in that session.
...Yes, you should expect that, but it doesn't always happen. However, over a large number of hands dealt, say 10K, we can expect that 220:1 ratio to be a lot more accurate.

Lets say there is a ratio says that 1:5 guys are gay. Does this mean that every time you see a group of 5 guys, at least one of them is gay? Not at all. However, if there were a group of guys, then that ratio might be a little more close to being accurate.

Of course, this types of odds/ stats, are not written in stone and are often very innaccurate.
...Of course it's not written in stone because they're just the odds of it happening, however it's far from inaccurate. Again, it's based over a large sample size. Also, it's an average. Based on a large sample size, you should average AA 1:220.

But lets take it further to show the different levels of good luck.

This is just 1 example that Ive made up .

You sit down at a hold em table...and the 1st hand you get dealt, is AA.

example 1

Well, we could admit that is pure luck. You raise 3x blinds, and everyone folds. You end up winning a small pot with nothing but small blind/ big blind. Now that could be considered bad luck, since the AA, did not result in a significant win.
...Getting dealt AA is pure luck? What?

Winning a pot, even though it's just the blinds, is bad luck? What?

Granted, you do want to win more money with AA, but things like this happen. Hey, at least you a free run when blinds come along!.


example 2

same AA hand, but this time you have another player who has KK , you get al lthe money in preflop, and AA, scoops. This is a higher level of good luck for the AA player.
...I do agree with you on this. It's really lucky to run into someone with KK when you have AA because you know theres a good chance they're going to stack off with it.


example 3 - same AA hand...but now you got 2 other players that have hands that end up with all the money in the pot preflop...AA..scoops again...this is even higher level of good luck .
...Again, I agree. Getting your opponents to stack off when you have AA is really lucky.

example 4 - same AA hand - but AK goes all in pre..and they flop a set of kings, or broadway....now the bad luck factor hits home.
...Think you mean trip Kings and not a set, but that's just me nitpicking.

In this situation, it does suck that at this very moment, I lost with AA. However, as a player, I focus on my decision over my results. So, it really doesn't matter that I lost my stack with AA here or I busted in a tournament or whatever the situation is. I made the correct +EV play by getting my stack in with AA, got maximum value for my hand against AK, and just ran into a bit of variance.

Losing the hand wont change the fact that I make the exact same play 100% of the time. My +EV decision will net me more profit in the long run, so I can take a loss with AA < AK here and there.


In other words, we are often told by pros, that luck is exactly equal for all poker players, over the long term. I am convinced this is 100% wrong, along with knowing that there are numerous LEVELS of luck in poker. Getting dealt AA on the first hand you play in a session, is only a low level of good luck, if that AA, only wins a uncontested small pot preflop.
...I really don't get what your examples and luck have to do with each other. You just described a few scenarios with AA that could happen. Since AA has more equity preflop over other hands, we expect it to win more often. However, as long as another hand some equity, it can and will win some of the time.

AKs has ~10% equity over AA, meaning it's going to win about 10% of the time. That's just mathematical and I don't think it's luck/bad luck for you if it happens because it will happen at some point or anther. Maybe some see it as bad luck because it happened to them or it happened at that moment. I can understand why someone would get really upset to lose as a ~90% favorite preflop, but I also think these types of players/thinkers are looking at the small picture and that's how much you profit in the long run int his situation.
above.
 
detroitjunkie

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we will have to agree to disagree on this point. I know you are knowledgeable on poker ..and I think you know I am also. My success in poker for 32 years, would help prove that. I am 100% confident that most peoples luck in gambling / poker, is not exactly equal..over the short term, mid term or long term.

This could also be proven in other gambling formats , where the luck factor is even stronger ..for example slot machines. You can take a 5 people, put them on a slot machine for 10,000 hours, and I guarantee all 5 players will not end up with the exact same amount of luck/ winnings as each other. Luck is random , not pre destined to be equal for everyone.

Im shocked that you would disagree with this.

Slot machines or table games are terrible examples as those are more lick contingent than most and way more than poker

I was not arguing that luck is not different from player to player...just that it is close. Most of us sit somewhere in the 65 35 range and only a very very few sit outside that range.

