*****Vinyl's GonnaCrushDAmicros 6max thread******

[vinylspiros]

these derails are really important information for me. good to see how people look at this issue. thnks guys.

 

[LD1977]

I agree, we had a discussion and not a flame war.

 

[hackmeplz]

Agree with Duggs here. LD most of what you're saying is technically correct, but you're literally only focusing on the downside. The thing is the downside sucks but the upside is exponential growth which is more beneficial than the downside is harmful.

Vinyl I'm not sure what your long-term goals are in poker, but if your aspirations are to play decently high one day (which it seems it is at least one of your goals), the goal should be to develop solid fundamentals (posting/discussing hands in places like these is the best way imo because that way you can develop sound logic and not get results oriented or lazy) and to make money. For this reason we should be looking to maximize our ev. Now this doesn't mean regularly flipping our entire roll in a 51% spot, but making any reasonable assumptions about winrate, it's provably true that moving up maximizes our long-term ev, assuming we can be disciplined and know when to move down.

Like nothing against people who grind it out with super comfortable rolls who just don't like high-risk situations, if that's the kind of person you are the more power to you, but if your goal is to move up and be making a decent hourly, moving up at 20 buy-ins is 100% fine, and honestly I'd probably be more inclined to do it closer to 15 if the money is replaceable.

Also poker won't be around forever, and it's only getting tougher and tougher by the day. I think it's pretty well accepted that in ~10 years and maybe sooner, poker AI will have come to the point where nlhe is close enough to solved that online poker will most likely be unbeatable with rake. If it takes you years to get out of the micros, the odds of making it just go super far down.

fwiw I probably shot-take a bit too much, and have taken shots with as little as 5 buy-ins in my life roll as a full-time pro, so maybe my judgement is a bit off, but I just think waiting for 60 buy-ins is insane and honestly if you have that big a bankroll you probably run the risk of not playing well because the game is so small compared to your roll.

 

[vinylspiros]

thanks Hack for this post. Your opinion is highly appreciated.

So like for example. I'm currently grinding 10NL with a close to 300 roll. (variance keeps it there for the time being)

If i turn it into 500$ which is like 20 buy ins for 25NL. Do you think i should do some shot taking at 25NL? and if so, when do i go back down to 10NL IYO?


Cause although some might say that 500$ (20 buy ins) is a little short for 25NL due to variance or whatever. IMO it is WAy to much to keep grinding 10NL. Did a little shot taking when roll was close to 400$ last week but was advised( and im kinda glad they did), to keep working on 10NL till it goes higher.



It looks to me after reading all these opinions here, that there is no standard for BRM. I just want to not go busto or have to worry about my roll being too short to be playing at a certain limit.


The part that i found to interesting and particularly true is the bit about the game getting harder and harder by the day. It does kind of sem that because everyone is doing the same thing and people are getting better and better that things will become BE in the future for everyone and having a HUGE edge against others wont be possible.( or at least as possible as it is today)

again, thanks for your help and advice.

 

[Blobweird123]

Well i'll give my opinion for the meantime. Shot 25nl when your roll is 450-500 (I personally like to shot 25nl at 400 because its really no harder than 10nl on the sites I play at). From there I would move down at 250. That gives you a ton of room to get comfortable and you can afford a few BIs. If it happens, you're now sitting with 25 BIs for 10nl which is more than enough.

And then I shot 50nl at 900 since its definitely a difference in skill levels. And from I move to 25nl at 600. From there you're on your own because 50nl is my highest limit lol.

 

[hackmeplz]

One other thing I forgot to mention that's even bigger with a jump like 10 -> 25nl where it's the biggest jump proportionally until 5knl (and 5k regs continue to play lower anyway just due to lack of games), is you don't have to play the same number of tables, cut back a bit. This way most likely you'll be concentrating better/giving yourself a higher winrate and you can also afford to be more selective with tables. You can make sure you're in good games and playing well which should only increase your odds of the shot going well.

Also I think it's kinda implied but my previous post only refers to if you think you are good enough to win solidly at the higher stake. If you feel like you have a small or nonexistent edge at the stake you're playing, it doesn't matter if you have a billion buy-ins trying to play a game you're -ev in is obviously not the best way to increase your long-term or short-term ev.

So anyway it all depends upon your risk tolerance. Personally I think there's no harm at all in taking say a 4 buy-in shot at 25nl when you hit $500. If you're going to set a stop loss for moving down though I'd suggest posting it publicly and you'll be more likely to stick to it. But that for example means even if you hit the stop-loss you're still sitting on 40 10nl buy-ins and you can grind it back up again.

Anyway not trying to belittle people who are advising nittier brm, just saying what I personally would most likely do in your situation.

 

[vinylspiros]

Well i'll give my opinion for the meantime. Shot 25nl when your roll is 450-500 (I personally like to shot 25nl at 400 because its really no harder than 10nl on the sites I play at). From there I would move down at 250. That gives you a ton of room to get comfortable and you can afford a few BIs. If it happens, you're now sitting with 25 BIs for 10nl which is more than enough.

