Moving on up, Cash Game Thread

[Beanfacekilla]

I should probably add, I play all live. The poker room has some creatures that I would consider check folding KK on this river. There is one guy that comes to mind, I would check fold if he jammed this river.



However, I just never fold in your seat on the river. I just like check calling better.

 

[Aces2w1n]

i dont like flatting pre because it allows setminers in cheaper. and we are oop the whole hand.

check raise or get stacks in on turn.

Alright i hate the Ace .... villain either has QQ or AA here.

we block the flush draw now on river. Flush QJs is very doubtful as played.

So yeah leaves AA.... like bean said its best checking and hope villain bluffs but doubtful... qq will check behind almost all the time

still could have a set of 9s but doubtful now since no raise. but some people like to trap in position.... but no value on river either now from this one.

 

[IPlay]

I think check/calling allows villain to play too well against us. I'd rather shove and let him make a calling mistake. He will have AA just as often as he will AK here. He rarely has a flush since the Ac is on the river and villains most likely suited 3 bets are A2-A5s and I find it doubtful that this villain 3 bets 87s/QJs vs my UTG range pre but I have seen stranger. Either way you personally choose to play this river should be fine though. Should come down more to personal preference and your table image/meta.

 

[IPlay]

Haven't been grinding online too much. Played a decent ~6 hour live session and left up $100. None of the hands were really post worthy though but I felt unsure a lot when I was in the blinds. The game plays deep (average stacks ~130-150bb) and loose passive pre. I get lost when 4 players limp and it comes to me in the SB with a hand like 99. Limping feels awful and raising is either going to take down the limps or go multiway half the time there is a call. What do you reccomend in these spots Bean? Hands like KQo,AJo,88-1010?

I am kind of thinking something like this from the SB.

SB vs Limpers $15*$2/limper

Value Raise 88+,AJs+,AQo+
bluff Raise KQo,AJo
Complete 22-77,A2s-ATs,KQs,QJs,JTs,T9s,98s,A9o-ATo,QJo,JTo

KQo/AJo is in the bluff category because I don't expect to be ahead of calling ranges of villains. I won't always raise them though but will when the table conditions are right. Do you think I am completing too little or too many hands? Think I should just fold the off suit hands at the end? Also not wanting too limp too wide of SCs/Suited one gappers because of all the players that love limping any suited Ace. Minimize the amount of time I get coolered vs the amount of time I cooler them.

Also, what do you think of this UTG range? Should KJs,QJs,JTs just be a fold? I really don't want to be open limping but I'm not sure if that is a mistake or not. Maybe it is in super fishy games but fine in tighter Tuesday night games?

88+,ATs+,KJs+,QJs,JTs,AQo+

Also, what do you like to do in this scenario. UTG limps, Fold, Fold, Hero looks down at 22. Do you limp along or ISO? I think there is good arguments for both plays at different table types. I suppose it is hard to ISO live so maybe a limp along is best?

Ok, this ended up being a lot more questions then I planned, sorry

 

[braveslice]

Those plays I have been in the live games in the bar, raising anything else than AA,KK is considered bluffing, so not sure you need defined bluffing range here =) Very interesting question about ranges I wonder myself too when sometimes playing micro stakes live games while drinking beer.

 

[Beanfacekilla]

Haven't been grinding online too much. Played a decent ~6 hour live session and left up $100. None of the hands were really post worthy though but I felt unsure a lot when I was in the blinds. The game plays deep (average stacks ~130-150bb) and loose passive pre. I get lost when 4 players limp and it comes to me in the SB with a hand like 99. Limping feels awful and raising is either going to take down the limps or go multiway half the time there is a call. What do you reccomend in these spots Bean? Hands like KQo,AJo,88-1010?

There are some factors to consider.... What is your image? How active have you been? 8-8 or less I just complete and see a multiway flop, and simply to setmine only. Setmining is huge in MW spots, because live players just can't fold TP.

9-9+ I just raise, big. Try to select an amount based on table dynamics where you feel you'll only get 1 or 2 callers.

Another thing to consider, is there a L/RR sandbagger in EP? If that's the case, if there's any chance you get blown off a hand, then probably just take the easy way and fold (or limp a PP).

I was at a super fishy table the other day (1/2), and this happened. They just make so many mistakes postflop....

40. BB ($395) K-Qo. Several limpers. We raise option to $35, only this idiot calls in MP he has $110 back. In for $2. Flop Q-J-6r. We bet $60, he goes all in for $110, we call. Turn 5, river A. The guy has A-Jo. (- $145)

Is this a good raise? I don't know. I think so. We aren't in bad shape vs dude's range, and he will fold 65% of flops even if we don't hit.

