RING: Why do people NOT like short stackers?

[RogueRivered]

OK well think of it like this

If they were only shoving premium hands then why would they buy in SS and not DS?

SS play looser than you think.

Maybe there's more than one way to play SS Strategy. I've never seen it at higher levels, so it's probably more nuanced. But at microstakes, a good SS player will only play the premium hands, and play them fast.

The reason playing that way with a deep stack isn't so good is, do you really want to commit with top pair or AK? With a 20 BB stack, sure, you're committed. But if you have 100 or 200 BBs, if all the money goes in, you are probably behind with only one pair. That's why deep stackers like things like suited connectors -- they have lots of implied odds and their hand can be more hidden. Short stackers ruin their implied odds. Bad shortstackers play all sorts of bad hands. You shouldn't mind getting in pots with them.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

Maybe there's more than one way to play SS Strategy. I've never seen it at higher levels, so it's probably more nuanced. But at microstakes, a good SS player will only play the premium hands, and play them fast.

The reason playing that way with a deep stack isn't so good is, do you really want to commit with top pair or AK? With a 20 BB stack, sure, you're committed. But if you have 100 or 200 BBs, if all the money goes in, you are probably behind with only one pair. That's why deep stackers like things like suited connectors -- they have lots of implied odds and their hand can be more hidden. Short stackers ruin their implied odds.

No there is only one way.

The other is to buy in for 20BB and play incorrectly for that amount.

Against a SS it is literally Shove or fold. I don't mean they shove a lot I mean it is the ONLY thing they do... and their range is greater than premium hands!!!

You will rarely see a decent SS under 200NL

 

[Mase31683]

The Vegas casino I played in was 40 BBs and at Turning Stone it's 50 BBs.

This is the same at the casinos near me, however 40-50bb is just fine for shortstack strategy. Raising to 4-5bb isn't anywhere close to out of the ordinary, so it's still quite easy to manipulate pot sizes to those favorable to the short stacks, effectively crushing implied odds.

People do shortstack live too, but they usually aren't doing it correctly. They're still limping and trying to play hands they shouldn't, lol.

 

[ct82]

Well not in my experience, but they do adjust for position as I mentioned.

As for why they don't just buy in for deep stacks and then just push premium hands it's because for a deep stack game it's a recipe for disaster. Besides being totally obvious and exploitable playing this way, as the stacks get deep the difference between lets say a pair of Aces and a 76 suited is not as great as it is if the stacks were smaller.

The reason is simple, if the stacks are small let's say the aces raise the 76s calls and almost every time the aces are going to get all their money with an overwhelming advantage as the 76 needs a pretty good flop to continue.

But when the stacks are deep the situation is totally different the 76s can risk a small % of their stack to see the flop then they choose to continue, A hand like 76s in a deep stack situation has time to develop. Let's say I'm sitting with 2000 in front of me in a 5-10 game and my opponent who also has 2000 raises to 30 and I call. I'm risking 1.5% of my stack right now. But it's a small risk for a potentially huge reward if the situation is right.

Now change it, and both of us have like 300. Then to call a raise of 30 is risking 10% of my stack obviously bad if he has a premium hand cause there isn't enough money to be won and my hand can't develop.

If the short stackers bought in deep and played only premium hands they'd find themselves in the situation where they would win small pots with their premium hands, only to go on to lose huge pots when their premium hands were beaten by getting outflopped/outdrawn.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

If the short stackers bought in deep and played only premium hands they'd find themselves in the situation where they would win small pots with their premium hands, only to go on to lose huge pots when their premium hands were beaten by getting outflopped/outdrawn.

Not really

AA is an 81% favourite preflop because it wins 81% of pots

Sometimes it will be outdrawn but usualy it isnt and it will cost you your entire stack to see if you can outflop it.

SS buy in SS because SS stratagy does not involve shoving just premium hands.

 

[RogueRivered]

Well not in my experience, but they do adjust for position as I mentioned.

