RING: Why do people NOT like short stackers?

[zachvac]

ok but seriously, brm says no such thing. Someone with a bigger winrate needs less of a bankroll to play and someone with lower variance needs less to play. A shortstack strategy has extremely high variance, I don't talk to shortstackers so I wouldn't know but if you know one ask what their standard deviation is. You can use winrate and standard deviation and a certain risk of ruin to calculate how much you need to play with. There are places you can find info on this on google so I'm not going to waste my time on them, but yeah BRM is just a rough estimate based on that and the general rule is 20 max buy-ins. But again if you barely win you need way more and obv if you don't win no amount of buy-ins is enough and your variance matters as well.

 

[cardplayer52]

Really? That's like "Fold Equity 101". How can you play NL poker if you don't think like that? You should be thinking like that for every single bet you make (although it gets quite more complex in multi street poker where you have to figure out what happens on later streets)



[ ] understands what's been discussed in this thread

ok i might not get it totally. but i were to make min bet steals 30% and 4xbb 10% of the time. wouldnt the SS see my steal rate as 40% and shove w/any 2? so i fold 3/4 of the time but the times i call i got him crushed. i havent gone into the math but the idea would be to min bet just to get them to shove light on me. is there nothing to this?

 

[Stick66]

ok i might not get it totally. but i were to make min bet steals 30% and 4xbb 10% of the time. wouldnt the SS see my steal rate as 40% and shove w/any 2? so i fold 3/4 of the time but the times i call i got him crushed. i havent gone into the math but the idea would be to min bet just to get them to shove light on me. is there nothing to this?

From what I gather here, you have to consider this PLUS his stack size. The object should be to stack him, not just steal from him. If his stack is too small, the implied odds to take risks like draws and setmining aren't there. Post-flop actions should be considered, also.

 

[kidkvno1]

ok but seriously, brm says no such thing. Someone with a bigger winrate needs less of a bankroll to play and someone with lower variance needs less to play. A shortstack strategy has extremely high variance, I don't talk to shortstackers so I wouldn't know but if you know one ask what their standard deviation is. You can use winrate and standard deviation and a certain risk of ruin to calculate how much you need to play with. There are places you can find info on this on google so I'm not going to waste my time on them, but yeah BRM is just a rough estimate based on that and the general rule is 20 max buy-ins. But again if you barely win you need way more and obv if you don't win no amount of buy-ins is enough and your variance matters as well.

Ok, I may try it out and get some stats, on it... But for as many players, i have seen SS, then to have more then, what they came in with... And i am talking about, them having 2 times the amount, but having 7.00 or more..

 

[zachvac]

Ok, I may try it out and get some stats, on it... But for as many players, i have seen SS, then to have more then, what they came in with... And i am talking about, them having 2 times the amount, but having 7.00 or more..

Not sure how to respond to this because I have no idea what you're saying. Can you please re-phrase? I'm just not sure what you're trying to say.

 

[BelgoSuisse]

ok i might not get it totally. but i were to make min bet steals 30% and 4xbb 10% of the time. wouldnt the SS see my steal rate as 40% and shove w/any 2? so i fold 3/4 of the time but the times i call i got him crushed. i havent gone into the math but the idea would be to min bet just to get them to shove light on me. is there nothing to this?

[ ] varying your open-raising amount according to the strength of your hand is unexploitable.

 

[bob_tiger]

[ ] varying your open-raising amount according to the strength of your hand is unexploitable.

[ ] nobody would ever notice

 

[kidkvno1]

Ok, I may try it out and get some stats, on it... But for as many players, i have seen SS, then to have more then, what they came in with... And i am talking about, them having 2 times the amount, but having 7.00 or more..

Not sure how to respond to this because I have no idea what you're saying. Can you please re-phrase? I'm just not sure what you're trying to say.

ok, some short stacker's are so good, they go in with .30 and come out way ahead, with 7.00 bucks or more. And there tight players.
I need to short stack, so i play better hands..
I don't know if you ever seen me short stacked, in any games,,, but i tend to do better.

I will try to get data on playing short stacked, post it, and starting Monday.

 

[jdeliverer]

ok, some short stacker's are so good, they go in with .30 and come out way ahead, with 7.00 bucks or more. And there tight players.
I need to short stack, so i play better hands..
I don't know if you ever seen me short stacked, in any games,,, but i tend to do better.

I will try to get data on playing short stacked, post it, and starting Monday.

A shortstacker will never go from 30 cents to 7 dollars...

 

[kidkvno1]

A shortstacker will never go from 30 cents to 7 dollars...

Well you did not see it, but i did, and last night:joyman: thought even tho i did 2.00 buy-in on UB, lost some..

 

[jdeliverer]

Well you did not see it, but i did, and last night:joyman: thought even tho i did 2.00 buy-in on UB, lost some..

That's not a shortstacker. That's a lucky idiot.

 

[cAPSLOCK]

Also.. the "shortstackers" being discussed in this thread are using a strategy that is almost certainly NEVER being used where you would go from "30 cents to 7 dollars".

It kinda couldn't since it requires at least a few players at the table with some actual pre flop strategy to work. If 5 people call your mighty 30 cent push...

 

[zachvac]

ok, some short stacker's are so good, they go in with .30 and come out way ahead, with 7.00 bucks or more. And there tight players.
I need to short stack, so i play better hands..
I don't know if you ever seen me short stacked, in any games,,, but i tend to do better.

I will try to get data on playing short stacked, post it, and starting Monday.

lol guess you missed the thread, playing only good hands as a shortstack is not going to win much other than against total idiots, and against total idiots you want to have the most at the table to just take them to valuetown all day. If you're a shortstack you should be doing things like shoving over an open with QJ if they steal a lot.

