Micro(2nl-25nl) cash game thread-October (Strat only)

[Cafeman]

Your not just flipping at best with QQ though.I have 4bet shove QQ+an have been called with any thing from 22+ to 78s.People are way loser at 5nl and lower than y'all think

Yeah, I suppose I meant I'm never fist pumping to get QQ in pre, and calling IP is certainly an option.

 

[Cafeman]

You do realize that even against a range of QQ+/AK you have 40% equity with QQ right? And when you factor in the $$ already in the pot you're generally going to be better getting AI against that range than you are folding to it.

Yeah, I'm not folding either.

WV, would you ever call pre and see a flop IP with QQ against an unknown?

 

[WVHillbilly]

WV, would you ever call pre and see a flop IP with QQ against an unknown?

Never.

 

[micromachine]

Never.

Interesting...in that case, do you prefer shove or 4-bet?

I suppose I am cautious because I have been stung so many times with my QQ running into KK or AA

 

[Cafeman]

Never.

Oh, I can see I need to rethink my preflop strategy! 4bet or shove?

 

[WVHillbilly]

If you think they'll call a shove (a lot will) shove away. Generally though I'd 4bet big / call a shove.

I don't really advocate calling a 3bet with any hand unless it's 200bb deep or something.

 

[Cafeman]

I don't really advocate calling a 3bet with any hand unless it's 200bb deep or something.

OK, so this is a completely different scenario I'd like to run by you.

We are playing in an aggressive pre/flop game (that means to say that they tend to get more honest by the turn!). We open AA on the CO and are 3bet by a reg who has been 3betting light from there a LOT but who we know folds to a 4bet when he has his SC/sPP/totalair sh1t or w/e. We also know he fires a cbet on most flops. Could a case be made for calling pre here, or do you still 4bet 100% of the time?

 

[WVHillbilly]

OK, so this is a completely different scenario I'd like to run by you.

We are playing in an aggressive pre/flop game (that means to say that they tend to get more honest by the turn!). We open AA on the CO and are 3bet by a reg who has been 3betting light from there a LOT but who we know folds to a 4bet when he has his SC/sPP/totalair sh1t or w/e. We also know he fires a cbet on most flops. Could a case be made for calling pre here, or do you still 4bet 100% of the time?

I still 4bet. I ALWAYS look to get as much in as possible with AA. The chance of coolering QQ/KK/AK is just too great to pass up getting AIPF if possible.

If he's as described I'd probably also be looking to 4bet a bit of junk as well.

If there is one hand you could argue flatting a 3bet with I'd say it would be KK (I still wouldn't but it can be argued).

 

[Stu_Ungar]

Yeah, I'm not folding either.

WV, would you ever call pre and see a flop IP with QQ against an unknown?

There are plenty of people you would call a 3bet IP with QQ, but that's because you are exploiting known tendencies both perflop and postflop.

If opponent is unknown, you dont know what his postflop tendencies are.. he might give up if he misses.

You dont know what his preflop tendencies are.. he might call with 99.

So my question to you is (and this is a real question), given you dont know anything about the guy, why do you think about flatting with a very strong hand.

 

[Cafeman]

To be clear, I would normally 4bet vs an unknown.

So my question to you is (and this is a real question), given you dont know anything about the guy, why do you think about flatting with a very strong hand.

I suppose the only reason to flat a strong hand IP would be to disguise its strength and keep in hands that would fold. I.e. not take the standard line of 4bet get it in with QQ+/AK.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

To be clear, I would normally 4bet vs an unknown.


I suppose the only reason to flat a strong hand IP would be to disguise its strength and keep in hands that would fold. I.e. not take the standard line of 4bet get it in with QQ+/AK.

He is an UNKNOWN you dont know what he folds.

 

[WVHillbilly]

He is an UNKNOWN you dont know what he folds.

You don't even know IF he folds.

 

[imwatcher]

Have you tried to just 3/4bet shove over a few thousand hand sample with QQ +??