But what i disagreed on is you saying it takes more luck to win nlh than plo or 7card and i say you can not compare them that way and its just not true. Just because one takes more skill does not meann the other takes more luck. Think of checkers and chess. Chess obviously takes way more skill but there is no true luck in either asides from your opponent having a stroke during the game

This is where i say you confuse luck with variance
 
Aceplayer55

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You can take a 5 people, put them on a slot machine for 10,000 hours, and I guarantee all 5 players will not end up with the exact same amount of luck/ winnings as each other. Luck is random , not pre destined to be equal for everyone.

Unfortunately your lack of understanding of probability has led you to this point. Your intransigence will doom you to a lifetime of bad "luck".
 
detroitjunkie

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Let me go on record before this comes up - even though I believe some people exist within an up to 15% margin of equal when it comes to luck, IN NO WAY EVER should you let this determine how you are going to play a hand, because that change back in the other direction can happen at any time, if you allow yourself to play based on your concept of your luck zone you will forever be doomed in the end.

Anything outside that 15% is either a very rare occurrence- an anomaly, or based off of incomplete data (which in essence is always because you can never determine your luck zone in anything until your death)
 
RogueRivered

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Yes , why did you get yourself involved, by making claims I never stated. For example : claiming that :

when I have KK...I always fold if a Ace flops .

never said that , so you prove you are just another liar on this forum. Lets take a look at something much closer to what I really said :

Wow, and I thought that would have been the least I had said to get me in trouble. :D :D

The problem with all your examples are they are anecdotal, not mathematical. You say your software tells you that you lose with KK 78% of the time (I hope I got that right -- wouldn't want to be called a liar). Could you tell us how many KK hands you have in your tracking software? Just the number? And what is your tracking software?

Sorry about forgetting part of your statement about KK when the ace flops. My bad. I'm not going to call you a liar, though, when you were talking about Chris Ferguson's $100,000 challenge, because I know you were close -- it was a $10,000 challenge. Honest mistake, no biggie.
 
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RogueRivered

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Just for comparison, I've gotten KK 910 times in cash play. I won 728 of those hands for a total profit of $596. I lost 181 of those hands for a loss of $243. Altogether the profit was $353. None of this takes into account how the hand was played, only starting hands. Obviously, this is micro cash play at 2nl, 5nl, and 10nl. My database has 193,639 hands -- super small compared to most of you I bet.

Just to show you how great stats are with large numbers:

AA 891 times
KK 910 "
QQ 849 "
JJ 891 "
TT 883 "
99 889 "
88 870 "
77 900 "
66 887 "
55 890 "
44 905 "
33 908 "
22 916 "

These are each .46 to .47 of total starting hands, except for QQ, which is only .44. (Hey! I feel cheated. Luck isn't fair for everyone.)
 
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ph_il

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Just for comparison, I've gotten KK 910 times in cash play. I won 728 of those hands for a total profit of $596. I lost 181 of those hands for a loss of $243. Altogether the profit was $353. None of this takes into account how the hand was played, only starting hands. Obviously, this is micro cash play at 2nl, 5nl, and 10nl. My database has 193,639 hands -- super small compared to most of you I bet.

Just to show you how great stats are with large numbers:

AA 891 times
KK 910 "
QQ 849 "
JJ 891 "
TT 883 "
99 889 "
88 870 "
77 900 "
66 887 "
55 890 "
44 905 "
33 908 "
22 916 "

These are each .46 to .47 of total starting hands, except for QQ, which is only .44. (Hey! I feel cheated. Luck isn't fair for everyone.)
I like this.

How well have you done with 22 since is the pair you've been dealt the most?
 
detroitjunkie

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I like this.

How well have you done with 22 since is the pair you've been dealt the most?

I agree, talk about bad luck, those ducks are killing you bro

When I have stopped taking a thread seriously, which I have done with this one now twice, its time to go I will no longer be posting in here since I fear no one is reading it anymore
 
Aceplayer55

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Could you tell us how many KK hands you have in your tracking software? Just the number? And what is your tracking software?

lol
Good point !
He plays live, so his tracking software is called I-Only-Remember-Bad-Hands.

