Limit Game Monthly Thread - June LO8

[WiZZiM]

Sorry, if im posting too much babble, just let me know.

I just completely blew a hand, first time it's happened in ages, but i played a razz hand, thinking it was stud.. was drawing dead on 5th, lol. bed time for me.. GL c9, I disown that australian retard, hes from my hometown, which is embarrassing...

 

[c9h13no3]

Sorry, if im posting too much babble, just let me know.

Slightly off topic discussion > no discussion.

 

[c9h13no3]

I just want to say that 50c/$1 Deuce is an absolute money volcano, and if anyone has a $300-$400 roll, I strongly suggest you use that game to build your roll. If you read the Super System 2 chapter, you instantly have a 5bb/100 edge on people. I seriously think I could program a bot to play this game that could win at a ridiculous rate.

 

[WiZZiM]

I just want to say that 50c/$1 Deuce is an absolute money volcano, and if anyone has a $300-$400 roll, I strongly suggest you use that game to build your roll. If you read the Super System 2 chapter, you instantly have a 5bb/100 edge on people. I seriously think I could program a bot to play this game that could win at a ridiculous rate.

Are you talking about trible draw lowball? if so, i agree.. its one of my favourite games in the rotation. I believe negreanu wrote something on the subject, could be super system.. Sort of like razz, consistant easy profit...

 

[c9h13no3]

Are you talking about trible draw lowball? if so, i agree.. its one of my favourite games in the rotation. I believe negreanu wrote something on the subject, could be super system.. Sort of like razz, consistant easy profit...

Yeah, but in Razz, even idiots can see that if I have 123 showing, their 976 isn't so hot. But since all the cards are face down, it causes the fish to do some retarded crap. Plus, newbs will often stand pat crazy rough with like 2 draws to go even when I'm standing pat after capping pre & drawing 1. So they're drawing dead (oddly, by not drawing), and that's the sexiest money in poker.

So like if my opponent had a 96432 on 6th and I had a 87432, then he would automatically have the ability to draw out on me if he was playing Razz. But playing deuce, he's probably going to stand pat on his trash, so will I, and he'll be drawing dead. So instead of winning like ~1.4 bets playing razz, I win 2.0 because he's drawing dead. Drawing mistakes are probably the biggest mistakes you can make in every limit poker game.

Yes, Negreanu wrote the chapter on 2-7TD in Super System 2. If you like free stuff like I do, you can find it here.

 

[ats777]

Im not really sure, perhaps table select better? it would be pretty hard to play against a player like you describe, who is probably better than you, in position, its pretty much a no win situation, so id just suggest not putting yourself in that situation to begin with.

Yeah, it sucks. The problem with table selecting is this guy is a mass multi-tabler so is pretty much at every table at my limit. At if he's not, he will soon be. So unless I move limits, I'm going to have to learn some counter-strategy...even if its a "give up" one. I do pay close attention to my seat selection and try to avoid those tables where I know these situations are going to occur. Other than that...that's the best I've got. You're right, and I admit...he is likely better than me so I've tried to just "avoid" for the most part. Still difficult though when he's at every table.

I've been a mess this month which isn't helping either. I'm getting agro-agressive, borderline gambling...way overthinking things and trying to outplay people on every hand. I'm getting a ton of breaks luck wise either so its a pretty vicious cycle I'm on that I'm trying to break out of. First time I've experienced this state of mind in my short poker career. Its as if I'm on "constant tilt" and if I'm not at the moment, I soon will be. Guys got any advice on this? I know you're all far more experienced than me...

 

[GiantBuddha]

Well, second session of LHE played, pretty horrible really, have a few hands id like to discuss, especially concerning capping PF with hands like AK, Not sure if it's a good play to cap with hands such as that.

Also, had no real idea what to do postflop, i figured i had outs, but how many i wasnt sure, i guess i cant really include all aces and kings as outs here, is this a fold on the turn?

PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Preflop: Hero is SB with K

, A

UTG raises, MP 3-bets, 1 fold, Hero caps, 1 fold, UTG calls, MP calls

Flop: (13 SB) 6

, 8

, Q

(3 players)
Hero bets, UTG raises, MP calls, Hero calls

Turn: (9.5 BB) 7

(3 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, MP calls, Hero calls

River: (12.5 BB) 10

(3 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, MP raises, Hero folds, UTG calls

Total pot: $33 (16.5 BB) | Rake: $1

You definitely have to discount your outs on the turn, but getting 11.5:1 closing the action, you have enough to call. You would need about 3.5 outs here, and that's about what I would give you. With MP padding the pot, your implied odds are probably positive.

