- Status
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RamdeeBen
Legend
Silver Level
I keep hearing mixed opinions with people who say EV line is only half the story. Like, in the sense of what I was saying about turn/river value bets and villains calling incorrectly spiking and you still shove river for value and they get there your EV line dips. I just wish there was a way that EV line would represent flop/turn decisions rather than the actually equity at show downs on the river card when you have more equity pre/flop and turn.
So what is a better estimate of a win rate if EV line doesn't?
Also, thoughts on the 2 hands above based on the information I provided what line would you have taken?
I wouldn't say I was learning as such, sure I need some improvements to my game but I still feel I can beat 25nl cash games these days I feel I have a better understanding than I did a long time back. I don't feel uncomfortable at 25nl, I feel I am +EV at the limit although that might be a mistake to think that at the minute and maybe I should just stick solely to 25nl though. The only reason I played 50nl was because I won some buy-ins at 25nl and mainly just to see how the 50nl regs played. When I felt 50nl wasn't to much of a difference between 25nl so just thought I may aswell shot take a few buy-ins there and continue grinding it till I lose a few buy-ins or just run good and could of stayed there. I still wouldn't say it has gone bad and even though I'm still up in 50nl by 1.5 buy-ins after around 7k hands there the losses at 25nl combined with the 2 big pots lost in 50nl has now made it I can't continue at 50nl.
Thoughts on those 2 hands above?
Also - anyone have any thoughts on playing regular tables at the same time as deep? Not sure if it's all that optimal especially if playing a few tables? Sometimes feel I make incorrect folds on deep tables because I generally have more tables of regular games going so I'm zoned in on 100bb pokers as opposed to deep ones. Maybe should stick to regular tables or deep ones in each session and go from there or just play less tables is an option I guess.
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RamdeeBen
Legend
Silver Level
I can't think about ever folding here given he likely never has an ace and his sizing just made me feel he wants folds so he's either bluffing or has some weaker hand which might pay us off 9x, 22-88. I just wonder though, because were OOP do you ship it in now just incase he has a worse pair or potential draw which he might end up just folding on the river or do we call his raise and call any river? It's gross though if we call and it's a heart and he shoves.
I'm wondering what's best overall? It spots like this where I've got no real idea on what's best.
PokerStars - $0.50 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4
UTG: $30.80 (VPIP: 38.46, PFR: 14.10, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 81)
CO: $37.40 (VPIP: 43.04, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 82)
BTN: $52.38 (VPIP: 22.22, PFR: 13.89, 3Bet Preflop: 6.67, Hands: 37)
Hero (SB): $59.15
BB: $50.00 (VPIP: 19.08, PFR: 13.82, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 157)
Hero posts SB $0.25, BB posts BB $0.50
Pre Flop: (pot: $0.75) Hero has T:club: T:heart:
UTG calls $0.50, fold, fold, Hero raises to $3.00, fold, UTG calls $2.50
Flop: ($6.50, 2 players) 3:heart: A:club: 9:heart:
Hero bets $3.50, UTG calls $3.50
Turn: ($13.50, 2 players) A:spade:
Hero checks, UTG bets $13.00, Hero ?
I'm wondering what's best overall? It spots like this where I've got no real idea on what's best.
PokerStars - $0.50 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4
UTG: $30.80 (VPIP: 38.46, PFR: 14.10, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 81)
CO: $37.40 (VPIP: 43.04, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 82)
BTN: $52.38 (VPIP: 22.22, PFR: 13.89, 3Bet Preflop: 6.67, Hands: 37)
Hero (SB): $59.15
BB: $50.00 (VPIP: 19.08, PFR: 13.82, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 157)
Hero posts SB $0.25, BB posts BB $0.50
Pre Flop: (pot: $0.75) Hero has T:club: T:heart:
UTG calls $0.50, fold, fold, Hero raises to $3.00, fold, UTG calls $2.50
Flop: ($6.50, 2 players) 3:heart: A:club: 9:heart:
Hero bets $3.50, UTG calls $3.50
Turn: ($13.50, 2 players) A:spade:
Hero checks, UTG bets $13.00, Hero ?