I am kind of thinking something like this from the SB.

SB vs Limpers $15*$2/limper

Value Raise 88+,AJs+,AQo+
Bluff Raise KQo,AJo
Complete 22-77,A2s-ATs,KQs,QJs,JTs,T9s,98s,A9o-ATo,QJo,JTo

KQo/AJo is in the bluff category because I don't expect to be ahead of calling ranges of villains. I won't always raise them though but will when the table conditions are right. Do you think I am completing too little or too many hands? Think I should just fold the off suit hands at the end? Also not wanting too limp too wide of SCs/Suited one gappers because of all the players that love limping any suited Ace. Minimize the amount of time I get coolered vs the amount of time I cooler them.

I fold my SB alot. If it's playable, I have been raising it (for the most part, setmining is an exception). People just limp such bad hands we just can't let them see a flop often if we're gonna play. This goes for 1/2 only, because 2/5 is different.

Also, what do you think of this UTG range? Should KJs,QJs,JTs just be a fold? I really don't want to be open limping but I'm not sure if that is a mistake or not. Maybe it is in super fishy games but fine in tighter Tuesday night games?

If you're going to raise UTG, you must consider the players at your table. Are they going to 3b you often? Will they call with hands as strong as A-K? I will raise K-Js UTG at passive tables, J-10s and Q-Js as well. I do feel I have a post flop edge on most players (if not all at 1/2) so I just feel confident I will know how to proceed after the flop. I would say in general, it just depends on who is at the table and how they're playing. I don't limp often. It feels wrong.

88+,ATs+,KJs+,QJs,JTs,AQo+

Also, what do you like to do in this scenario. UTG limps, Fold, Fold, Hero looks down at 22. Do you limp along or ISO? I think there is good arguments for both plays at different table types. I suppose it is hard to ISO live so maybe a limp along is best?

It's not hard to ISO, but you gotta raise big enough. Raise bigger with bluffs, smaller if you want to see a flop. You gotta find the sweet spot, the raise size that will only get 1 or 2 callers. There's nothing wrong with limping 2-2, but hit a set or get out. I don't mind it. Also, if there is some aggro spewtard that will have position on you, you can limp, and just setmine him, as opposed to raising and getting blown off the hand if he 3b you.

Ok, this ended up being a lot more questions then I planned, sorry

I tried to offer some thoughts on the issues. Most of them depend on dynamics. You must be aware of how your opponents view you, your image. You can get away with murder if you've been nitting it up for a while.

 

[IPlay]

So I have pretty much waved the white flag on ACR. Still have a small roll on their but I am not going to put in the effort to RB grind for pennies while bashing my head in against regs. Just don't have the time/mental endurance for that. I'll probably just donk off the rest of the roll in MTTs or something, I'm not sure.

I have been making it out to play live about 2-3 nights a week and have been enjoying it. Boring at times but I'm pretty talkative and can bring some energy to most tables. Here is a hand for yall. It happened almost a week ago but there is a lot to this hand and I was too lazy to type it all.

This table was pretty crazy with a whale who was overbet triple barreling often with middle pair hands and everything else. He is the CO in this hand. UTG will be the main villain in this hand and he bought in for $100 and ran up his stack to about $500 by calling down the CO in some odd spots. I had not been at the table too long and it is hard to get a real read on someone at this table because of the crazy dynamic and them mostly playing against the CO which means even the biggest fish will be making adjustments to his playstyle.

UTG limps, UTG +1 limps, MP limps, CO raises to $6, BTN calls, HERO calls from SB, BB and all limpers call.

Hero has 3d3c($350)

Flop 5s4s3h($42)

Hero checks, BB bets $10, whole table calls and back to hero who flats.

Wasn't in love with this spot and UTG, CO and BB all have us covered. I felt like this spot is similar to the hand I posted a couple weeks ago where I raised folded JT on a JhTh9x board.

Turn Qc($112)

Hero checks, BB checks UTG bets $90 folds around to hero who ???

 

[Aces2w1n]

Awkward spot means weve messed up the hand on earlier streets.

Raise flop big.

Shove turn

Thats how it shouldve went but now its too much of an overshove.

AP raise turn ... overshove if hes that bad and will call with AQ or 2 pair hand

 

[Beanfacekilla]

So I have pretty much waved the white flag on ACR. Still have a small roll on their but I am not going to put in the effort to RB grind for pennies while bashing my head in against regs. Just don't have the time/mental endurance for that. I'll probably just donk off the rest of the roll in MTTs or something, I'm not sure.