As for why they don't just buy in for deep stacks and then just push premium hands it's because for a deep stack game it's a recipe for disaster. Besides being totally obvious and exploitable playing this way, as the stacks get deep the difference between lets say a pair of Aces and a 76 suited is not as great as it is if the stacks were smaller.

The reason is simple, if the stacks are small let's say the aces raise the 76s calls and almost every time the aces are going to get all their money with an overwhelming advantage as the 76 needs a pretty good flop to continue.

But when the stacks are deep the situation is totally different the 76s can risk a small % of their stack to see the flop then they choose to continue, A hand like 76s in a deep stack situation has time to develop. Let's say I'm sitting with 2000 in front of me in a 5-10 game and my opponent who also has 2000 raises to 30 and I call. I'm risking 1.5% of my stack right now. But it's a small risk for a potentially huge reward if the situation is right.

Now change it, and both of us have like 300. Then to call a raise of 30 is risking 10% of my stack obviously bad if he has a premium hand cause there isn't enough money to be won and my hand can't develop.

If the short stackers bought in deep and played only premium hands they'd find themselves in the situation where they would win small pots with their premium hands, only to go on to lose huge pots when their premium hands were beaten by getting outflopped/outdrawn.

Not really

AA is an 81% favourite preflop because it wins 81% of pots

Sometimes it will be outdrawn but usualy it isnt and it will cost you your entire stack to see if you can outflop it.

SS buy in SS because SS stratagy does not involve shoving just premium hands.

ct82, I think Stu is just doing this to tilt us. He never agrees with anything I say.

 

[ct82]

ct82, I think Stu is just doing this to tilt us. He never agrees with anything I say.

Either he really has no idea about NL hold'em whatsoever or he plays SS himself and is trying to convince people hes NOT pushing with premium hands so they call him more often. But whatever I'm moving on to other threads haha.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

ct82, I think Stu is just doing this to tilt us. He never agrees with anything I say.

Either he really has no idea about NL hold'em whatsoever or he plays SS himself and is trying to convince people hes NOT pushing with premium hands so they call him more often. But whatever I'm moving on to other threads haha.

Belgio made these posts earlier in the thread. You would do well to read and understand them as the are probably the best explaination of SS stratagy I have ever read.

ok, so i open BTN for 3.5bb, SS villain is in BB and decides whether to shove his 20bb stack or not.

when he shoves and i fold, he wins 5 bb (3.5bb plus the blinds)
when he shoves, i call and he wins, he gets a 18.5 bb gain (20.5bb - 5% rake on the 40.5 bb pot)
when he shoves, i call and i win, he looses 19bb (1bb is lost anyway through blinds)

if i open a x% range on the BTN and i call with a y% range, i fold (y-x)/x % of the time. For each hand, villain can also compute his equity e against my calling range y using pokerstove.

EV(x,y) = 5 * (y-x)/x + 18.5 * y/x * e - 19 * y/x * (1-e)

Now all he has to do is estimate x and y to determine if pushing a given hand is +EV or -EV. He knows x from my BTN stealing range stat in his HUD. He can either use y from the call 3bet range stat or, if he respects me, he can assume i'll play perfect and minimise EV(x,y) with respect to y.

A really good shortstacker (400nl+) has made these computations beforehand and knows the ranges he can push depending on the BTN stealing range and whether he opens 2, 2.5, 3, 3.5 or 4bb. An excellent shortstacker will adapt those ranges if he sees i don't adjust my y properly.

BTW, the larger you open on the BTN, the easier it is for the SS to resteal shove, so you should open to 2 or 2.5bb at most when a SS is in the blinds.

Example. I steal 40% from the BTN and i call a shove with {TT+,AQs+,KQs,AQo+} which is a top 5% range. So his EV for shoving is

EV = 5 * 0.875 + 18.5 * 0.125 * e - 19 * 0.125 * (1-e)
= 2 + 4.6875 e

where e is the equity of the SS hand against {TT+,AQs+,KQs,AQo+}. Note that this is always positive because we fold too much to his 3bet, so he can profitably shove any two cards.