 

[GiantBuddha]

Yeah, it sucks. The problem with table selecting is this guy is a mass multi-tabler so is pretty much at every table at my limit. At if he's not, he will soon be. So unless I move limits, I'm going to have to learn some counter-strategy...even if its a "give up" one. I do pay close attention to my seat selection and try to avoid those tables where I know these situations are going to occur. Other than that...that's the best I've got. You're right, and I admit...he is likely better than me so I've tried to just "avoid" for the most part. Still difficult though when he's at every table.

I've been a mess this month which isn't helping either. I'm getting agro-agressive, borderline gambling...way overthinking things and trying to outplay people on every hand. I'm getting a ton of breaks luck wise either so its a pretty vicious cycle I'm on that I'm trying to break out of. First time I've experienced this state of mind in my short poker career. Its as if I'm on "constant tilt" and if I'm not at the moment, I soon will be. Guys got any advice on this? I know you're all far more experienced than me...

Your table selection should focus more on who you want to sit with than who you don't want to sit with. Get position on one very bad player, and it doesn't matter all that much who else is at the table. Obviously it matters somewhat, but it's better to play with one terrible player and one world class player than two decent players.

 

[GiantBuddha]

One more, just to keep you guys on your toes

After i raise UTG, with 4 callers, a flop that is semi-wet, is this a c-bet, C/C, C/F.

I figured it hits their calling ranges pretty well, and theres not too many turn cards i really like, an ace may be the only clean out, is this correct thinking? or too nitty?

PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A

, Q

Hero raises, 2 folds, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls

Flop: (8 SB) J

, 6

, 9

(4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, Button bets, 1 fold, BB calls, Hero folds

Turn: (5 BB) 7

(2 players)
BB checks, Button bets, BB calls

River: (7 BB) 4

(2 players)
BB checks, Button bets, 1 fold

Total pot: $14 (7 BB) | Rake: $0.50

This board is pretty gross for your hand, so the flop check is good - you don't have a value bet and you're not getting 3 folds. Closing the action with 10:1 odds you have an easy call, though. 6 dirty outs, backdoor straight, plus ace high, which will be the best hand on occasion. This turn would be a fold after a flop peel, but you might continue on some blanks given the right action.

 

[WiZZiM]

Yeah, but in Razz, even idiots can see that if I have 123 showing, their 976 isn't so hot. But since all the cards are face down, it causes the fish to do some retarded crap. Plus, newbs will often stand pat crazy rough with like 2 draws to go even when I'm standing pat after capping pre & drawing 1. So they're drawing dead (oddly, by not drawing), and that's the sexiest money in poker.

So like if my opponent had a 96432 on 6th and I had a 87432, then he would automatically have the ability to draw out on me if he was playing Razz. But playing deuce, he's probably going to stand pat on his trash, so will I, and he'll be drawing dead. So instead of winning like ~1.4 bets playing razz, I win 2.0 because he's drawing dead. Drawing mistakes are probably the biggest mistakes you can make in every limit poker game.

Yes, Negreanu wrote the chapter on 2-7TD in Super System 2. If you like free stuff like I do, you can find it here.

Free stuff rocks, nice find! ill read up at a later date . Yeah i see what your saying the board in razz lets the fish make a few less mistakes.

Yeah, it sucks. The problem with table selecting is this guy is a mass multi-tabler so is pretty much at every table at my limit. At if he's not, he will soon be. So unless I move limits, I'm going to have to learn some counter-strategy...even if its a "give up" one. I do pay close attention to my seat selection and try to avoid those tables where I know these situations are going to occur. Other than that...that's the best I've got. You're right, and I admit...he is likely better than me so I've tried to just "avoid" for the most part. Still difficult though when he's at every table.

I've been a mess this month which isn't helping either. I'm getting agro-agressive, borderline gambling...way overthinking things and trying to outplay people on every hand. I'm getting a ton of breaks luck wise either so its a pretty vicious cycle I'm on that I'm trying to break out of. First time I've experienced this state of mind in my short poker career. Its as if I'm on "constant tilt" and if I'm not at the moment, I soon will be. Guys got any advice on this? I know you're all far more experienced than me...