I have been making it out to play live about 2-3 nights a week and have been enjoying it. Boring at times but I'm pretty talkative and can bring some energy to most tables. Here is a hand for yall. It happened almost a week ago but there is a lot to this hand and I was too lazy to type it all.

This table was pretty crazy with a whale who was overbet triple barreling often with middle pair hands and everything else. He is the CO in this hand. UTG will be the main villain in this hand and he bought in for $100 and ran up his stack to about $500 by calling down the CO in some odd spots. I had not been at the table too long and it is hard to get a real read on someone at this table because of the crazy dynamic and them mostly playing against the CO which means even the biggest fish will be making adjustments to his playstyle.

UTG limps, UTG +1 limps, MP limps, CO raises to $6, BTN calls, HERO calls from SB, BB and all limpers call.

Hero has 3d3c($350)

Flop 5s4s3h($42)

Hero checks, BB bets $10, whole table calls and back to hero who flats.

Wasn't in love with this spot and UTG, CO and BB all have us covered. I felt like this spot is similar to the hand I posted a couple weeks ago where I raised folded JT on a JhTh9x board.

Turn Qc($112)

Hero checks, BB checks UTG bets $90 folds around to hero who ???

Raise flop, also we don't have effective stack sizes. Raise flop to like $60ish.

 

[Jillychemung]

Raise flop big.

Shove turn

+1

You set mine, hit it and then go passive??? Just hoping to win?

Check-raise to $120 and shove the turn!!

 

[braveslice]

I’m ok for calling flop 1vs1 CO but, in this hand imo the others are more scary than he is. You can’t really fold? If so just go for it on the turn, AI eyes closed =D

 

[IPlay]

Relevant effective stacks is $350

Alright I wanted to pick this hand apart a little bit more.

I raise flop and I expect I will get ~2 callers on average and I want to figure out how am I doing against their calling range.

76=16 combos
A2=12 combos Not sure if I can put all off suit combos but I can put most.
44=3 combos
55=3 combos
54=6 combos
65s=4 combos
22=6 combos
66=6 combos
77=6combos
I think 88-99 folds and 1010+ would have been more aggressive elsewhere in the hand.

So if I raise flop and get action from 2 players with a range like this the equity runs like this.

Hero, 40%
Villains, 30% 30%

So I am a favorite to win the hand against villains but I am not winning even 50% of the time so raising puts me in worse than a coin flip position. Now when someone comes over the top with a jam, I am probably crushed because players are almost never bluffing when they do so.

When I put in the hands they come over the top with villain is a 60/40 favorite so I am more than likely always going to be priced in. I even put in bluffs with hands like 6s5s and I am still a dog.

Also when we raise flop and get 1-2 callers what are we doing on bad turns in a bloated pot? We hate any spade, 2, A, 6, 7 which is 22 cards, so about half the deck is a bad turn card and when we raise flop it is hard to get away.

So my plan is to flat flop and get more money in on safe turns which will happen a little more than half the time.

So with this said I think raising flop is an option but flatting is fine and my preferred approach because I don't want to flip coins for close to 200bbs in an almost limped pot.

So now we get a safe turn. I think I should lead here ~2/3rd pot. Instead I check and a more passive villain bets almost pot. What is his range now? Villain is loose/passive and limp/called UTG. So I give him a range of 76, A2s, 54s, 55, 44 for sure. Hard to think of what other hands he can have here. Maybe some weirdly played AQ hand? Against this range(with AQs included) we are a 70/30 dog and we need 44% to call so turn should be a fold. Which is what I did. I'll reveal results later.

Cliffs
~I agree a flop raise is a valid play
~I prefer a lower variance call mainly because we hate a reraise and ~half the turn cards. Any spade, 2, A, 6, 7
~Villains range is very strong when he almost pots the turn into 7 people and I am a 70/30 dog and need 44% to call so I fold.
~Will reveal results later.
~This is very TL;DR but I did it for my own gain.
~Curious of what you guys are doing when you raise flop, get 1-2 callers and one of the bad turn cards I mentioned above peels off. Just close your eyes and jam? Check/call a jam? Check/fold? Hope it checks through? Keep in mind we are first to act.
~With all this said is this all the more reason I should have folded 33 pre from the SB? I don't think that is an option with the whale in the hand but -him and maybe I should just fold pre.

Played in my 3rd ever live tournament on Monday and made a decent run. I'll make a post about it later. I've had enough of posting today after all of the above.