For instance, for 72o, we have

Hand 0: 77.726% 79.32% 00.25% 975128631 3087643.50 { TT+, AQs+, KQs, AQo+ }
Hand 1: 22.274% 22.55% 00.25% 277239522 3087643.50 { 72o }

so pushing 72o is worth about 3bb.

 

[RogueRivered]

Belgio made these posts earlier in the thread. You would do well to read and understand them as the are probably the best explaination of SS stratagy I have ever read.

I followed one of the players Belgo suggested earlier ITT, tougherfish. He didn't do any of the things you are saying. I saw him go all-in with AA, AK twice, and two pair in the BB. Everything else he folded. He didn't push top pair, bad kicker. He didn't push middle or bottom pair. He didn't rathole; he didn't reload to 20BB. He didn't steal from the blinds hardly at all. People stole from him right and left. Table Ratings has him as 89% tighter than other players at that level. From what I could see, he was kind of a poor SSer, and yet he was still a slightly winning player. Considering the stakes he was playing (2-4nl) and the number of hands (3,000 in a session), his profit looked decent, but a good SSer should be able to do better, if what I've read is correct (Ed Miller's book and several web sites).

 

[widowmaker89]

After reading this thread all I can say is:

AK is a drawing hand and 22 is a favorite...

 

[RogueRivered]

After reading this thread all I can say is:

AK is a drawing hand and 22 is a favorite...

But JTs is a favorite over 22, and AKo is a favorite over JTs -- go figure.

Another shortstacker I watched was this guy (he's up about $47,000):

http://www.pokertableratings.com/fulltilt-player-search/ingolmax

He plays a classic short stack game -- tighter than 93.5 of his opponents and hyperagressive after that.

I think part of his success is that the deep stacks sure were playing stupid against him. They thought they could bluff him off his hands with pretty weak holdings. They should know that's not going to work. If he's in the pot, he's committed.

 

[zachvac]

I don't have any problem with someone wanting to make money -- if you call that greed, OK. But the kind of greed I'm talking about is when you lose sight of right and wrong in your pursuit of MORE. I don't think it's right to berate players who are playing within the rules. I don't think it's right to call new players names when they are just getting their feet wet. I don't think it's right to encourage inexperienced players to put max money on the table against better players. I don't think it's right to tell players to play within their bankroll and then go after them if they don't have enough to buy in deep.

The bankroll argument is completely wrong. Read up on risk of ruin. I have no problem with inexperienced/new/bad players buying in short. I'd love for a new guy who sucks at poker to sit with $40 at 200nl with me rather than play 25nl and be able to reload full at 25nl. It's the pro shortstackers who simply play it and rathole that I have a problem with. Those people know exactly what they're doing and are not getting their feet wet, inexperienced, and they certainly have plenty to buy in deep if they want.

I definitely agree with you that SS strategy is BORING. It doesn't feel like real poker.

Do you agree it is also boring to play against? Do you also agree that fish may get bored playing against it and take their dead money and run?

I've tried it and can't say that I like it. But it serves a purpose at times, like trying to clear a bonus. I bet some of you good players have done that even while you rail at others. As someone else said, your beef should be with the sites not the players. If you can convince them to change the rules to suit you, more power to you. Just be respectful of your opponents, even if they don't play like you do.

lol why would you do it to clear a bonus? If you're a good deepstacked player it makes no sense to shortstack. And respect is earned, if you are going to exploit the rules with no real skill and take some of my profits, I really don't respect you plain and simple.

Actually, from what I've read about SS strategy, he pretty much nailed it. They are looking to play premium hands and get all the money in while they are still in the lead.

Or not, read the thread. They exploit the fact that you open wide and thus they have a lot of fold equity by shoving over you. I'm fine with people just playing premiums. I can handle nits fine whether they have 20 BBs or 100. Just fold when they get involved because they have the nuts.

