C
ct82
Rising Star
Bronze Level
Seconded. Please clarify the post.
Seconded. Please clarify the post.
jdeliverer
Legend
Silver Level
He is upset because the SS (being not real SS in all likelihood) do not realize that he plays very tight. He is complaining that he gets called when he has a superior hand preflop and loses because they think he is bluffing and sucked out.
Cliff notes: BBV
Stu_Ungar
Legend
Silver Level
The villains you describe are playing the exact opposite of SS strategy.
zachvac
Legend
Silver Level
ok then w/e governing document in w/e country you live in. Glad you have an open mind though learning about other governments. But really the definition of right can simply be found in an English language dictionary. Or is that above you too? Ah well. I never claimed deepstacking was a right either. Someone quoted my signature and I responded to that. Period. Neither are rights. Don't try to quote me and use my words against me when you don't even know what the words I'm using mean. Not directed at you, just generally. I stand by my signature 100% (it is from 2p2 though and I considered giving credit then realized he probably got it from somewehere else too etc.) but I stand by what it actually says and if someone thinks that either shortstacking or deepstacking is a "right", then they really don't understand my signature.
RogueRivered
Visionary
Silver Level
Right: something to which one has a just claim: as a: the power or privilege to which one is justly entitled (Merriam Webster)
The poker sites decide what our rights are -- if we choose to play, then we must abide by those rights. There should be no moral judgment of playing any way you see fit within the confines of those rights (or rules, if you prefer). In buy-ins, there is an upper limit and a lower limit. There are reasons the sites set these limits and legitimate reasons why any given player would choose either the highest or lowest of these limits or anywhere in between. It's up to the other players to accept that and shape their own games as best they can to deal with it. What else is there to say? Not much, in my opinion.
The poker sites decide what our rights are -- if we choose to play, then we must abide by those rights. There should be no moral judgment of playing any way you see fit within the confines of those rights (or rules, if you prefer). In buy-ins, there is an upper limit and a lower limit. There are reasons the sites set these limits and legitimate reasons why any given player would choose either the highest or lowest of these limits or anywhere in between. It's up to the other players to accept that and shape their own games as best they can to deal with it. What else is there to say? Not much, in my opinion.
NoWuckingFurries
Legend
Silver Level
I don't disagree with your signature, and I know what rights are. I just dislike the presumption by some people in this thread that short-stackers have no right to exist, whereas deep-stackers are some sort of wonderful person that are being mortally wronged by this hideously evil parasitic scum. If I see what appears to be a gap in your logic I will point it out, regardless of how much I respect your opinion as a poker player. That is the whole point of a discussion forum.
Stu_Ungar
Legend
Silver Level
SS play because they are allowed.
I think the resentment towards them is better focused at the sites as they allow them to buy in short in the first place.
Slightly off topic, but in live poker, how short can a player buyin?
zachvac
Legend
Silver Level
Do you not realize how that makes no sense? You must abide by something you are entitled? Huh?
Obviously they have a "right" under the poker sites right now to buy in short on non-deep tables. People disagree with this. Obviously they are able to buy in short right now. You say the only options are to accept it? What about petitioning to poker sites? A few years ago Stars didn't have 50bb min tables. Now they do. Fighting to change the rules is perfectly acceptable and I will continue to do so until the buy-in rules online are more in line with buy-in rules live. At one point in the US owning slaves was a "right". Would you have simply told the abolitionists that they should just adapt to it? Just tell the slaves "there are reasons the" government "set
zachvac
Legend
Silver Level
The Vegas casino I played in was 40 BBs and at Turning Stone it's 50 BBs.
Stu_Ungar
Legend
Silver Level
Free the Deep Stackers Zach
Stu_Ungar
Legend
Silver Level
vanquish
Legend
Silver Level
imagine how pissed everybody would be if you could
Stu_Ungar
Legend
Silver Level
I think it would come to blows!!
RogueRivered
Visionary
Silver Level
It makes perfect sense. Obviously, I am equating "rights" with "rules," which in the case of a despotic entity, is pretty much the same thing. If you don't "abide" by the rules, you won't be "entitled" to play.
No, I don't say you have to accept it. In fact, it's obvious what you are trying to do -- play politics. In other words, the more you can get people to agree with you that shortstackers are evil, the more chance you will have of getting the poker sites to change their rules to benefit you. I'm just curious why winning players like yourself think that poker sites should change their rules for your benefit when you've already shown that you can do quite nicely under the current arrangement. Greed, perhaps? Greed can make people do funny things. To berate and harass players who are playing under the rules, rules that maybe don't suit you but are nevertheless in force that everyone understands, doesn't seem to me to be the most honorable thing even if you do think they are "parasites." These "parasites", as you call them, do serve a certain purpose, they protect those other poor-playing deep stacks from being overrun by you, thus keeping the game going by keeping you guys from taking all the money so easily. I believe that is for the greater good of the poker "society" as a whole, good players and bad.
kidkvno1
Sarah's Pet
Bronze Level
^^^^ That may sum it up.
What are the views on being SS in a MTT??????
zachvac
Legend
Silver Level
No rights are something that protect you from others. If I have the right to shortstack it means no one else can stop me from doing it. There's no such thing as you must abide by your rights. That statement simply makes no sense.
Well yeah. The entire thing is greed. Why am I playing? Because I like money and I've found a game where people will give it to me. So yeah most everything I do is greed. Why do I try not to bluff calling stations? Why do I try to avoid -ev situations? It's because I want more money. Explain how this is a bad thing. I pretty much agree with everything you say there, only you don't protect the deepstack players you let them last longer but in the end it's the house and the rake (along with the small amount you may win after rakeback) that get the money from the good deepstackers. I'll say it right now, I'm not in it for the good of the poker "society" as a whole. I could care less about the bad players, I will do whatever I can to get as much money from them as I can. Period.