Im not too sure really, you just need to find a way of dealing with it/ playing through it, without losing the plot. I havent got as much experiance as you in cash games probably. But in sng's it used to affect me, but after a while, i kind of just got used to it, expect it to happen even, I think bankroll issues and being results orientated are pretty dangerous things too. Like for example, constantly checking your bank balance or looking at graphs, it can hurt your confidance if you think your playing well and your losing heaps. Also playing within your B/R is a big help too.

This board is pretty gross for your hand, so the flop check is good - you don't have a value bet and you're not getting 3 folds. Closing the action with 10:1 odds you have an easy call, though. 6 dirty outs, backdoor straight, plus ace high, which will be the best hand on occasion. This turn would be a fold after a flop peel, but you might continue on some blanks given the right action.

Thanks for the help. LHE, we use pot odds a hell of a lot more than NLHE. Counting outs is a big thing too. Like, as i mentioned, i had no idea where i was at really. How can i learn about this sort of stuff? Books? Like, counting outs in LHE, and working out combinations of cards etc. Calling with pot odds. vague question, sorry, im really quite tired, it's past my bed time. Oh, since our team won the league here, ill have a months pass to DTB, really looking forward to wading through all of your videos. Perhaps some of this stuff im asking is in a video of yours?

 

[GiantBuddha]

You'll find a lot of those answers in my video. A good book that covers out counting is Small Stakes Hold'em by Ed Miller et al. I'll give it a thorough treatment in my LHE strat book, whenever I get around to writing that one. Gotta catch up on the grind first.

 

[ats777]

Your table selection should focus more on who you want to sit with than who you don't want to sit with. Get position on one very bad player, and it doesn't matter all that much who else is at the table. Obviously it matters somewhat, but it's better to play with one terrible player and one world class player than two decent players.

So I then gather from this that your focus should be on the one poor player you have at the table and focus on him? Then basically just avoid a pissing contest with the other good players? I mean, play your good hands against them but don't overly focus on needing to outplay them on every hand...just focus on taking the poor player's money. Correct?

So if the poor player is on your left, and the other players are decent, am I correct to say this is not an enviable situation and we should be browsing the lobby for a better spot?

Do you do this with software or just do it thru memory looking at the players at the table?

 

[ats777]

Im not too sure really, you just need to find a way of dealing with it/ playing through it, without losing the plot. I havent got as much experiance as you in cash games probably. But in sng's it used to affect me, but after a while, i kind of just got used to it, expect it to happen even, I think bankroll issues and being results orientated are pretty dangerous things too. Like for example, constantly checking your bank balance or looking at graphs, it can hurt your confidance if you think your playing well and your losing heaps. Also playing within your B/R is a big help too.

Thanks. I'd consider myself pretty good about staying within bankroll limits. I'm not perfect obviously, but I stick to a 500BB bankroll min and have avoided "taking shots"...though I've been tempted. So in essence, I have enough in my bankroll where a losing session should not, and I do not believe has put me on "bankroll tilt".

You make an interesting point about checking bank balances and graphs. I do this A TON. I even do it during a session. Constantly flipping to HEM and updating my graph to "see how it looks now". Just typing that out makes me think how bad and dangerous of a practice that is. I think it leads to me being on an emotional roller coaster which probably is playing a role in why I'm making some of the decisions I'm making. Thanks for mentioning this as I think its helped me uncover something that I better fix.

 

[ats777]

Since I derailed the thread a bit with my tilt issue...sorry. I'll get a little bit back on point by posting a hand dealing with the river.

poker stars $1.00/$2 Limit Hold'em - 9 players - View hand 763924
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

Pre Flop: (1.5 SB) Hero is UTG+1 with A

K

UTG raises, Hero 3-bets, 6 folds, BB calls, UTG calls

Flop: (9.5 SB) J

6

3

(3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, BB calls, UTG folds

Turn: (5.75 BB) K

(2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls

River: (7.75 BB) Q

(2 players)
BB checks, Hero ???

Are we checking behind here? My thought is I'm primed for being check-raised and what is villain going to call with that I can beat? If the AF was a little lower I could peg him as a callilng station and bet for value I think, but don't think I put villain in that category. Villain is a 21/7/2.1 over 115 hands. Seems like it shouldn't be that difficult a situation, but it speaks to the larger issue of playing the river when a scare card comes.

