P
PokerJoeAAAA
Rock Star
Silver Level
10 % pay???????????????????/
1% pay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
but dont worry "MATH IS OVER RATED"
10 % pay???????????????????/
1% pay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
but dont worry "MATH IS OVER RATED"
dmorris68
Legend
Loyaler
When I see FR I think "full ring" so was about to pop in here with a "wtf kind of question is that?" Oops.
I concur that freerolls are good for beginners in-training. And private freerolls like CCs or bonus freerolls like the Ironman ones at FT might be worthwhile and fun. But wide open public freerolls are a grind that just are not worth the time for anybody with a modicum of skill. Unless you're just playing for grins and nothing else, once you understand the basics of the game, how to calc and use odds, etc., then you really need to move out into real money if you want to make money, even if that means a deposit. Just do it.
Staying in public freerolls to better your game won't work beyond the very basic skill level -- you can't outplay people in public freerolls. You'll continue to see bad beat after bad beat, in frustrating frequencies, and you'll find that your sophisticated moves just don't work as they would in a higher real money game. You have no edge, it's just an extremely high-variance luckfest. It can easily lead to frustration with the overall poker experience, because whether for money or not, most people are playing to win. And when you can't consistently win, or show something for it when you do win, then the interest (and improvement) will fade out and die. And note that the penny/micro stakes are about the same as freerolls. You'll have to get up around 25NL at least before you can accumulate a consistent profit, and if you aren't willing to deposit then it's going to take quite a long and frustrating grind to build the proper BR to move to those stakes. I couldn't do it, I was much happier depositing here and there until I could accumulate both the skill and BR to play where I play now. My BR is now pretty much self-sufficient without any need for deposits, but if by some major bad swing I drop below my minimum threshold, I won't think twice about depositing again (assuming I wish to keep playing).
Just my $0.02...
I concur that freerolls are good for beginners in-training. And private freerolls like CCs or bonus freerolls like the Ironman ones at FT might be worthwhile and fun. But wide open public freerolls are a grind that just are not worth the time for anybody with a modicum of skill. Unless you're just playing for grins and nothing else, once you understand the basics of the game, how to calc and use odds, etc., then you really need to move out into real money if you want to make money, even if that means a deposit. Just do it.
Staying in public freerolls to better your game won't work beyond the very basic skill level -- you can't outplay people in public freerolls. You'll continue to see bad beat after bad beat, in frustrating frequencies, and you'll find that your sophisticated moves just don't work as they would in a higher real money game. You have no edge, it's just an extremely high-variance luckfest. It can easily lead to frustration with the overall poker experience, because whether for money or not, most people are playing to win. And when you can't consistently win, or show something for it when you do win, then the interest (and improvement) will fade out and die. And note that the penny/micro stakes are about the same as freerolls. You'll have to get up around 25NL at least before you can accumulate a consistent profit, and if you aren't willing to deposit then it's going to take quite a long and frustrating grind to build the proper BR to move to those stakes. I couldn't do it, I was much happier depositing here and there until I could accumulate both the skill and BR to play where I play now. My BR is now pretty much self-sufficient without any need for deposits, but if by some major bad swing I drop below my minimum threshold, I won't think twice about depositing again (assuming I wish to keep playing).
Just my $0.02...
AustinGrimes
Rising Star
Bronze Level
I don't think playing any freerolls are a waste of time if you cash. SOMETHING IS BETTER THAN NOTHING! Like someone stated in the thread earlier, you can always feed that into another micro stake tournament and hopefully with some more cash-in's you'll be able to move up the ladder to higher stake games with ZERO deposits. Who woulda thunk it? 
Velutha
Visionary
Silver Level
I spent 4 hours today in ixgames.com $50 FR and finished in 24th place for .16 cents.... thats 4 cents an hour... hobos make more than that.
Just my two cents worth... any other opinions?
Depends on your goals...if you have no bankroll and literally every penny helps then grind it out.
konawajim
Rock Star
Silver Level
I AGREE
imasquare
Rock Star
Silver Level
Like everyone already mentioned above, freerolls are great for a beginner to learn and build a bankroll and every little cash adds up for a buy in (private freerolls are better), but if you got the extra cash to deposit to play poker, than you shouldn't play freerolls unless it's just for fun and move allin every hand.