 

[Jillychemung]

I raise flop and I expect I will get ~2 callers on average

If you are getting more than 1 caller on a larger than pot sized check-raise 50%+ of the time then you need to raise larger. I think you way over estimate how often you'll get 2+ callers. Ideally we want 1 caller, with that wide range you have for a caller, you are 80% to win.

Now given the range (I dropped AsJs+ out of it as I'd expect those hands to have raised preflop) and you check-raise to $120, get 2 callers, and a Js hits turn, you are still the favorite at 38/31/31 so if you open shove the turn, you win ~$400 some large % of time (callers fold), ~$800+ a small % (they stack off with a draw & miss or you suck out on the river) and you lose $350 the rest of the time. So long run you are very much +$ .

 

[IPlay]

7 way to the flop on this wet of a board with this many potential made hands I think 2 callers should be expected pretty often. The less players that see this flop the more it becomes a raise IMO. Like I said though, raising flop is fine and will be +EV. Just too high variance to do 175bbs deep. For me atleast.

For the 2nd part when you say I am a favorite on this turn card is that against their calling ranges or their range when they make it to the turn? I almost feel like jamming a Js turn is turning my hand into some weird bluff but I'm not sure. Hard to imagine it would be for value BUT once we raise flop and get called is there any other play?

Like I said though, raising flop is fine but I don't think it is the only way to play the flop. By far not a slam dunk check/raise.

 

[Jillychemung]

Let's take your worst case with the range you have given. With a check-raise overpot and shove the turn, your EV is ($350*3)*.40 - $350*.60 = +$210.

 

[IPlay]

Yeah you are right Jilly. Raising is the highest EV play. Still not sure how I feel about jamming a spade turn though. But what else do we do at that point?

Anywho, played in a tournament on Monday. Only have 1 mildly interesting hand but it really isn't even worth posting so I'll brag about run good instead.

The tournament is just a local $30 Monday tournament. Me and my buddy show up about 15 minutes early to buy in. We make the cut off of 105 entrants at numbers 103 & 104. I really didn't think they had these kind of turn outs but I guess the Monday tournament has gained a lot of popularity over the last few months I was absent.

Tournament structure is 8,000 starting chips, 20 minutes blinds starting at 25/50. So we were expect to start 160bbs deep. WRONG! Only 80 players can start and after that is an alternate and it took about 1h 45m before we got our seats and instead of starting with 160bbs, we started with 13bbs at the 300/600 level. Overall I am pretty salty at this point and just looking forward to the cash game that is starting soon. As I am walking to the table my seat has chips and cards. I look down at AJs and an UTG player that has already open shoved. So I reshove and villain shows A8o and I hold to double up. Starting the tournament this short made for pretty much a push or fold tournament and I think I peaked at 30bbs at one point.

The only bit of run bad I had in the tournament(besides the mildly interesting hand) was a few hands after my double up, I raise with JJ in HJ BTN shoves and I call and he shows AA and holds.

Here is the all in run good that lead to me taking down first for $630

A6o vs 99, I hit trip 6s on the river
A10s vs AKo, board double paired for me to chop
AQs vs AA I flopped a Q and turned a Q for a double knockout at final table.
QJs vs KJs We both turned a J and I spiked a Q on the river.

So the couple months of online run bad corrected itself on this day. We ended up 4 way chopping at the end while I had half the chips in play and I am not sure how much I shorted myself by. I was by far the best at the table and the old guys were just letting me have every pot while waiting for a hand.

1st $805
2nd $505
3rd $340
4th $270

Four way chop was ~$480 a piece but the other 3 gave me $50 on top so I took $630 and they each took $430. I feel like I got shorted but probably not by much. Idk how ICM works but I had half the chips in play so should I have got half of the remaining prize pool? I don't think it works this way since I would have taken home more than what 1st actually was but I really don't know.

How do you guys decide on chops? I'm sure I can google an article but I don't plan on playing in another tournament anytime soon. It was a miserable experience minus the run good.

Cliffs
~Bought into $30 live MTT
~Starting stacks 160bb
~I didn't get a seat until my stack was down to 13bb
~I ran like a God
~I ripped myself off on the chop

Played a few hour live session tonight and there was two Moby Dicks in the game but they didn't stay for too long. Made a cool $500 though and I'm close to +$1,700 on the month in live games.

Oh and the results of that hand? I folded turn and didn't show, villain showed 55 and said he was afraid of the straights. Lol

 

[IPlay]

Oh and it was absolutely hilarious to see how many players were limp/folding 12bb deep in that tournament. The skill level was close to a 270 man ACR freeroll. Well I can't say that, at least they don't call a shove with the 86s they limped with.