 

[WiZZiM]

You'll find a lot of those answers in my video. A good book that covers out counting is Small Stakes Hold'em by Ed Miller et al. I'll give it a thorough treatment in my LHE strat book, whenever I get around to writing that one. Gotta catch up on the grind first.

I have that book on the way, i got it from the stars VIP shop

So I then gather from this that your focus should be on the one poor player you have at the table and focus on him? Then basically just avoid a pissing contest with the other good players? I mean, play your good hands against them but don't overly focus on needing to outplay them on every hand...just focus on taking the poor player's money. Correct?

So if the poor player is on your left, and the other players are decent, am I correct to say this is not an enviable situation and we should be browsing the lobby for a better spot?

Do you do this with software or just do it thru memory looking at the players at the table?

Note taking is really handy, and stuff like the stars note taking system is really helpful too. I came up with a color key, assign it to players, and away i go. like yellow players i WANT to sit with RED ones i dont. etc.

Since I derailed the thread a bit with my tilt issue...sorry. I'll get a little bit back on point by posting a hand dealing with the river.

Poker Stars $1.00/$2 Limit Hold'em - 9 players - View hand 763924
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

Pre Flop: (1.5 SB) Hero is UTG+1 with A

K

UTG raises, Hero 3-bets, 6 folds, BB calls, UTG calls

Flop: (9.5 SB) J

6

3

(3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, BB calls, UTG folds

Turn: (5.75 BB) K

(2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls

River: (7.75 BB) Q

(2 players)
BB checks, Hero ???

Are we checking behind here? My thought is I'm primed for being check-raised and what is villain going to call with that I can beat? If the AF was a little lower I could peg him as a callilng station and bet for value I think, but don't think I put villain in that category. Villain is a 21/7/2.1 over 115 hands. Seems like it shouldn't be that difficult a situation, but it speaks to the larger issue of playing the river when a scare card comes.

Im not sure if the flop bet is good or not, its probably fine, but i don't think were getting folds that often, having said that, we probably still have the best hand, so im fine with it. a bet/fold line is what i would take, again, im not sure if thats great, considering it's limit, agasint bad players i might bet/call. hopefully someone can actually answer this, who isn't completely new at the game im actually thinking, bet/calling is ok im limit, unless your up against a player who wont ever spazz the river.. were getting great odds to do so.

 

[slycbnew]

I like the flop cbet in position 3way - barring the occasional hand that I don't want to be c/r'd off of, I'm cbetting close to 100%.

I like b/f'ing river. We're losing value against a ton of single pair hands that aren't going to raise us - heck 2 pair hands and maybe even a straight aren't necessarily going to raise here with those stats. So it's an easy fold to a raise, but I really want the extra BB from AJ/J9/99/88/etc.

 

[c9h13no3]

I'm looking for some advice. I recently withdrew my whole roll from UB, and I'm trying to decide what to do. I've been playing around with some funny money on stars, playing pretty under-rolled at 50c/$1 limit games. And honestly, I've been having more fun playing microstakes mixed games than I have in the past playing mid-stakes limit games on UB. There's less stress, I play less tables, and its kinda fun bashing the crap out of newbies who have no idea what they're doing.

So the question is:

1) Do I deposit money on Full Tilt or Stars, so that I can whore bonus, get rakeback, make money, and play a high stress limit game.

2) Put about $600 on either Merge or Cake, whore some seriously high rakeback & bonus? But I'd have to play HU NLHE, LHE, or PLO.

3) Put the money into the stock market, and see how much I can run up my funny money on stars.

Pick one.


And Wizzim, please v-bet that river!

 

[slycbnew]

fwiw, have fun imo, see how much you can grow the funny money on stars - you can probably get it to the point where you can start playing the higher limit games in a relatively short period of time.

If you get the itch sooner, deposit on FT for the high stress games - I don't remember you really enjoying playing HU that much? And if you get an itch for HU, you can always play HORSE HU on FT...

 

[WiZZiM]

I found this hand really interesting, probably made about 5 mistakes, but ill run through what i was thinking, hopefully you guys will be able to help.

Reads

UTG is a tight/solid multitabling regular, dont have to many hands on him though.

Button was another multitabling reg, he is kind of spewy, and not a great player.