Theblueduce
Rock Star
Silver Level
Yes they are worth it. A great way to win money but more importatnly, a way to understand tha game and gamenship of others. So what..... 4 hours later but you won or won part of it.....That is a great feeliing!!!!! all that training you have done and the selective hands you played...it all paid off. Good lick in future endevors.
N.D.
Visionary
Silver Level
I disagree with the notion that they're only good for absolute beginners. If you can't afford to deposit enough to withstand the high end of microstakes they're great practice for pennies and dimes. On top of that they're not vastly different from $1 buy in MTTs and sngs.
If you're patient enough to see them as more than all in luckfests from hell, there are a great many opportunities for improving your game.
At a glance your basic everyday freeroll is nothing more than an all-in shovefest full of fish. Look more closely and you really can play even better than you imagined for free.
I taught myself some stuff that's considered advanced, and learned it in freerolls.
They're pretty easy to break down. The first level or two you're almost guaranteed to find yourself in an all-in shove-fest of the lowest order. 10's or better say "F*ck It" and call or reraise all-in pre-flop. Just great odds but with a decent hand? Say "F*ck It" and get the chips in.
That's just the first couple of levels though. Later on and with a good sized stack, well...
I taught myself to float, and taught myself when to really get in the thick of things with 2 opponents(there's a trick to it involving stack sizes and putting opponents on hands but still). I manage to C-bet bluff from time to time. Also I naturally pick up on patterns and the timing tells of some players. Combine those and I will on occasion call you down with J high to A high because I know my nothing's better than your nothing, and you can "bite me loser".
There's a bunch of other stuff I learned from freerolls that I just can't get organized in my head outside of a freeroll, but still, valuable stuff.
On top of all that I learned the most valuable lesson there is for tournament poker. How to spot the fish and beat them. I'm not after my perceived equals or betters until I'm in really deep. I'm just trying to take chips off of inferior players. I could never have spotted them without the practice.
"If you look around the table, and can't spot the fish - chances are you're the fish" Until you have some practice(and free practice kicks butt) you'll always be the fish.
If you're patient enough to see them as more than all in luckfests from hell, there are a great many opportunities for improving your game.
At a glance your basic everyday freeroll is nothing more than an all-in shovefest full of fish. Look more closely and you really can play even better than you imagined for free.
I taught myself some stuff that's considered advanced, and learned it in freerolls.
They're pretty easy to break down. The first level or two you're almost guaranteed to find yourself in an all-in shove-fest of the lowest order. 10's or better say "F*ck It" and call or reraise all-in pre-flop. Just great odds but with a decent hand? Say "F*ck It" and get the chips in.
That's just the first couple of levels though. Later on and with a good sized stack, well...
I taught myself to float, and taught myself when to really get in the thick of things with 2 opponents(there's a trick to it involving stack sizes and putting opponents on hands but still). I manage to C-bet bluff from time to time. Also I naturally pick up on patterns and the timing tells of some players. Combine those and I will on occasion call you down with J high to A high because I know my nothing's better than your nothing, and you can "bite me loser".
There's a bunch of other stuff I learned from freerolls that I just can't get organized in my head outside of a freeroll, but still, valuable stuff.
On top of all that I learned the most valuable lesson there is for tournament poker. How to spot the fish and beat them. I'm not after my perceived equals or betters until I'm in really deep. I'm just trying to take chips off of inferior players. I could never have spotted them without the practice.
"If you look around the table, and can't spot the fish - chances are you're the fish" Until you have some practice(and free practice kicks butt) you'll always be the fish.
N.D.
Visionary
Silver Level
I left something out. I accidentally taught myself to play small ball poker in freerolls. At some point I got around to reading stuff from Daniel Negreanu and spent the whole time muttering "Well Duh!". It's not that I'm anywhere near as good as Daniel, it's just that the concepts were the same for freerolls as the higher levels he was talking about.
For the most part, small ball's the best way to play freerolls. Also, and this might sound weird, but play alot of hands through and outplay your opponent. Trust me, it only feels like they always hit their runner-runner. If you know they'll call all-in to try and hit that runner-runner, it's way smarter to play it through for a lot fewer chips.
And don't be afraid of making mistakes. You can't learn without them. I know I still make them, but I do try to learn from them.
For the most part, small ball's the best way to play freerolls. Also, and this might sound weird, but play alot of hands through and outplay your opponent. Trust me, it only feels like they always hit their runner-runner. If you know they'll call all-in to try and hit that runner-runner, it's way smarter to play it through for a lot fewer chips.