By reducing the number of betting rounds, they take away the post-flop skill of their opponents. If a short-stacker knows that a deep-stacked player is playing trash from the button while trying to steal, it's pretty obvious that he is right to push over the top with good cards.

He's also right to push over with an extremely wide range. The worse the opener's range is the more FE you have thus the less value the cards themselves have to have. Pretty simple poker theory.

Yeah they do, they might adjust starting hands for position like if a guy raises on the button they will push with more hands versus if they are facing a raise from UTG but for the most part they sit and wait for premium hands then push all in or fold.

What limits do you play? Am I right to guess 50nl or lower? When you're against idiots who just call off with bad hands against a nit (whether they're shortstacked or deepstacked) obviously it's profitable to just nut mine. But against good players they'll realize you're a nit and not give you action and you leave a lot of money on the table by not taking advantage of your FE by shoving wide.

Well not in my experience, but they do adjust for position as I mentioned.

As for why they don't just buy in for deep stacks and then just push premium hands it's because for a deep stack game it's a recipe for disaster. Besides being totally obvious and exploitable playing this way, as the stacks get deep the difference between lets say a pair of Aces and a 76 suited is not as great as it is if the stacks were smaller.

The reason is simple, if the stacks are small let's say the aces raise the 76s calls and almost every time the aces are going to get all their money with an overwhelming advantage as the 76 needs a pretty good flop to continue.

But when the stacks are deep the situation is totally different the 76s can risk a small % of their stack to see the flop then they choose to continue, A hand like 76s in a deep stack situation has time to develop. Let's say I'm sitting with 2000 in front of me in a 5-10 game and my opponent who also has 2000 raises to 30 and I call. I'm risking 1.5% of my stack right now. But it's a small risk for a potentially huge reward if the situation is right.

Now change it, and both of us have like 300. Then to call a raise of 30 is risking 10% of my stack obviously bad if he has a premium hand cause there isn't enough money to be won and my hand can't develop.

If the short stackers bought in deep and played only premium hands they'd find themselves in the situation where they would win small pots with their premium hands, only to go on to lose huge pots when their premium hands were beaten by getting outflopped/outdrawn.

This is true, but it doesn't change the fact that against good opponents (with fish obv but say average 200nl online game) a strategy of playing only premiums doesn't work.

 

[RogueRivered]

The bankroll argument is completely wrong. Read up on risk of ruin. I have no problem with inexperienced/new/bad players buying in short. I'd love for a new guy who sucks at poker to sit with $40 at 200nl with me rather than play 25nl and be able to reload full at 25nl. It's the pro shortstackers who simply play it and rathole that I have a problem with. Those people know exactly what they're doing and are not getting their feet wet, inexperienced, and they certainly have plenty to buy in deep if they want.

Well, of course the bankroll argument is not wrong. I should know -- when I started I had to buy in short in order to avoid going over bankroll guidelines. Once I had enough to buy in full, I did.

I've seen so many people on here asking about moving to ring from tournaments, and most everyone tells them to buy in deep. Bad advice, unless they don't mind losing their roll while they're learning.

Do you agree it is also boring to play against? Do you also agree that fish may get bored playing against it and take their dead money and run?

1. No, it's just part of the game. You deal with it. 2. No, fish won't notice anyway.

lol why would you do it to clear a bonus? If you're a good deepstacked player it makes no sense to shortstack. And respect is earned, if you are going to exploit the rules with no real skill and take some of my profits, I really don't respect you plain and simple.

Simple. In order to get more FPPs with a limited roll. It takes forever at the lowest limits, but you can get FPPs faster while lowering your risk by shortstacking. I've heard really good players on here admit that they do that sometimes.

So by default, you don't respect people? And who says buying in deep isn't exploiting the rules just as much as buying in short?

Or not, read the thread. They exploit the fact that you open wide and thus they have a lot of fold equity by shoving over you. I'm fine with people just playing premiums. I can handle nits fine whether they have 20 BBs or 100. Just fold when they get involved because they have the nuts.