And then I shot 50nl at 900 since its definitely a difference in skill levels. And from I move to 25nl at 600. From there you're on your own because 50nl is my highest limit lol.

Hehe. Awesome Blob. Exactly what i was looking for. This sounds pretty much like what i was thinking in general terms of BRM. will probably be trying this.

 

[Blobweird123]

Hehe. Awesome Blob. Exactly what i was looking for. This sounds pretty much like what i was thinking in general terms of BRM. will probably be trying this.

Obv hack's brm advice of dropping at 400 is just much easier on our RoR %. I personally try to grind through the shot a bit further. But dropping into a ton of BIs at the next lowest level is nice too

Edit: And yes, only 2-table to start!!!! Get a feel for the bet sizings, your new villains, changes in aggression etc. Along the way you'll pick up more tables. But I always start at 2 tables, then 4 etc.

 

[Blobweird123]

Oh and since you're playing zoom it's probably even better just to 1 table at the start of the shot

 

[Figaroo2]

I agree there is very little difference between 10nl and 25nl. I think Vinyl is easily good enough to step up to 25.
I had to empty my bankroll last year to pay for the expenses of playing a UKIPT live event but went straight back to 10 and 25 with just a100$ roll
Its back up to over 1K now . The key for me is just not to play with scared money. I played nitty at first to get the roll going and then loosened up a bit.
The worst downswing Ive had at 25nl was 6 BI when i ran bad in Nov and Dec. And you of course don't have to play at the same levels I Slide up and down even to 2nl if im tired and want an easier game.

 

[vinylspiros]

One other thing I forgot to mention that's even bigger with a jump like 10 -> 25nl where it's the biggest jump proportionally until 5knl (and 5k regs continue to play lower anyway just due to lack of games), is you don't have to play the same number of tables, cut back a bit. This way most likely you'll be concentrating better/giving yourself a higher winrate and you can also afford to be more selective with tables. You can make sure you're in good games and playing well which should only increase your odds of the shot going well.

Also I think it's kinda implied but my previous post only refers to if you think you are good enough to win solidly at the higher stake. If you feel like you have a small or nonexistent edge at the stake you're playing, it doesn't matter if you have a billion buy-ins trying to play a game you're -ev in is obviously not the best way to increase your long-term or short-term ev.

So anyway it all depends upon your risk tolerance. Personally I think there's no harm at all in taking say a 4 buy-in shot at 25nl when you hit $500. If you're going to set a stop loss for moving down though I'd suggest posting it publicly and you'll be more likely to stick to it. But that for example means even if you hit the stop-loss you're still sitting on 40 10nl buy-ins and you can grind it back up again.

Anyway not trying to belittle people who are advising nittier brm, just saying what I personally would most likely do in your situation.

^^^^^
I hear you man. thanks alot. Will deffo keep this in mind when im ready to do it. In the meantime im gonna keep playing 10NL till i have enough . Kinda stuck the past week going up and down but will work on it and hopefully soon ill be at 5 hundo.

 

[vinylspiros]

Oh and since you're playing zoom it's probably even better just to 1 table at the start of the shot

Copy that Blob. good stuff thanks.

I agree there is very little difference between 10nl and 25nl. I think Vinyl is easily good enough to step up to 25.
I had to empty my bankroll last year to pay for the expenses of playing a UKIPT live event but went straight back to 10 and 25 with just a100$ roll
Its back up to over 1K now . The key for me is just not to play with scared money. I played nitty at first to get the roll going and then loosened up a bit.
The worst downswing Ive had at 25nl was 6 BI when i ran bad in Nov and Dec. And you of course don't have to play at the same levels I Slide up and down even to 2nl if im tired and want an easier game.

thanks figaro. Will keep on grinding and see how things go. you havent had a downswing more than 6 buy ins? WOW. what are u running in general if you dont mind me asking? like kinda nitty?

 

[Figaroo2]

Using the excellent material in this club posted by John Anhalt and a personal session with him has really identified my leaks. My red line used to be awful, i was calling raises with no plans other than to continue when I hit a flop and limping half of all hands. Now when I play im proud to say my holder manager shows me as an eagle (solid TAG) something I couldn't manage before for love nor money. You will have noted me occasionally pulling you up for calling raises in the blinds too often with low suited connectors against a single early position raise. Basically tighter and play much less Oop and have better bluffing plans. I still need to work on playing against good lags and maniacs.

 

[Figaroo2]

I would hasten to add im by no means the finished article. Im working towards being able to support myself semi professionally when the contract in my current job expires in Sept 2016. I will have a good solid 6 years under my belt then. Id like another few solid months at 25nl before stepping up limits. Hopeful I can take down a decent tourney in the meantime. I enjoy tourney play but don't get enough time working the hours I have to put in on the day job.

 

[vinylspiros]

Using the excellent material in this club posted by John Anhalt and a personal session with him has really identified my leaks. My red line used to be awful, i was calling raises with no plans other than to continue when I hit a flop and limping half of all hands. Now when I play im proud to say my holder manager shows me as an eagle (solid TAG) something I couldn't manage before for love nor money. You will have noted me occasionally pulling you up for calling raises in the blinds too often with low suited connectors against a single early position raise. Basically tighter and play much less Oop and have better bluffing plans. I still need to work on playing against good lags and maniacs.