BenjiHustle
Legend
Silver Level
QQ: Bet flop. Bet turn. Bet river. I mean, how deep do you want to go? I think the bigger issue above all else is going to end up being your bet sizing and your tendency to get committed to pots with sub-optimal holdings. You're obviously pulling from tourney knowledge. The truth is, you probably end up having to fold OTT if you take my line, but that's why I ask how deep you want to go.
JJ: What line? That's like an assault line. A pair alone isn't going to be enough for pulling stacks very often (KK+ being the exception sometimes). I can see getting to 3 bets OTF, but that AI bet has to tell you all that you need to know. Let it go.
TT: May as well let it go. I don't understand why you NEVER think of ditching it. What do you mean he never has an ace? Like half of his range is Ax here. I'd also be worried about 33.
JJ: What line? That's like an assault line. A pair alone isn't going to be enough for pulling stacks very often (KK+ being the exception sometimes). I can see getting to 3 bets OTF, but that AI bet has to tell you all that you need to know. Let it go.
TT: May as well let it go. I don't understand why you NEVER think of ditching it. What do you mean he never has an ace? Like half of his range is Ax here. I'd also be worried about 33.
c9h13no3
Is drawing with AK
Silver Level
Mmmmm....
Just played a session at the Maryland Live casino, just like old times. Played 6/12 HORSE, won maybe 10-15 big bets. And the poker room was nice as hell, and the game was pretty soft. Maybe I'll go by more often
.
Just played a session at the Maryland Live casino, just like old times. Played 6/12 HORSE, won maybe 10-15 big bets. And the poker room was nice as hell, and the game was pretty soft. Maybe I'll go by more often
.
c9h13no3
Is drawing with AK
Silver Level
Nah, big bet is 12, small 6. The big blind in the flop games is $6, the bring in for the stud games is $2.
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RamdeeBen
Legend
Silver Level
If I'm doing this all the time with my value hands, should I be doing this with my bluffs to or is to much spew given his flop/turn call?
PokerStars - $0.25 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4
BTN: $66.24 (VPIP: 14.29, PFR: 8.93, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 56)
Hero (SB): $25.00
BB: $25.35 (VPIP: 58.70, PFR: 50.00, 3Bet Preflop: 41.18, Hands: 48)
UTG: $27.60 (VPIP: 25.00, PFR: 20.00, 3Bet Preflop: 11.59, Hands: 166)
MP: $32.16 (VPIP: 27.17, PFR: 22.83, 3Bet Preflop: 5.88, Hands: 94)
CO: $50.39 (VPIP: 21.82, PFR: 14.55, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 56)
Hero posts SB $0.10, BB posts BB $0.25
Pre Flop: (pot: $0.35) Hero has T:diamond: 8:diamond:
fold, fold, CO raises to $0.75, fold, Hero raises to $2.50, fold, CO calls $1.75
Flop: ($5.25, 2 players) 7:diamond: 7:spade: 4:heart:
Hero bets $2.75, CO calls $2.75
Turn: ($10.75, 2 players) K:diamond:
Hero bets $5.75, CO calls $5.75
River: ($22.25, 2 players) Q:heart:
Hero bets $14.00 and is all-in
PokerStars - $0.25 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4
BTN: $66.24 (VPIP: 14.29, PFR: 8.93, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 56)
Hero (SB): $25.00
BB: $25.35 (VPIP: 58.70, PFR: 50.00, 3Bet Preflop: 41.18, Hands: 48)
UTG: $27.60 (VPIP: 25.00, PFR: 20.00, 3Bet Preflop: 11.59, Hands: 166)
MP: $32.16 (VPIP: 27.17, PFR: 22.83, 3Bet Preflop: 5.88, Hands: 94)
CO: $50.39 (VPIP: 21.82, PFR: 14.55, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 56)
Hero posts SB $0.10, BB posts BB $0.25
Pre Flop: (pot: $0.35) Hero has T:diamond: 8:diamond:
fold, fold, CO raises to $0.75, fold, Hero raises to $2.50, fold, CO calls $1.75
Flop: ($5.25, 2 players) 7:diamond: 7:spade: 4:heart:
Hero bets $2.75, CO calls $2.75
Turn: ($10.75, 2 players) K:diamond:
Hero bets $5.75, CO calls $5.75
River: ($22.25, 2 players) Q:heart:
Hero bets $14.00 and is all-in
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RamdeeBen
Legend
Silver Level
Hadn't even thoughts about x/J turn though, whats reason for that line?