 

[Aces2w1n]

Lolz

 

[IPlay]

Hand Against The Whale

1/2 game playing super deep. Hero has $500, villain covers.

$10 button straddle

SB Villain calls $10
Folds to Hero who makes it $35
Folds to Villain who calls

Hero has 99

Flop ($82) Jc9d8s

Villain Checks
Hero Bets $50, in hindsight I should bet ~$65, especially against this villain
Villain Calls

Turn($182) Qd(Gross)

Villain Checks
Hero Checks

River($182) 2c

Villain Bets $125
Hero Calls and villain shows K2o


River was pretty weird. I called because this guy makes very strange bets in strange spots and almost always bets against a check. I've seen him make people so flabbergasted they have called 70% PSB with 3rd pair and villain scoops with 2nd pair. I don't think he is a sicko making good thin bets and aggressive bluffs but just a clueless gambler.

The real interesting part was a live tell I think I have on him. When he is weak he looks at the table and his eyes do not move and usually has his hand over his mouth. But when he is strong his hands are more relaxed and, while still staring at the table his pupils move a lot. I'm not 100% on this read but more like 85%. Well on this hand he was giving off the strong tell but I just can't fold a set against this guy because he is capable of thinking QJ is the best hand.

When the dealer mucks his hand and goes to ship me the pot he says "Wait! I had a straight!" and I believe he was being 100% sincere in this and makes me much more confident about the read I have on him. Ahh, whales misreading boards for 200bb pots, The Run Good Is Real.

 

[Aces2w1n]

Yeah its important to know someones comfort position. Looking at other players carefully is a tell because it shows that they are trying to make reads to see if their marginal hand is good.


People cover the mouth when bluffing cuz theres a huge tell with mouth movement... they twitch or move mouth arounf when bluffing.

So yeah when hes not covering he isnt worried about giving that tell off.

Another tell i see often is if they dont like the board or cards they will push away from table. They just want to get out of the hand heh

 

[duggs]

Wait, if he thought he had the best hand wasnt your physical tell 100% wrong then?

 

[IPlay]

Wait, if he thought he had the best hand wasnt your physical tell 100% wrong then?

Not sure what you mean. He gave off the strong tell when he thought he had a straight. But he misread his hand and did not have a straight. So yes and no?

I had to ignore the tell in this hand because IDK if he misreads the board and thinks QJ is the nuts here. If I know he doesn't overvalue hands worse than straights I can fold but I don't think so.

Finally had a losing session after 8 wins a row. Saw the two biggest 1/2 pots I've seen shipped to the same guy in back 2 back sessions. $2k and $2.7k. Also lost my biggest pot ever where I flopped the nuts on 6s5s4c and GII vs 2 villains. One had 55, one had 64 and 64 scooped it. 64 overcalled a $400 3 bet shove with top and bottom pair, lol. Didn't care much about losing the hand but damn that $1k would have been a nice addition to my puny BR.

 

[Aces2w1n]

Thats the gamble part/risk.. keep up the thread dude

 

[IPlay]

Won 2/12 sessions online, 9/11 playing live. Only got in about 5k hands online and got about 50 hours in live. Pretty happy with both the volume and the results this month. I'd be surprised if I managed to get over 1k hands online for March and aiming for about 60 hours of live. Playing a session tonight, maybe I'll have some postworthy hands.

 

[IPlay]

Villain in this hand seemed like a meh live player. First time playing with him and for only about an hour. Only significant hand I saw was he limped UTG with JJ and stacked two people who called his river shove with trips on a 5T5Jx board. River shove was about $250 effective.

Villain limps
HERO Raises $15 with 7h7c($400 eff)
1 player calls, villain calls.

Flop 2hJc7d ($48)

Villain checks
HERO Bets $20
Other player calls
Villain raises $100
HERO calls
Other Folds

Turn 9h ($268)
Villain Jams $285
HERO snap calls
Villain sighs and says he just has a J and I'm like awesome, he is drawing dead in a $850 pot!!

River 6h($838)

Villain shows QhJh and scoops

So thats twice in the past week I GII as a 80% favorite in $1k pots and lost. Ugggghhh, first one was easy to shake off but this one hurt. I left the game right after(Game wasn't great anyway) I was playing well though and got a few bluffs through and some decent value in spots other would not have.

Luckily I don't tilt playing live like I do online since the beats are so spread apart. I am pretty confident I can crush this game for upwards of $20/hour as long as my bank roll survives. I mean, just look at villains hands in the 2 big pots I have lost. People don't hesitate to call off 2 buy ins with weak holdings.