Limit Game Monthly Thread - June LO8

[c9h13no3]

The flop will be jammed, so you're really having to pay 4 to win (10.5+4+4+4+4) if everyone calls, or 6.6:1. If you're going to play this hand, I'd cap the flop myself, and I'd probably play it that way. Just kinda a nasty spot.

 

[slycbnew]

Raise flop? c/c turn?

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
Limit Holdem $0.50(BB) poker stars

SB ($16.80)
Hero ($41.25)
UTG ($12.65)
UTG+1 ($208)
CO ($56.15)
BTN ($13.15)

Dealt to Hero 9:diamond: 8:diamond:

UTG raises to $1, UTG+1 calls $1, CO calls $1, BTN calls $1, fold, Hero calls $0.50

FLOP ($5.25) J:spade: 5:heart: 7:club:
Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, CO bets $0.50, BTN raises to $1, Hero calls $1, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, CO calls $0.50

TURN ($8.25) J:spade: 5:heart: 7:club: 6:diamond:
Hero checks, CO checks, BTN bets $1, Hero raises to $2, CO folds, BTN calls $1

RIVER ($12.25) J:spade: 5:heart: 7:club: 6:diamond: Q:heart:
Hero bets $1, BTN raises to $2, Hero raises to $3, BTN calls $1

 

[ats777]

I like the way you played it Sly.

My thoughts barring specific reads on villains..

Flop: I think a call is good since I don't think we really want to be driving opponents out with our draw. Can't raise for value at this point and a c/r 3bet might likely drive out the CO forcing us to play our draw heads up OOP which can get tricky since we probably don't have much in the way of fold equity if we miss.

Turn: I think a call is risky because there isn't any guarantee that CO will come along too. If he folds we've missed out on a bet we could have gotten by c/r the button. However, if the BT is likely to fold to our c/r, I'd probably be more apt to just call. I dont think we want to leave that bet on the table.

Say we just call the turn... Do we bet out river or try a c/r with the risk it gets checked around?

I should point out that I play full ring, so there may be some 6 max nuances that I'm missing.

 

[slycbnew]

I'm still new and feeling my way around the game, so I'm not sure about the nuances. Though the FR hand you posted made my head ache, I never see that many limpers in 6max...

Yeah, I was thinking about the river getting checked behind, I wanted to lead the river and felt more comfortable betting the river if I bet the turn. Mebbe lead the turn, my hand may not be quite as face up?

Donking the turn makes some sense though I think, what do you think?

 

[ats777]

The flop will be jammed, so you're really having to pay 4 to win (10.5+4+4+4+4) if everyone calls, or 6.6:1. If you're going to play this hand, I'd cap the flop myself, and I'd probably play it that way. Just kinda a nasty spot.

Good point about the odds I was getting. In reality, the BB folded and everyone else called. I was using the odds of what actually happened in my analysis instead of what I could expect to happen. A big no-no.

You're right though, I have to expect that flop to get capped. If I do it myself, at least there's the potential of getting a free river if I miss...although not likely it occurs given the action. On the other hand, I guess my concern with capping would be scarring off flop callers and given my odds I need all the bets I can get. But should this even be a concern?

 

[WiZZiM]

I can see the value of donking in LHE, i mean its not something i really consider too much in NL, but in limit it's something i need to work into my game pretty quickly. I like the way you played it, C/C turn could be ok, if you knew CO was a bit spewy, keep him in the hand, then go for a check raise on river. if not, then id just raise it, as mentioned, dont want to miss out on a bet.

 

[ats777]

I'm still new and feeling my way around the game, so I'm not sure about the nuances. Though the FR hand you posted made my head ache, I never see that many limpers in 6max...

Yeah, I was thinking about the river getting checked behind, I wanted to lead the river and felt more comfortable betting the river if I bet the turn. Mebbe lead the turn, my hand may not be quite as face up?

Donking the turn makes some sense though I think, what do you think?

I have yet to aquire the necessary fortitude to attempt 6-max. Someday maybe...

I agree with leading the river. Can't really risk getting nothing.

Donking the turn is an interesting idea. Might have a chance to trap CO if BTN decides to still raise. Plus, think you're rigt that donking may keep your hand a bit more hidden. Even if both players call you're not really any worse off than c/r, plus your hand is a bit more hidden so you might get more action on the river.

 

[c9h13no3]

Donking the turn makes the most sense to me.

1) If button was raising a hand like 46 or 9T for a free card, he doesn't get to check back the turn.