Thoughts on here with river?
PokerStars - $0.50 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4
BTN: $44.98 (VPIP: 50.00, PFR: 50.00, 3Bet Preflop: 50.00, Hands: 2)
SB: $29.30 (VPIP: 25.00, PFR: 25.00, 3Bet Preflop: -, Hands: 4)
BB: $50.00 (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 4)
UTG: $50.00 (VPIP: 25.00, PFR: 25.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 8)
Hero (MP): $50.00
CO: $51.34 (VPIP: 33.33, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 3)
SB posts SB $0.25, BB posts BB $0.50
Pre Flop: (pot: $0.75) Hero has 7:club: 7:heart:
fold, Hero raises to $1.50, CO calls $1.50, fold, fold, fold
Flop: ($3.75, 2 players) 8:diamond: 2:heart: 5:spade:
Hero bets $2.00, CO calls $2.00
Turn: ($7.75, 2 players) 5:diamond:
Hero bets $4.50, CO calls $4.50
River: ($16.75, 2 players) 7:diamond:
Hero bets $12.00, CO raises to $24.00, Hero ...
Thoughts on here with river?
PokerStars - $0.50 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4
BTN: $44.98 (VPIP: 50.00, PFR: 50.00, 3Bet Preflop: 50.00, Hands: 2)
SB: $29.30 (VPIP: 25.00, PFR: 25.00, 3Bet Preflop: -, Hands: 4)
BB: $50.00 (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 4)
UTG: $50.00 (VPIP: 25.00, PFR: 25.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 8)
Hero (MP): $50.00
CO: $51.34 (VPIP: 33.33, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 3)
SB posts SB $0.25, BB posts BB $0.50
Pre Flop: (pot: $0.75) Hero has 7:club: 7:heart:
fold, Hero raises to $1.50, CO calls $1.50, fold, fold, fold
Flop: ($3.75, 2 players) 8:diamond: 2:heart: 5:spade:
Hero bets $2.00, CO calls $2.00
Turn: ($7.75, 2 players) 5:diamond:
Hero bets $4.50, CO calls $4.50
River: ($16.75, 2 players) 7:diamond:
Hero bets $12.00, CO raises to $24.00, Hero ...
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RamdeeBen
Legend
Silver Level
Well yeah that's what at first I thought, cos well we have a FH but then I was thinking at the time which hands other than 22 calls 2 streets which we beat and going to call river jam when they min raise here?
I just thought he's never raising even 22 here and he's always got like a complete bluff or 88/55 or is that giving to much credit?
Oh how come? you think he has a lot of better pairs here after calling the turn?
duggs
Killing me softly
Silver Level
Just don't think he calls with worse often enough, he has worse heaps, but I'd much rather let his air hands bluff than force it to fold and play river v a stronger range. 5x raise/calls, sizing is retarded so jam river
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RamdeeBen
Legend
Silver Level
Just won my biggest pot of the month, this player was so bad wouldn't normally open this hand in FR UTG but with him in BB I thought it was only a matter of time before he gave me his stack.
Won a fair few of him earlier but this was lovely.