SB was a complete fish, and the only reason i was at the table, he was going at around a 80VPIP spewing chips all over, managing to pick up big pots due to lucky flops. He is the calling station type, he will check or call with marginal hands, bet or raise with big ones.

Ok so preflop i didnt like 3betting from an UTG raise, so i decided to flat, i can use my position to outplay him postflop, but also i wanted the SB fish to stay in the hand. calling the cap from button is obv standard.

Flopped nut flush draw, on very dry board. Didnt really know what to do here, After the UTG raises, i decided to try and cap, i figured i had a lot of equity on this flop, plus raising may get the button to fold some hands. can i donk out here? hoping button raises? should i be trying to cap here?

Once the ace hit, i figured if i was ahead, its only very slightly, should i have bet the turn here? i figured i just wanted to get to showdown cheap.

And what to do on the river, the SB is spewy, but once he overcalls the flop, i dont know what to put him on, since the button bets out, i don't think my 10 kicker is any good, crying call? he is spewy, but he rarely raises or bets hands himself, so i had to narrow his range to random 2's, boats, and probably hands like AQ AK etc. i don't think he would go nuts with anything worse than that, he would probably just flat call.



pokerstars Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Preflop: Hero is MP with A

, 10

UTG raises, Hero calls, Button 3-bets, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG calls, Hero calls

Flop: (13 SB) 2

, 2

, 9

(4 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks, Button bets, SB calls, UTG raises, Hero 3-bets, Button caps, SB calls, UTG calls, Hero calls

Turn: (14.5 BB) A

(4 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks, Button checks

River: (14.5 BB) 6

(4 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks, Button bets, SB raises, hero??

 

[c9h13no3]

Wizzim, ATs might be a fold preflop in such yucky position. But if you're not going to fold, I think I like a call best, especially if you can rely on some others entering the pot behind you (preferably, the blinds, not the button). But playing in multi-way pots kinda sucks as well, since you lose the showdown value of ace high, and you have to play very straight-forward. I can see arguments for each line of play, and I don't dislike any of them. The hand chart says its a re-raise, so I'd probably stick to ABC poker since you're new and 3-bet as my default line.

Just think about your play on the turn. You check to the button. If you had 3-bet, and he wasn't in the hand, you likely wouldn't miss that bet if you were ahead. Position is like, good & stuff, so if 3-betting allows you to obtain it, we should probably put the 3rd bet in.

should i be trying to cap [on the flop]?

God yes. Cap & fist-pump, because you have at least 30% equity (provided no one has a boat), and you're getting 3:1 on your money.

Once the ace hit, i figured if i was ahead, its only very slightly, should i have bet the turn here?

Definitely donk the turn. The button almost always has an over-pair here, and that is the 2nd worst card in the deck for TT-KK.

On the river, the pot is HUGE, and the button could easily be betting TT-KK. As far as the fish, he's going to have A9, 2x, 66, or 99 a ton here. However, the pot is really really big, and fish do goofy things. I would probably make a crying call here on this river.

 

[ats777]

I like the flop cbet in position 3way - barring the occasional hand that I don't want to be c/r'd off of, I'm cbetting close to 100%.

I like b/f'ing river. We're losing value against a ton of single pair hands that aren't going to raise us - heck 2 pair hands and maybe even a straight aren't necessarily going to raise here with those stats. So it's an easy fold to a raise, but I really want the extra BB from AJ/J9/99/88/etc.

Hey..past 100 posts. Woo-hoo..

You mention b/f river. This raises an interesting point for me in my play. If I bet and he raises, we are now getting 11-1 on our call. Should folding here really be that easy? This is a genuine question because I feel like I'm almost aluto-calling a c/r. What about if villain just bets out the river? Is this a fold as well. Again, given my play I'm probably apt to call. Big leak? Have a feeling it is. Guess I'm thinking of the "save pots, not bets" quote by ed miller when I'm doing this but am I taking it too far? Just looked in HEM and my River Call win Efficiency % is around 25%. No idea what this means but maybe it figures in this discussion.

 

[ats777]

I'm looking for some advice. I recently withdrew my whole roll from Ultimatebet, and I'm trying to decide what to do. I've been playing around with some funny money on stars, playing pretty under-rolled at 50c/$1 limit games. And honestly, I've been having more fun playing microstakes mixed games than I have in the past playing mid-stakes limit games on Ultimatebet. There's less stress, I play less tables, and its kinda fun bashing the crap out of newbies who have no idea what they're doing.