2) We allow the CO in, and don't face him with two bets cold, as opposed to check/raising. And even if it goes, donk, CO calls, BTN calls, we still get the same number of bets in the pot.

3) We can possibly bet/3-bet instead of check/raising if button raises, which is pretty awesome.

 

[WiZZiM]

Well, second session of LHE played, pretty horrible really, have a few hands id like to discuss, especially concerning capping PF with hands like AK, Not sure if it's a good play to cap with hands such as that.

Also, had no real idea what to do postflop, i figured i had outs, but how many i wasnt sure, i guess i cant really include all aces and kings as outs here, is this a fold on the turn?

pokerstars Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Preflop: Hero is SB with K

, A

UTG raises, MP 3-bets, 1 fold, Hero caps, 1 fold, UTG calls, MP calls

Flop: (13 SB) 6

, 8

, Q

(3 players)
Hero bets, UTG raises, MP calls, Hero calls

Turn: (9.5 BB) 7

(3 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, MP calls, Hero calls

River: (12.5 BB) 10

(3 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, MP raises, Hero folds, UTG calls

Total pot: $33 (16.5 BB) | Rake: $1

 

[WiZZiM]

One more, just to keep you guys on your toes

After i raise UTG, with 4 callers, a flop that is semi-wet, is this a c-bet, C/C, C/F.

I figured it hits their calling ranges pretty well, and theres not too many turn cards i really like, an ace may be the only clean out, is this correct thinking? or too nitty?

PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A

, Q

Hero raises, 2 folds, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls

Flop: (8 SB) J

, 6

, 9

(4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, Button bets, 1 fold, BB calls, Hero folds

Turn: (5 BB) 7

(2 players)
BB checks, Button bets, BB calls

River: (7 BB) 4

(2 players)
BB checks, Button bets, 1 fold

Total pot: $14 (7 BB) | Rake: $0.50

 

[slycbnew]

First hand, wp imo.

My 2 cents on the second - I think the Q's are still possibly clean, and would be interested if there's a T turn - if it stayed 3way, I'd even be tempted by a K turn (may get 10:1 to call a gutshot). The 7s is def a c/f ldo if we'd called the flop.

 

[WiZZiM]

Just sat down at a 7game mixed table on tilt, planned on playing just a few hands, 50 or so.. these two hands were back to back against the same opponant...

full tilt poker Game #21452763201: Table Haig (6 max, deep) - $1/$2 Ante $0.20 - Limit Stud H/L - 0:18:13 ET - 2010/06/08
Seat 1: SomthingStrange ($14.35)
Seat 2: DegenGrinder ($137)
Seat 3: FigJammer ($73.40)
Seat 5: fold4wrap5 ($90.25)
Seat 6: traskMAN ($90.50)
fold4wrap5 antes $0.20
traskMAN antes $0.20
SomthingStrange antes $0.20
DegenGrinder antes $0.20
FigJammer antes $0.20
*** 3RD STREET ***
Dealt to DegenGrinder [5c]
Dealt to FigJammer [4h 3s] [6c]
Dealt to fold4wrap5 [8c]
Dealt to traskMAN [5h]
Dealt to SomthingStrange [3d]
SomthingStrange is low with [3d]
SomthingStrange has 15 seconds left to act
SomthingStrange brings in for $0.25
DegenGrinder calls $0.25
FigJammer calls $0.25
fold4wrap5 calls $0.25
traskMAN completes it to $1
HEKIMA sits down
SomthingStrange calls $0.75
DegenGrinder calls $0.75
FigJammer calls $0.75
fold4wrap5 calls $0.75
*** 4TH STREET ***
Dealt to DegenGrinder [5c] [6d]
Dealt to FigJammer [4h 3s 6c] [4c]
Dealt to fold4wrap5 [8c] [Ks]
Dealt to traskMAN [5h] [4s]
Dealt to SomthingStrange [3d] [Qd]
fold4wrap5 checks
traskMAN bets $1
SomthingStrange calls $1
DegenGrinder calls $1
FigJammer has 15 seconds left to act
HEKIMA adds $30
FigJammer calls $1
fold4wrap5 calls $1
*** 5TH STREET ***
Dealt to DegenGrinder [5c 6d] [7d]
Dealt to FigJammer [4h 3s 6c 4c] [6h]
Dealt to fold4wrap5 [8c Ks] [9d]
Dealt to traskMAN [5h 4s] [2d]
Dealt to SomthingStrange [3d Qd] [Ah]
FigJammer checks
fold4wrap5 checks
traskMAN bets $2
SomthingStrange folds
DegenGrinder calls $2
FigJammer has 15 seconds left to act
FigJammer calls $2
fold4wrap5 calls $2
*** 6TH STREET ***
Dealt to DegenGrinder [5c 6d 7d] [9c]
Dealt to FigJammer [4h 3s 6c 4c 6h] [6s]
Dealt to fold4wrap5 [8c Ks 9d] [7s]
Dealt to traskMAN [5h 4s 2d] [2s]
FigJammer checks
fold4wrap5 checks
traskMAN checks
DegenGrinder bets $2
FigJammer raises to $4
fold4wrap5 folds
traskMAN calls $4
DegenGrinder calls $2
*** 7TH STREET ***
Dealt to FigJammer [4h 3s 6c 4c 6h 6s] [Jc]
FigJammer bets $2
traskMAN raises to $4
DegenGrinder calls $4
FigJammer raises to $6
traskMAN raises to $8
DegenGrinder calls $4
FigJammer calls $2