 

[RogueRivered]

Taking away the rights of some for some ill-conceived notion of "greater good" is ridiculous. Society is composed entirely of individuals, nothing else. By removing the rights of some individuals, you harm society as a whole.

Does this apply to shortstackers? Are you sharpie337 on 2+2?

 

[richardAA]

i think shortstack is unpopular because it easily beats deeper stacks. shortstack has an unfair advantage because of the rules of the game

i read this
(deleted link)

its only natural that deepstacks will hate shortstacks because shortstacks edge comes from exploiting deepstack players

 

[Stu_Ungar]

i think shortstack is unpopular because it easily beats deeper stacks. shortstack has an unfair advantage because of the rules of the game

i read this

its only natural that deepstacks will hate shortstacks because shortstacks edge comes from exploiting deepstack players

You are halfway there.

SS strategy does not easily beat DSs

SS strategy is a simple shove or fold stratagy which DS can adjust to.

However these adjustments reduce the DS winrate against OTHER DS's

Its this point which makes them so disliked!

 

[zachvac]

Does this apply to shortstackers? Are you sharpie337 on 2+2?

No I'm zachvac on 2p2, and shortstacking is not a right. What's your point?

 

[NoWuckingFurries]

Surely short-stacking is just as much "a right" as deep-stacking is?

 

[RogueRivered]

No I'm zachvac on 2p2, and shortstacking is not a right. What's your point?

It's a nice quote -- I was wondering who to attribute it to. After reading the thread for 2 1/2 hours to get caught up, I noticed the quote and thought it was interestingly applicable to some of the posts suggesting shortstacking wasn't right.

 

[kidkvno1]

That's not a shortstacker. That's a lucky idiot.

Also.. the "shortstackers" being discussed in this thread are using a strategy that is almost certainly NEVER being used where you would go from "30 cents to 7 dollars".

It kinda couldn't since it requires at least a few players at the table with some actual pre flop strategy to work. If 5 people call your mighty 30 cent push...

lol guess you missed the thread, playing only good hands as a shortstack is not going to win much other than against total idiots, and against total idiots you want to have the most at the table to just take them to valuetown all day. If you're a shortstack you should be doing things like shoving over an open with QJ if they steal a lot.

1st hand he had AA, just about everyone, called his all-in..
Some hands in to it, he gets KK, same thing again.

There are so many loose players, on UB, they will call you on any hand:joyman:.

Thought, i don't have that type, of luck, when i have the max buy-in. I see more Pocket Aces, then i get.:joyman:

 

[ct82]

It changes the nature of the game if there are shortstackers at the table. A deep stack is really no advantage against them as the extra chips are meaningless. I don't like playing against them simply because almost all of them are completely mechanical, all they do is push with premiums hands and fold everything else.

I'm trying to better my game and what can I really learn by playing in a pot with a short stacker who bought in for 20 BBs? Almost zero. I steal their blinds mercilessly and I know if they are in the pot 90% of the time they have a great hand. I see shortstackers on FT who have VPIPs of 4 and play ten tables at once. These guys just wait for AA, KK, QQ, or AK and push all in, what kind of skill does that take?

On the other hand in a deep stack situation the hand can develop over multiple betting rounds and there's chances for maneuvering and winning the opponents stack with deceptive hands.

 

[kidkvno1]

It changes the nature of the game if there are shortstackers at the table. A deep stack is really no advantage against them as the extra chips are meaningless. I don't like playing against them simply because almost all of them are completely mechanical, all they do is push with premiums hands and fold everything else.

I'm trying to better my game and what can I really learn by playing in a pot with a short stacker who bought in for 20 BBs? Almost zero. I steal their blinds mercilessly and I know if they are in the pot 90% of the time they have a great hand. I see shortstackers on FT who have VPIPs of 4 and play ten tables at once. These guys just wait for AA, KK, QQ, or AK and push all in, what kind of skill does that take?

On the other hand in a deep stack situation the hand can develop over multiple betting rounds and there's chances for maneuvering and winning the opponents stack with deceptive hands.

ok, You play DS, now how many times, have you played AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AK and lost the pot?? I have lost a lot of hands, do to them thinking i was bluffing.:joyman:
If a SS knows, how you play they will stay out of the pot.

 

[zachvac]

Surely short-stacking is just as much "a right" as deep-stacking is?

lol neither are rights. Maybe read the Constitution or basically just any political theory and realize what a right is?

hint: individuals have rights and they are protected from the government and have nothing to do with playing poker as once you go on a poker site it is their rules and you basically have no rights other than those in the toc (aka they won't steal your money and the cards will be dealt randomly rules of poker followed etc.). poker sites don't have to let you buy in at all so saying that buying in with a specific stack size is a right is just kinda dumb.

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

ok, You play DS, now how many times, have you played AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AK and lost the pot?? I have lost a lot of hands, do to them thinking i was bluffing.:joyman:
If a SS knows, how you play they will stay out of the pot.

wat

 

[NoWuckingFurries]

lol neither are rights. Maybe read the Constitution or basically just any political theory and realize what a right is?

hint: individuals have rights and they are protected from the government and have nothing to do with playing poker as once you go on a poker site it is their rules and you basically have no rights other than those in the toc (aka they won't steal your money and the cards will be dealt randomly rules of poker followed etc.). Poker sites don't have to let you buy in at all so saying that buying in with a specific stack size is a right is just kinda dumb.

What I actually said is that neither is more of a right than the other, I didn't say that it was a right. Hint: the American constitution doesn't apply to me, and there is no chance whatsoever of me reading it.