PokerStars - $0.50 NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4
MP: $73.85 (VPIP: 28.21, PFR: 20.51, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 40)
MP+1: $50.04 (VPIP: 18.22, PFR: 10.22, 3Bet Preflop: 2.17, Hands: 226)
CO: $50.00 (VPIP: 19.88, PFR: 15.20, 3Bet Preflop: 1.52, Hands: 173)
BTN: $48.25 (VPIP: 27.78, PFR: 5.56, 3Bet Preflop: 7.69, Hands: 19)
SB: $55.73 (VPIP: 14.00, PFR: 10.00, 3Bet Preflop: 11.11, Hands: 50)
BB: $109.74 (VPIP: 72.58, PFR: 17.74, 3Bet Preflop: 3.23, Hands: 63)
Hero (UTG): $121.87
UTG+1: $38.00 (VPIP: 13.33, PFR: 2.96, 3Bet Preflop: 3.39, Hands: 135)
SB posts SB $0.25, BB posts BB $0.50
Pre Flop: (pot: $0.75) Hero has T:diamond: K:diamond:
Hero raises to $1.50, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, BB calls $1.00
Flop: ($3.25, 2 players) 2:diamond: 6:diamond: 3:diamond:
BB checks, Hero bets $2.00, BB calls $2.00
Turn: ($7.25, 2 players) Q:heart:
BB checks, Hero bets $5.00, BB raises to $10.00, Hero raises to $29.00, BB calls $19.00
River: ($65.25, 2 players) A:heart:
BB bets $77.24 and is all-in, Hero calls $77.24
BB shows Q:diamond: 5:diamond: (Flush, Queen High) (Pre 33%, Flop 4%, Turn 2%)
Hero shows T:diamond: K:diamond: (Flush, King High) (Pre 67%, Flop 96%, Turn 98%)
Hero wins $217.23
Won a fair few of him earlier but this was lovely.
PokerStars - $0.50 NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4
MP: $73.85 (VPIP: 28.21, PFR: 20.51, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 40)
MP+1: $50.04 (VPIP: 18.22, PFR: 10.22, 3Bet Preflop: 2.17, Hands: 226)
CO: $50.00 (VPIP: 19.88, PFR: 15.20, 3Bet Preflop: 1.52, Hands: 173)
BTN: $48.25 (VPIP: 27.78, PFR: 5.56, 3Bet Preflop: 7.69, Hands: 19)
SB: $55.73 (VPIP: 14.00, PFR: 10.00, 3Bet Preflop: 11.11, Hands: 50)
BB: $109.74 (VPIP: 72.58, PFR: 17.74, 3Bet Preflop: 3.23, Hands: 63)
Hero (UTG): $121.87
UTG+1: $38.00 (VPIP: 13.33, PFR: 2.96, 3Bet Preflop: 3.39, Hands: 135)
SB posts SB $0.25, BB posts BB $0.50
Pre Flop: (pot: $0.75) Hero has T:diamond: K:diamond:
Hero raises to $1.50, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, BB calls $1.00
Flop: ($3.25, 2 players) 2:diamond: 6:diamond: 3:diamond:
BB checks, Hero bets $2.00, BB calls $2.00
Turn: ($7.25, 2 players) Q:heart:
BB checks, Hero bets $5.00, BB raises to $10.00, Hero raises to $29.00, BB calls $19.00
River: ($65.25, 2 players) A:heart:
BB bets $77.24 and is all-in, Hero calls $77.24
BB shows Q:diamond: 5:diamond: (Flush, Queen High) (Pre 33%, Flop 4%, Turn 2%)
Hero shows T:diamond: K:diamond: (Flush, King High) (Pre 67%, Flop 96%, Turn 98%)
Hero wins $217.23
hackmeplz
Sleep Faster
Silver Level
Wtf how long are you here? You know I live like 15 minutes away right?Mmmmm....
Just played a session at the Maryland Live casino, just like old times. Played 6/12 HORSE, won maybe 10-15 big bets. And the poker room was nice as hell, and the game was pretty soft. Maybe I'll go by more often
c9h13no3
Is drawing with AK
Silver Level
Here? I live in Baltimore. I've been at Cardschat since... 2007 apparently.
I don't play very much these days, but I could be talked into playing on the random Saturday/Friday that I'm in town.
hackmeplz
Sleep Faster
Silver Level
Oh probably should have said this is zachvac I live in Columbia now.