So the question is:

1) Do I deposit money on Full Tilt or Stars, so that I can whore bonus, get rakeback, make money, and play a high stress limit game.

2) Put about $600 on either Merge or Cake, whore some seriously high rakeback & bonus? But I'd have to play HU NLHE, LHE, or PLO.

3) Put the money into the stock market, and see how much I can run up my funny money on stars.

Pick one.


And Wizzim, please v-bet that river!

Which stock market?

 

[slycbnew]

Hey..past 100 posts. Woo-hoo..

You mention b/f river. This raises an interesting point for me in my play. If I bet and he raises, we are now getting 11-1 on our call. Should folding here really be that easy? This is a genuine question because I feel like I'm almost aluto-calling a c/r. What about if villain just bets out the river? Is this a fold as well. Again, given my play I'm probably apt to call. Big leak? Have a feeling it is. Guess I'm thinking of the "save pots, not bets" quote by ed miller when I'm doing this but am I taking it too far? Just looked in HEM and my River Call win Efficiency % is around 25%. No idea what this means but maybe it figures in this discussion.

Unless we have a read that he's spazzy or bluffs scare cards, this board isn't one I'm expecting to get played back at a lot, so if I get played back at on this board, I'm expecting to be behind. If I suspect I'm getting played back at, I'm much more likely to call - but really, it's such a bluff catcher spot...

 

[WiZZiM]

Wizzim, ATs might be a fold preflop in such yucky position. But if you're not going to fold, I think I like a call best, especially if you can rely on some others entering the pot behind you (preferably, the blinds, not the button). But playing in multi-way pots kinda sucks as well, since you lose the showdown value of ace high, and you have to play very straight-forward. I can see arguments for each line of play, and I don't dislike any of them. The hand chart says its a re-raise, so I'd probably stick to ABC poker since you're new and 3-bet as my default line.

I definately wasn't expecting the button to call/raise, he wasnt the type to limp behind with implied odds hands, But TBH i probably expect the fish to snap call a 3bet anyway, so it was probably better to 3bet now that i think of that.

Just think about your play on the turn. You check to the button. If you had 3-bet, and he wasn't in the hand, you likely wouldn't miss that bet if you were ahead. Position is like, good & stuff, so if 3-betting allows you to obtain it, we should probably put the 3rd bet in.

God yes. Cap & fist-pump, because you have at least 30% equity (provided no one has a boat), and you're getting 3:1 on your money.
ok good, just needed to know i was on the right track.
Definitely donk the turn. The button almost always has an over-pair here, and that is the 2nd worst card in the deck for TT-KK.

On the river, the pot is HUGE, and the button could easily be betting TT-KK. As far as the fish, he's going to have A9, 2x, 66, or 99 a ton here. However, the pot is really really big, and fish do goofy things. I would probably make a crying call here on this river.I thought about it and nearly timed out, lol. I just couldnt see this guy doing this with a lone ace, he just had to have one of the above hands, plus i had teh initial button better in the hand, though i wasnt overly worried about him, i expected him to have the range you mentioned, i put him on JJ-KK at that stage, but maybe a weirdly played AK, if the SB had folded i would have snapped the buttons bet. I was very confident in my read and i folded, button called the fishes raise with QQ and the fishy villain had 24 off, lol. managed to save a couple of bets, but still wondering if i made a long term mistake there, he would never bluff in that spot i dont think, but as you say, fish do crazy stuff, so he just might.

.. Thanks for the reply.

 

[ats777]

Unless we have a read that he's spazzy or bluffs scare cards, this board isn't one I'm expecting to get played back at a lot, so if I get played back at on this board, I'm expecting to be behind. If I suspect I'm getting played back at, I'm much more likely to call - but really, it's such a bluff catcher spot...

So essentially it gets back to the point that if you know you're beat on the river, save the bet. But of course, knowing that your beat is something that takes experience to know. Which leads me to say that if you're not sure, error on the side of making the call to save the pot.

This made me understand why ed miller would make this quote in a beginner's hold em book since most beginner's won't have the experience to make the distinction of whether they are truly beat on the river. Hence the advice to call. However, I should not just be blindly calling the river based on hope.