I have a pretty decent sample at 2nl and I can say the GENERAL stacking range for players is Qs+ AK, although as this player has a random starting stack and is unknown I would agree and just ship, or 4bet small hoping for him to spaz.

 

[JOEBOB69]

I have a pretty decent sample at 2nl and I can say the GENERAL stacking range for players is Qs+ AK, although as this player has a random starting stack and is unknown I would agree and just ship, or 4bet small hoping for him to spaz.

It my be true but it's hard to imagine 2nl players in just a few months after BF have learned how to play.An do not like calling off with AJ,AQ,88,etc.

 

[Cafeman]

He is an UNKNOWN you dont know what he folds.

Can I make any assumptions?

 

[WVHillbilly]

Can I make any assumptions?

Yes, if you have a decent number of hands at your level, you can assume all unknowns are bad/fish. Won't always be true but at least 90% of the time it will be, they'll lose all their cash, and you'll never see them again. Be the reg who gets to their money first by not giving anyone the benefit of the doubt.

 

[imwatcher]

It my be true but it's hard to imagine 2nl players in just a few months after BF have learned how to play.An do not like calling off with AJ,AQ,88,etc.

I am mainly basing this around regs and loose passive players, the 2 most common people at 2nl... therefore in GENERAL that stacking range is pretty standard and is not much looser than that.

 

[micromachine]

This isn't strictly strategy but...

I've been having a terrible month poker-wise (graph attached). Started really well, taking shots at 10NL and won quite a bit, then proceeded to lose it all and more. bankroll was $321 at one point and has now dropped to $200. I think these are the problems:

1) Playing when drunk! I did this a couple of times playing when getting back from the pub, lost $20 first time and $30 second time. VERY bad idea.
2) Not being ready for 10NL. I'm still a relative cash game beginner really. Winning 7 buy-ins at 10NL gave me the false impression that I could beat it. Not sure I can now.
3) Playing at off-peak times like in the morning. It seems ridiculously hard to win any money and there are hardly any fish.
4) Moving between levels. Moving between 2NL, 5NL and 10NL may not be a good idea. I think you need to get used to playing a levels and stick with it for a bit cos they all play different.
5) Getting bored of 2NL. Having a taste of the big pots at 10NL makes 2NL seem a bit boring, making me play bad and meaning I'm only really breaking even at the only level I can beat.
6) Bad beats. I'm always way under EV for some reason.

Anyone else suffered from any of these or got any advice for me? I'm going to go back to 2NL again for a bit *sigh*

 

[JohnBoyWWFC]

This may be a terrible answer in response to 6, but if you're getting it in good a lot more than you are bad, then your EV is more likely to be down, because there's more chance for bad beats?

 

[imwatcher]

Rethink that statement johnny

 

[JohnBoyWWFC]

I mean you're going to be running below EV. Maybe I'm really off lol.

 

[micromachine]

I'm still a bit confused about the EV line, over all my PT3 tracked hands including all limits (100K hands) I am so under it is ridic. To me this means I have had a lot of suck-outs...like I had the best hand at the flop and they hit their 2 outer for example (this has happened a LOT)

 

[Stu_Ungar]

6) Bad beats. I'm always way under EV for some reason.

Your not way under EV.

You are 3 buyins under EV over 25K and they all seemed to occur around the 16300 mark.

Other than at that point you have ran pretty close to allin ev

 

[micromachine]

OK but over 100K hands (everything) I am -$250 profit (what am I going to do when the welcome bonus runs out lol) and $100 under EV!! That's a lot isn't it?

 

[Stu_Ungar]

OK but over 100K hands (everything) I am -$250 profit (what am I going to do when the welcome bonus runs out lol) and $100 under EV!! That's a lot isn't it?

Its not a lot for 10NL

Your 10BI down in EV... its not a huge amount.

Id be more concerned why you are not making a profit rather than how close to LR EV you are running.