Full Tilt poker game #21452857815: Table Haig (6 max, deep) - $1/$2 Ante $0.20 - Limit Stud H/L - 0:23:39 ET - 2010/06/08
Seat 1: SomthingStrange ($5.35)
Seat 2: DegenGrinder ($165.50)
Seat 3: FigJammer ($55.40)
Seat 4: HEKIMA ($22.95)
Seat 5: fold4wrap5 ($78.20)
Seat 6: traskMAN ($102.10)
DegenGrinder antes $0.20
fold4wrap5 antes $0.20
HEKIMA antes $0.20
SomthingStrange antes $0.20
traskMAN antes $0.20
FigJammer antes $0.20
*** 3RD STREET ***
Dealt to DegenGrinder [Jc]
Dealt to FigJammer [4d Ad] [5d]
Dealt to HEKIMA [Ac]
Dealt to fold4wrap5 [3c]
Dealt to traskMAN [Qs]
Dealt to SomthingStrange [3h]
fold4wrap5 is low with [3c]
fold4wrap5 brings in for $0.25
traskMAN completes it to $1
SomthingStrange calls $1
DegenGrinder folds
FigJammer raises to $2
HEKIMA folds
fold4wrap5 calls $1.75
traskMAN raises to $3
SomthingStrange raises to $4
FigJammer calls $2
fold4wrap5 calls $2
traskMAN calls $1
*** 4TH STREET ***
Dealt to FigJammer [4d Ad 5d] [Td]
Dealt to fold4wrap5 [3c] [7s]
Dealt to traskMAN [Qs] [8c]
Dealt to SomthingStrange [3h] [6c]
traskMAN bets $1
SomthingStrange raises to $1.15, and is all in
FigJammer raises to $2
fold4wrap5 calls $2
traskMAN raises to $3
FigJammer raises to $4
fold4wrap5 calls $2
traskMAN calls $1
*** 5TH STREET ***
Dealt to FigJammer [4d Ad 5d Td] [Ts]
Dealt to fold4wrap5 [3c 7s] [2s]
Dealt to traskMAN [Qs 8c] [9s]
Dealt to SomthingStrange [3h 6c] [7d]
FigJammer bets $2
fold4wrap5 calls $2
traskMAN calls $2
*** 6TH STREET ***
Dealt to FigJammer [4d Ad 5d Td Ts] [Jd]
Dealt to fold4wrap5 [3c 7s 2s] [Ks]
Dealt to traskMAN [Qs 8c 9s] [8s]
Dealt to SomthingStrange [3h 6c 7d] [6s]
FigJammer bets $2
fold4wrap5 has 15 seconds left to act
fold4wrap5 calls $2
traskMAN raises to $4
FigJammer raises to $6
fold4wrap5 folds
traskMAN raises to $8
FigJammer calls $2
*** 7TH STREET ***
Dealt to FigJammer [4d Ad 5d Td Ts Jd] [Jh]
FigJammer checks
traskMAN bets $2
FigJammer calls $2



Thoughts?

No real reads. i feel the first one is kind of unlucky, the second one im not sure about. After he caps on 6th, i was pretty sure that he just had to have it, again. should i still be capping here agaisnt a unknown. i can't really assume that hes a good player... I went with a gut feeling that he's either really bad, or hes slowplayed a monster that filled up on 6th. i dunno, critique please.

Total hands played for session 5, ~-$50.00, lol, great.