And don't be afraid of making mistakes. You can't learn without them. I know I still make them, but I do try to learn from them.
P
PokerJoeAAAA
Rock Star
Silver Level
Sounds like you really built a large bankroll from freerolls. What is your current BR?
Just wondering if i should follow your advice, or try to find you at the tables.
N.D.
Visionary
Silver Level
LOL, it'd be large if I saved it and didn't venture away from freerolls with less than $100. I've probably won at least that much over a really long period of time, but thing is I keep venturing out into the cash section and getting whooped.
Smart would be to stay in freerolls until I have at least $100. I'm not that smart, I get to itchin' for some cash play and lose my loot.
At least I'm just losing freeroll winnings. Some pros lose a lot more than that with the same bad habit of playing at a particular level without enough loot.
My point was never that you can make a quick and big bankroll off of freerolls, just that they offer a lot more than meets the eye at a glance.
As for the bit about small ball it pays out a lot better, save for hands like AA where it can be tough to small ball and win or pull back a lot of chips. But the great thing is freerolls give you some practice at it and taking advantage of opponents with fewer skills than you.
BTW I'm a weirdo. If I cash at all I'm usually going to the final table, but that was true when I was absolutely clueless too. Thing is, practice in freerolls has me knowing what to do when I get to the final table. That and the cheap R&A's at Cake helped a lot too. They were much nicer than the ones at FTP.
Smart would be to stay in freerolls until I have at least $100. I'm not that smart, I get to itchin' for some cash play and lose my loot.
At least I'm just losing freeroll winnings. Some pros lose a lot more than that with the same bad habit of playing at a particular level without enough loot.
My point was never that you can make a quick and big bankroll off of freerolls, just that they offer a lot more than meets the eye at a glance.
As for the bit about small ball it pays out a lot better, save for hands like AA where it can be tough to small ball and win or pull back a lot of chips. But the great thing is freerolls give you some practice at it and taking advantage of opponents with fewer skills than you.
BTW I'm a weirdo. If I cash at all I'm usually going to the final table, but that was true when I was absolutely clueless too. Thing is, practice in freerolls has me knowing what to do when I get to the final table. That and the cheap R&A's at Cake helped a lot too. They were much nicer than the ones at FTP.
N.D.
Visionary
Silver Level
Whoa, don't use what I said about small ball for the turbo freerolls. Won't work. Oops, did I say won't? I just made it work and almost quadrupled up in the one hand. Okay so I got a little lucky too but...
Point is, it can work, it can work very well. It's just that early on there's usually a bunch of folks shoving all-in and you just don't get the chance.
Dang my turbo game's rusty. GL me cuz I forgot a bunch of what I learned. I've been avoiding turbos in general just cuz they're less fun and I have to play them on pokerstars until I save up.
Point is, it can work, it can work very well. It's just that early on there's usually a bunch of folks shoving all-in and you just don't get the chance.
Dang my turbo game's rusty. GL me cuz I forgot a bunch of what I learned. I've been avoiding turbos in general just cuz they're less fun and I have to play them on pokerstars until I save up.
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DaBigBoss
Rock Star
Silver Level
I always chalk freerolls 100 dollars or less up to experience...I mean I can relate to the awe to 16 cents for 4 hours but you knew that before the tourny started. I once entered a tourny with 12,000 players and won in 1st place for 12.23 and it took 9 hours!..when you beat a field that huge you naturally expect some kind of reward or recognition.
Poker Orifice
FoolsTilt
Platinum Level
^^ agreed, although many really aren't worth the time because the experience gained will be of very little value (ie. a typical Fulltilt 2700 player freeroll... or a 'Face The Ace Rd.1'... <<< these games aren't even really poker imo).
L
luckforsome
Rock Star
Silver Level
..i think the best type of freerolls are the country freerolls...for instance the irish freeroll averages 250 players, and top 18 gets 2 dollars..so its really worth the 3 hours it take...plus u dont get many donks going all in the first 30hands..i dont think the 2700 player onesare good though, it take 3 days to complete (full tilt)
Worak
Legend
Bronze Level
Well I don't live there - the german FR has 2700 players every day (yet I won it already
).The best freerolls available are the CC freerolls imo - as mentioned a few times in earlier posts in this thread.