But I will also argue that even if you are bad, playing deepstack poker is a hell of a lot more fun. If you're bad you probably like seeing a lot of flops and how can you do that when a shortstacker is jamming over all the times you call an open? So in shortstacking you are taking away the enjoyment from the deepstack fish which makes them much less likely to come back. But you're absolutely right in my motive. I like money and good shortstackers exploit a rule in the game to take it away. It's no secret that the reason I want to remove the rule is mainly money. Part of it is also the fact that I have more fun playing deep as well but in the end the most important reason is money. I like money and I feel they are using an unfair rule exploitation to get it. So yeah I want to convince people and to get the sites to change it. Will it happen? Probably not just because if the good deepstackers go to the site that does this first it'll get tougher than just having to play shortstackers.
But I'll still continue to say (and factually) that shortstacking is quite simply using basic math and equities to exploit deepstackers using almost no skill. If you want to do it because you suck at deepstack poker and can make more money that way? Go for it. But don't be surprised when I'm fighting against your right to buy in for 20 BBs. I love how many people in general think that greed is a bad thing. It's called capitalism. Imagine how long we'd be going if people weren't greedy and didn't shop around at stores and instead just spent however much their store wanted to charge them. Or alternatively if the stores didn't want to compete and just didn't make a profit or gave things away for free. So yeah everyone's going to fight for their own side, the side that makes them the most money. It's a fact of life.
kidkvno1
Sarah's Pet
Bronze Level
But there are ways to exploit a shortstacker, and i have done it, and with Using traps, that is just one way.
How you like my sig :smile:
Stu_Ungar
Legend
Silver Level
No you haven't!!!
You cannot trap the SS, you just think you are trapping.
You enter the pot with a range.
SS knows this range.
SS has calculated that you will fold x% of that to a shove.
SS has calculated that you will call y%
of y% he has calculated he will win Z
Sometimes you will open with the top of your range... and win.. but the rest of the time you will either lose the shove or fold. This winrate can be calculated because of the 20BB ceiling.
The winrate is a mathematical auto profit.
RogueRivered
Visionary
Silver Level
Ah well, this is a pointless argument. If I didn't explain my point well enough, so be it, but I think you can see what I'm trying to say -- simply that you play by their rules or you don't play at all. You can try to get them to change the rules, so you are. Fair enough.
I don't have any problem with someone wanting to make money -- if you call that greed, OK. But the kind of greed I'm talking about is when you lose sight of right and wrong in your pursuit of MORE. I don't think it's right to berate players who are playing within the rules. I don't think it's right to call new players names when they are just getting their feet wet. I don't think it's right to encourage inexperienced players to put max money on the table against better players. I don't think it's right to tell players to play within their bankroll and then go after them if they don't have enough to buy in deep.
I definitely agree with you that SS strategy is BORING. It doesn't feel like real poker. I've tried it and can't say that I like it. But it serves a purpose at times, like trying to clear a bonus. I bet some of you good players have done that even while you rail at others. As someone else said, your beef should be with the sites not the players. If you can convince them to change the rules to suit you, more power to you. Just be respectful of your opponents, even if they don't play like you do.
RogueRivered
Visionary
Silver Level
Actually, from what I've read about SS strategy, he pretty much nailed it. They are looking to play premium hands and get all the money in while they are still in the lead. By reducing the number of betting rounds, they take away the post-flop skill of their opponents. If a short-stacker knows that a deep-stacked player is playing trash from the button while trying to steal, it's pretty obvious that he is right to push over the top with good cards.
Stu_Ungar
Legend
Silver Level
They dont play just super premium hands.
C
ct82
Rising Star
Bronze Level
Yeah they do, they might adjust starting hands for position like if a guy raises on the button they will push with more hands versus if they are facing a raise from UTG but for the most part they sit and wait for premium hands then push all in or fold.
Stu_Ungar
Legend
Silver Level
No they do not.
Think about it, why would people playing a DS stratagy have any objection to being 20bb shoved by someone who only plays premium hands?
It would be an easy fold and would not come up all that often.
C
ct82
Rising Star
Bronze Level
Because the short guys are not the only ones in the game, most hands don't go, deep stacker raises and short stacker goes all in there are other players to contend with.
Since it's almost impossible to play a perfect mixed stack game, and hand selection is based on how deep the stacks are I'd like to sometimes raise it up with a 7-6s cause if the money is deep I might hit my hand and win some money against another guy who also has a lot of chips who misreads my hand. But if there are short stackers behind me, who will push or fold then the implied odds aren't there to make the play. Yeah it's an easy fold against the short stacker alone, but them being in the game also takes away plays you would like to make against other players who have more chips.
But whatever man think what you want, I don't really care.
Since it's almost impossible to play a perfect mixed stack game, and hand selection is based on how deep the stacks are I'd like to sometimes raise it up with a 7-6s cause if the money is deep I might hit my hand and win some money against another guy who also has a lot of chips who misreads my hand. But if there are short stackers behind me, who will push or fold then the implied odds aren't there to make the play. Yeah it's an easy fold against the short stacker alone, but them being in the game also takes away plays you would like to make against other players who have more chips.
But whatever man think what you want, I don't really care.
Stu_Ungar
Legend
Silver Level
OK well think of it like this
If they were only shoving premium hands then why would they buy in SS and not DS?
SS play looser than you think.