 

[WiZZiM]

Hey guys, i haven't had much time to really play much LHE, but im finding the going tough, i really am unsure about a lot of spots here, if you have the time to have a look id apprciate it, its only ~50 hands or so. Anything fundimentally im doing wrong? not getting value? etc. The table i selected was a good one, but i was on the from side of a moron imo.

http://www.pokerhandreplays.com/multihands.php/id/25338

 

[ats777]

Hey guys, i haven't had much time to really play much LHE, but im finding the going tough, i really am unsure about a lot of spots here, if you have the time to have a look id apprciate it, its only ~50 hands or so. Anything fundimentally im doing wrong? not getting value? etc. The table i selected was a good one, but i was on the from side of a moron imo.

http://www.pokerhandreplays.com/multihands.php/id/25338

Hey...disclaimer first...I play FR.

Yeah, certainly looked like a good table but I agree with your asssesment on being on the wrong side. Those situations are tough because I usually end up value betting myself for them. Still looking for the proper counter strategy in these situations. Certainly didn't see anything glaring when I watched it though.

 

[ats777]

Got a blind defense question here. I've been playing a lot recently with a particular villain with the following ATS numbers. Sample is over about 2.5K hands. (Full ring btw)

CO: 37.2
BTN: 63.0
SB: 74.3

He's been killing me and I've kind of spun myself in circles trying to combat this style. I ran some Pokerstove #'s and it basically seems he's raising ATC's on the BTN and SB minus some really trash hands. So, how do you combat this? I know avoiding seats to his left would be one step but it speaks to a bigger weakness with my blind defense. What's a good way to counteract this type of style?

Villain has a 22/14/1.8 and when I looked him up on PTR he's played 1M hands with a heft profit so he obv. has a clue.

 

[WiZZiM]

Hey...disclaimer first...I play FR.

Yeah, certainly looked like a good table but I agree with your asssesment on being on the wrong side. Those situations are tough because I usually end up value betting myself for them. Still looking for the proper counter strategy in these situations. Certainly didn't see anything glaring when I watched it though.

Thanks for checking it out, i still havnt really studied on playing limit so kind of just playing around on a single table just to get a feel for it all.

 

[WiZZiM]

Got a blind defense question here. I've been playing a lot recently with a particular villain with the following ATS numbers. Sample is over about 2.5K hands. (Full ring btw)

CO: 37.2
BTN: 63.0
SB: 74.3

He's been killing me and I've kind of spun myself in circles trying to combat this style. I ran some Pokerstove #'s and it basically seems he's raising ATC's on the BTN and SB minus some really trash hands. So, how do you combat this? I know avoiding seats to his left would be one step but it speaks to a bigger weakness with my blind defense. What's a good way to counteract this type of style?

Villain has a 22/14/1.8 and when I looked him up on PTR he's played 1M hands with a heft profit so he obv. has a clue.

Im not really sure, perhaps table select better? it would be pretty hard to play against a player like you describe, who is probably better than you, in position, its pretty much a no win situation, so id just suggest not putting yourself in that situation to begin with.

 

[WiZZiM]

Played my first 1000 hands, not many sure, only one tabling currently, still getting a feel for the game. I think i can see where you guys will say i need improving, id probably say i need to tighten my calling range up somewhat, to get a better VPIP/PFR ratio. I need to 3bet more probably, i think i need to be more aggressive, especially on the river.. missing a few bets here and there.. erm but anything you can point out that is really obvious, please let me know. thanks.

 

[c9h13no3]

Is that 6-max or full ring? Playing 6-max, you should pretty rarely call. Full ring however, you're very likely to get into a multi-way pot, so a VPIP/PFR split like that is more acceptable.

Definitely 3-bet more, bump up the aggression some more (raise/semi-bluff more draws that don't have showdown value, bluff catch a little less), and your VPIP looks really high in early & middle positions, so I'd look to play a little tighter.

You should be looking to 3-bet the vast majority of your hands against a button stealer because your range is stronger than his, and you don't want to give the BB 5:1 to enter the hand. But right now SB re-raise steal is really really low.

But once again, this is just sorta a guideline. Posting stats is somewhat helpful, but posting hands is more helpful. If I were you, I'd post some hands in hand analysis where you defend your SB against a button or CO raise.

 

[c9h13no3]

Wizzim, on the first stud 8 hand, everything looks fine.

On the second hand... I'd probably just jam away again. He sure is playing it like he's rolled up, but I'd at least put in one more raise on the river.