I would hasten to add im by no means the finished article. Im working towards being able to support myself semi professionally when the contract in my current job expires in Sept 2016. I will have a good solid 6 years under my belt then. Id like another few solid months at 25nl before stepping up limits. Hopeful I can take down a decent tourney in the meantime. I enjoy tourney play but don't get enough time working the hours I have to put in on the day job.

Alright figaro. I got it bro. Sounds like you have a solid plan and its going as expected.

I also had a little stats analysis with JOHN. A a couple of months ago. Was pretty good but we obviously couldn't turn me into a winning player in 1 hour.

Its mostly what ive learned from this this thread that has made a massive difference in my game.

Hope it works out for you. Good to have a few good cash players here commenting on stuff cause we can never learn unless we exchange info.

thnks again.



Now, enough with the theory already, LOL, gonna be posting some hands later on and see what we come up with.

 

[vinylspiros]

Guys, please take alook at this. This looks to me like a classic example of myself trying to push the money my way when i should probably have gotten away from the hand preflop. any opinions? Spewy? (assume both unknown as i dont think i bothered reading stats while in game)



Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Full Tilt Converter Tool from http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php

Hero (Button) ($13.33)
SB ($24.18)
BB ($11.23)
UTG ($33.99)
MP ($4.06)
CO ($11.32)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A

, K

1 fold, MP raises to $0.50, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.50, 1 fold, BB raises to $1.90, MP raises to $4.06 (All-In), Hero raises to $13.33 (All-In), BB calls $9.33 (All-In)

^^^ when middle positiong shoves, is there really any reason for me to overshove when im already pretty sure BB is already interested in the hand and my AK could be running very thin? shouldnt i just be folding here and just losing .50 cents?

Flop: ($26.57) J

, 4

, 10

(3 players, 3 all-in)

Turn: ($26.57) 6

(3 players, 3 all-in)

River: ($26.57) 10

(3 players, 3 all-in)

Total pot: $26.57 | Rake: $1.32

Results below:

Spoiler

Hero had A

, K

(one pair, tens).
BB had K

, A

(flush, Ace high).
MP had Q

, Q

(two pair, Queens and tens).
Outcome: BB won $25.25

this hand wasnt commented on. Anyone folding this pre? or do we GII and if its a cooler, its a cooler?

 

[micromachine]

^^ depends how nitty the villains (particularly BB) are. Can't you copy hands directly from HM2 so the player stats will be included (and it will be easier for you too…)?

 

[vinylspiros]

^^ depends how nitty the villains (particularly BB) are. Can't you copy hands directly from HM2 so the player stats will be included (and it will be easier for you too…)?

how? Didnt even know i can do that. I mean i go to HM2 and then export it to my desktop, then i just copy it from desktop and paste into converter.

 

[BluffMeAllIn]

this hand wasnt commented on. Anyone folding this pre? or do we GII and if its a cooler, its a cooler?

quickly the only comment I would make is that in an almost identical scenario you folded KK so given that would AK not be an automuck to the reraise and then shove? Just my thought in relation to a previous scenario you folded much stronger, could depend on villian stats perhaps etc.

 

[vinylspiros]

^^ depends how nitty the villains (particularly BB) are. Can't you copy hands directly from HM2 so the player stats will be included (and it will be easier for you too…)?

how? Didnt even know i can do that. I mean i go to HM2 and then export it to my desktop, then i just copy it from desktop and paste into converter. and they dont show up.

 

[vinylspiros]

quickly the only comment I would make is that in an almost identical scenario you folded KK so given that would AK not be an automuck to the reraise and then shove? Just my thought in relation to a previous scenario you folded much stronger, could depend on villian stats perhaps etc.

Exactly bro, and THATS why i know im not on my A-GAME. Ive folded sets on the rivers of relatively dry boards cause i was sure villain was on a higher set and im overshoving AKs pre here. .............

 

[Figaroo2]

In the circumstances getting it in against AK and QQ was about as good as you could hope for . Lucky not to have run into Aces or kings really.. The stats of the players would be really important in helping my decision here. The bb could just be squeezing. Id want to look at how often he does that and how tight he is generally . If the lead better is a rock i may fold. if he's loose the shove seems ok. This is the essence of squeezing it put you in a difficult spot with an aggressive player still to act.

 

[micromachine]

how? Didnt even know i can do that. I mean i go to HM2 and then export it to my desktop, then i just copy it from desktop and paste into converter. and they dont show up.

I use PT4 and there is an option to copy the HH in forum format and you can choose whether to display results etc, I don't know about HEM2 but I would've thought it would have a similar feature...

 

[redwards92]

in HM2 you just have to right click the hand I think but I'm not sure if it auto converts it there or you have to use converter.

From what I remember I was also using a converter when I was using HM2. I think you can right click and hit "copy with stats" though to include them.

 

[Logan2]

copy with stats, paste here http://www.handconverter.com/

Where it say Hand History here

output format option on hpBB Forums or stats don´t show

convert. copy paste in the thread.
​