Automatically deletes winning hands and its free !
 
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ph_il

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lol
Good point !
He plays live, so his tracking software is called I-Only-Remember-Bad-Hands.

Automatically deletes winning hands and its free !
Well, if getting your money in all-in preflop is always a coinflip situation (Rumme1's words) and we assume he is getting most/all his money in preflop with KK for value...

Then losing 78% of the time probably just means he's just hit some bad variance.

Chin up, Rumme1. Keep playing KK and eventually you'll hit your expected 50% win rate with them.
 
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Well, if getting your money in all-in preflop is always a coinflip situation (Rumme1's words) and we assume he is getting most/all his money in preflop with KK for value...

Then losing 78% of the time probably just means he's just hit some bad variance.

Chin up, Rumme1. Keep playing KK and eventually you'll hit your expected 50% win rate with them.

My chin is up . Im one of the few poker players on earth, that has made a living at the game for the last 15 years of my life. No, I dont win millions and never expect to nor do I have any desire to be on TV or become a household name. . I am fortunate because for me , poker isnt a social passtime, or a thrill of the gamble, I view it as the easiest way I know, to make a living a few days a week. I dont live a extravagant life or a glamourious poker life. I do live a stable comfortable life . It would be nice if I started to run really lucky again, like I once did for a period of several years , but for now, even running with below average luck, has not hurt my poker bankroll much , due to my skills in money management, saving my prior winnings , and my ability to logically evaluate when im losing due to bad play , or bad luck. I often will quit poker for many months, when I feel as though im not getting rewarded for proper play in the game.

This has worked well for me and my style of play. It wont work for many others and im glad that most players that Ive played with, are more of gamblers, then solid, patient poker players. Their recklessness [ which can often be very irritating when they constantly win with poor play} and weak discipline, has given me a very comfortable lifestyle , and I am thankful for it.
 
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My chin is up . Im one of the few poker players on earth, that has made a living at the game for the last 15 years of my life. No, I dont win millions and never expect to nor do I have any desire to be on TV or become a household name. . I am fortunate because for me , poker isnt a social passtime, or a thrill of the gamble, I view it as the easiest way I know, to make a living a few days a week. I dont live a extravagant life or a glamourious poker life. I do live a stable comfortable life . It would be nice if I started to run really lucky again, like I once did for a period of several years , but for now, even running with below average luck, has not hurt my poker bankroll much , due to my skills in money management, saving my prior winnings , and my ability to logically evaluate when im losing due to bad play , or bad luck. I often will quit poker for many months, when I feel as though im not getting rewarded for proper play in the game.

This has worked well for me and my style of play. It wont work for many others and im glad that most players that Ive played with, are more of gamblers, then solid, patient poker players. Their recklessness [ which can often be very irritating when they constantly win with poor play} and weak discipline, has given me a very comfortable lifestyle , and I am thankful for it.
That's awesome.

While we disagree on some things as far as poker is related, I have no problem commending you on being a profitable poker player and being able to make a living off it. It's not something many can do. While I am a profitable player, I don't think I could do that grind for a living.
 
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That's awesome.

While we disagree on some things as far as poker is related, I have no problem commending you on being a profitable poker player and being able to make a living off it. It's not something many can do. While I am a profitable player, I don't think I could do that grind for a living.

yes..the grind in poker, is similar to a job, except the poker job only takes up my time 2-3 days per week..so its better then a 5 day a week normal job in that respect.

my style of play is not trying to achieve stardom or being a millionaire. it is to achieve a comfortable lifestyle without having to work and have a boss.
 
korneel

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yes..the grind in poker, is similar to a job, except the poker job only takes up my time 2-3 days per week..so its better then a 5 day a week normal job in that respect.

my style of play is not trying to achieve stardom or being a millionaire. it is to achieve a comfortable lifestyle without having to work and have a boss.
Would love to be able to do that one day.
 
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