 

[WiZZiM]

Is that 6-max or full ring? Playing 6-max, you should pretty rarely call. Full ring however, you're very likely to get into a multi-way pot, so a VPIP/PFR split like that is more acceptable.
Yeah, 6 max.
Definitely 3-bet more, bump up the aggression some more (raise/semi-bluff more draws that don't have showdown value, bluff catch a little less), and your VPIP looks really high in early & middle positions, so I'd look to play a little tighter.
Yeah, im still in NLHE mode, i felt i was bluff catching way too often. In regards to the high VPIP, i was actually doing it on purpose, to balance my range in the early position seats, or is that just incorrect thinking? I guess i still have to worry about being OOP for the rest of the hand.
You should be looking to 3-bet the vast majority of your hands against a button stealer because your range is stronger than his, and you don't want to give the BB 5:1 to enter the hand. But right now SB re-raise steal is really really low.
Yep, i rarely bother with SB spots ATM, ill look to work this stuff into my game, and post some hands where ive tried to incorporate it.
But once again, this is just sorta a guideline. Posting stats is somewhat helpful, but posting hands is more helpful. If I were you, I'd post some hands in hand analysis where you defend your SB against a button or CO raise.

Thanks a lot, hugely helpful

 

[c9h13no3]

You can achieve a balanced range while opening a tighter range.

For example, the hand chart suggests this UTG: { 77+, A8s+, KJs+, QJs, JTs, AJo+, KQo }

That's only 10.3% of hands (you're playing 28%, wow crazy loose)! But you've got some small pairs, weak aces, and suited connectors in there. If you somehow found yourself in a game where balance actually mattered (it doesn't until at least 5/10+), then throw in 22-66, J9s, 9Ts, and 98s.

But having the ability to hit flops people don't expect you to hit in early position isn't all that important, because even on those flops, you'll often have an over-pair, 2 over cards, or a flush draw, because more of your range is suited/pairs/or two big cards. Plus the percentage of flops that come all low is just really rare.

For example: If your range is 10.3% of hands, and someone calls you on the button with say the top 30% (with AA-TT, KQ, AJ+ removed), you are still a 58% equity favorite on a low flop (I think I set the flop as 568r):

Hand 0: 58.059% { 77+, A8s+, KJs+, QJs, JTs, AJo+, KQo }
Hand 1: 41.941% { 99-22, AJs-A2s, KJs-K2s, Q6s+, J7s+, T6s+, 96s+, 86s+, 75s+, 64s+, 54s, AJo-A9o, KJo-K9o, Q8o+, J9o+, T9o, 98o }


So, what have we learned?

1) Balance is pointless at the limits you play.
2) You don't need to play a balanced range to still be a favorite on low flops.
3) Low flops are uncommon, and balancing your range for this rare situation isn't important.
4) Your range is still somewhat balanced when opening in EP, even if you have a tight range.
5) If you have any more preflop hand selection questions, refer to the hand chart, only deviating from this play when you have a good reason to.

 

[WiZZiM]

Hmm, food for thought, I definately noticed i was raising way way too many weak aces, id already stopped that. Everything makes total sense, I was making an effort to balance a range, when, all i succeeded in doing was opening a ridiculously loose range UTG, i was opening stuff like 45s 68s etc, lol. Back to the drawing boards tommorow, ill study up on that hand range chart. Do you have HEM? ive got a copy of leakbuster, but im not sure if it works for limit, i read an article that they recently included it, but i cant see it up yet. If any of you guys have used it, do you find it useful in any way?

Ill check out that hand chart when my computer stops playing up, Just about ready to throw it in the bin, along with my net connection.

 

[WiZZiM]

Also ive been playing around with a limit HUD setup, currently i have
VPIP/PFR/3B
F_BB/F_SB
WTSD C/r turn
Turn cbet
Aggression

Now i read an article recently, and he said that he inlcluded Raise 1st as a really important stat.

Now, im not sure if i really understand it, he went on to say that it allows him to put players on a specific range. I included it on my stats, but being a SNG player predominately, my only use of a HUD has been VPIP and 3B.

The two stats im unsure of how to use, or what i should be thinking about are Raise 1st, and also WTSD. Im guessing WTSD is just how often they hit showdown, meaning, if its really low, we can bet most rivers? any help would be appeciated

 

[c9h13no3]

Technically this is still a LO8 thread....

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-game-hand-analysis-50/50-1-fl-o8-full-ring-178204/#post1502068