If they know you are opening wide, and you know that they know, and they know that you know that they know, etc. They've found a way to counteract your wide stealing. How are you going to counteract them?

He's also right to push over with an extremely wide range. The worse the opener's range is the more FE you have thus the less value the cards themselves have to have. Pretty simple poker theory.

Sounds like they've done their homework against the regs, or at least played with them long enough to develop a large database.

What limits do you play? Am I right to guess 50nl or lower? When you're against idiots who just call off with bad hands against a nit (whether they're shortstacked or deepstacked) obviously it's profitable to just nut mine. But against good players they'll realize you're a nit and not give you action and you leave a lot of money on the table by not taking advantage of your FE by shoving wide.

I'll bet most good shortstackers are nits, so when are the good players going to stop paying them off?

This is true, but it doesn't change the fact that against good opponents (with fish obv but say average 200nl online game) a strategy of playing only premiums doesn't work.

Seems to work for quite a lot of them.

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

Seems to work for quite a lot of them.

what limits do you play?

 

[zachvac]

Well, of course the bankroll argument is not wrong. I should know -- when I started I had to buy in short in order to avoid going over bankroll guidelines. Once I had enough to buy in full, I did.

I've seen so many people on here asking about moving to ring from tournaments, and most everyone tells them to buy in deep. Bad advice, unless they don't mind losing their roll while they're learning.

Do you have any clue about risk of ruin? Do you have any idea about the variance of shortstacking vs. fullstacking? Do you have any clue how BRM requirements were actually decided? Didn't think so. Google risk of ruin and do a bit of research.

1. No, it's just part of the game. You deal with it. 2. No, fish won't notice anyway.

lol this is entertaining. Do you not realize that when you are HU against a shortstack you are essentially a shortstack as well? Yet shortstacking is boring but playing against them is just part of the game you deal with? Also if it is boring you can bet fish will notice it. They are playing to have fun and if they are playing a boring style (which you admit shortstacking is and by extension playing against a shortstacker is) I'm sure they can find something else more fun to do.

Simple. In order to get more FPPs with a limited roll. It takes forever at the lowest limits, but you can get FPPs faster while lowering your risk by shortstacking. I've heard really good players on here admit that they do that sometimes.

I have yet to see proof that shortstacking lowers risk. If you are 1-tabling or something and have a 1 buy-in stop loss I agree with you. However most normal poker players actually play quite a few hands and since the variance is so much worse shortstacking you really don't have that much less chance of going bust. Again read up on risk of ruin and maybe you'll understand a bit more.

So by default, you don't respect people? And who says buying in deep isn't exploiting the rules just as much as buying in short?

hmm, maybe because in the original form (live) of the game the minimum buy-in is usually 40-50 BBs? Maybe because buying in deep quite simply is not exploiting the rules at all? A deepstack simply can not exploit a shortstack any more than a shortstack can. To the shortstack all other stack sizes are the same. A shortstack on the other hand can exploit the deepstack because to the deepstack the shortstacks and deepstacks are different. So that's how I can say that.

If they know you are opening wide, and you know that they know, and they know that you know that they know, etc. They've found a way to counteract your wide stealing. How are you going to counteract them?

Since they shove top of their range the only way to counteract them is to not steal as much which is pointless because your profits when the deepstack fish calls and the shortstack folds will be a lot more than when you have to fold to the shortstack shove.

Sounds like they've done their homework against the regs, or at least played with them long enough to develop a large database.

Well yeah, they don't have to think much so it's quite easy to play a ton of hands and they probably have tens of thousands of hands on most regs. Not sure what that has to do with anything though.

I'll bet most good shortstackers are nits, so when are the good players going to stop paying them off?

lol you're kidding right? This is just plain wrong from a theoretical point of view and realistically. The big winning shortstackers that play the mid-high stakes (not so much high because they almost always are playing deep tables to avoid shortstackers) all re-steal extremely wide. It's a fact. Just because the shortstackers at your games wherever you play are exploiting the moron regs doesn't mean that at higher stakes nitting it up as a shortstacker is profitable.

Seems to work for quite a lot of them.

lol because they're playing at lower stakes. Show me a solid winning shortstacker at 400nl+ who is a nit. Oh wait that's right you can't. Some of the rakeback pros are nits but the real winners are the ones re-stealing well and adjusting to the re-stealing ranges of regs.

 

[zachvac]

what limits do you play?

Limits Played:
Low $ MTTs, 2nl, 5nl

 

[kidkvno1]

No you haven't!!!

You cannot trap the SS, you just think you are trapping.

You enter the pot with a range.

SS knows this range.

SS has calculated that you will fold x% of that to a shove.
SS has calculated that you will call y%
of y% he has calculated he will win Z

Sometimes you will open with the top of your range... and win.. but the rest of the time you will either lose the shove or fold. This winrate can be calculated because of the 20BB ceiling.

The winrate is a mathematical auto profit.

I should say, that some picked the wrong time to shove, well i was in the hand.
They don't seam to win as much when i am in a hand with them..

OK well think of it like this

If they were only shoving premium hands then why would they buy in SS and not DS?

SS play looser than you think.

This is true, they are loose.

No there is only one way.

The other is to buy in for 20BB and play incorrectly for that amount.

Against a SS it is literally Shove or fold. I don't mean they shove a lot I mean it is the ONLY thing they do... and their range is greater than premium hands!!!

You will rarely see a decent SS under 200NL

I have seen some bad SS players, they will call you on str8s, a flush.
I am the first to shove, and a good amount that will put them all-in
Thought, i have not been on the ring tables, for a week, and i think it is time to play them again.

 

[zachvac]

I have seen some bad SS players, they will call you on str8s, a flush.

Have you read the thread at all? How do you make a straight or flush preflop?

 

[Stu_Ungar]

I have seen some bad SS players, they will call you on str8s, a flush.
I am the first to shove, and a good amount that will put them all-in
Thought, i have not been on the ring tables, for a week, and i think it is time to play them again.

???????????

 

[NoWuckingFurries]

Why have you attributed something that kidkvno1 said, to EgonTowst? :icon_scra

 

[Stu_Ungar]

Why have you attributed something that kidkvno1 said, to EgonTowst? :icon_scra

No idea.

I didn't notice, just hit the quote button.

Certainly not intentional.

 

[kidkvno1]

Have you read the thread at all? How do you make a straight or flush preflop?

This would be post flop...

???????????

Well best to sum it up. I was, and still do short stacking, from time to time, i know how to take them out..
I will try to get a week of stats, well playing SS. Min buy-in at a 9 player table on UB is .80..
All was going great, till some donkeys called my raise preflop.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

This would be post flop...

There is no postflop in SS strategy.

If you do anything other than shove preflop then its not SS strategy.

So I assume you mean that when you shoved and were called preflop sometimes opponents caught flushes or straights.

It happens but so long as your estimate of their range is accurate, and you feed that info into the EV calculation from above, the fact that they catch fom time to time dosen't really matter.


I dont think you can profitably play SS under 200NL because the SS edge is small and I think the rake will eat into it.

 

[GeoffLacey]

Good that Rogue and ct evidently made the attempt to understand what Belgo and Zachvac have been trying to say

 

[kidkvno1]

There is no postflop in SS strategy.

If you do anything other than shove preflop then its not SS strategy.

So I assume you mean that when you shoved and were called preflop sometimes opponents caught flushes or straights.

Yep but only sometimes.

It happens but so long as your estimate of their range is accurate, and you feed that info into the EV calculation from above, the fact that they catch fom time to time dosen't really matter.


I dont think you can profitably play SS under 200NL because the SS edge is small and I think the rake will eat into it.

Well i do have a postflop, prefolp strategy. Bet just the right amount to get callers, to see the flop, then shove all-in. It worked with KK, AA 2 times.
The rake on UB, seams to be smaller, in 2nl.