R
RamdeeBen
Legend
Silver Level
I doubt this is ever a bluff. I doubt he's going to 3B hands like middle pocket pairs, he's just a solid tag sort of player. I think JJ is a real possibility given pre flop action. Question is - does he take this line with QQ/KK more often than JJ? The thing that makes me want to fold is that he's not even aggressive at all post flop...but seems also a bit nitty to just fold here. Sure his 3B and 4B flat range is going to consist of TT+ I think that's about it, I'd guess there's some AK he might call with but these are very unlikely going to raise the flop.
Given how dry the board is, I'm finding it hard to think anything other than JJ raises here ? I also find it hard to believe even KK/QQ would raises and of course there is a chance he could also have AA.
Not sure how the hell to proceed here, folding seems quite nitty but then I think well there's no draws. Calling seems ok, shoving seems bad given how deep we are..but then what if we call and turns a brick then what, fold to a bet ?
PokerStars - $0.50 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4
MP: $34.00 (VPIP: 40.00, PFR: 26.67, 3Bet Preflop: 14.29, Hands: 16)
CO: $54.35 (VPIP: 30.56, PFR: 27.78, 3Bet Preflop: 11.11, Hands: 36)
BTN: $29.95 (VPIP: 16.00, PFR: 16.00, 3Bet Preflop: 8.33, Hands: 25)
SB: $138.72 (VPIP: 17.08, PFR: 12.10, 3Bet Preflop: 2.68, Hands: 292)
Hero (BB): $121.26
UTG: $37.03 (VPIP: 20.22, PFR: 14.21, 3Bet Preflop: 4.76, Hands: 186)
SB posts SB $0.25, Hero posts BB $0.50
Pre Flop: (pot: $0.75) Hero has A:diamond: A:spade:
fold, fold, CO raises to $1.22, fold, SB raises to $4.16, Hero raises to $15.00, fold, SB calls $10.84
Flop: ($31.22, 2 players) J:diamond: 5:club: 4:heart:
SB checks, Hero bets $20.00, SB raises to $43.00, Hero ?
Given how dry the board is, I'm finding it hard to think anything other than JJ raises here ? I also find it hard to believe even KK/QQ would raises and of course there is a chance he could also have AA.
Not sure how the hell to proceed here, folding seems quite nitty but then I think well there's no draws. Calling seems ok, shoving seems bad given how deep we are..but then what if we call and turns a brick then what, fold to a bet ?
PokerStars - $0.50 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4
MP: $34.00 (VPIP: 40.00, PFR: 26.67, 3Bet Preflop: 14.29, Hands: 16)
CO: $54.35 (VPIP: 30.56, PFR: 27.78, 3Bet Preflop: 11.11, Hands: 36)
BTN: $29.95 (VPIP: 16.00, PFR: 16.00, 3Bet Preflop: 8.33, Hands: 25)
SB: $138.72 (VPIP: 17.08, PFR: 12.10, 3Bet Preflop: 2.68, Hands: 292)
Hero (BB): $121.26
UTG: $37.03 (VPIP: 20.22, PFR: 14.21, 3Bet Preflop: 4.76, Hands: 186)
SB posts SB $0.25, Hero posts BB $0.50
Pre Flop: (pot: $0.75) Hero has A:diamond: A:spade:
fold, fold, CO raises to $1.22, fold, SB raises to $4.16, Hero raises to $15.00, fold, SB calls $10.84
Flop: ($31.22, 2 players) J:diamond: 5:club: 4:heart:
SB checks, Hero bets $20.00, SB raises to $43.00, Hero ?
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RamdeeBen
Legend
Silver Level
Also, is this SPEW?
This guy was terrible, maybe I should just flat the flop?
PokerStars - $0.50 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4
UTG: $74.65 (VPIP: 36.17, PFR: 27.66, 3Bet Preflop: 13.33, Hands: 50)
CO: $71.58 (VPIP: 57.14, PFR: 14.29, 3Bet Preflop: 20.00, Hands: 7)
BTN: $93.68 (VPIP: 45.45, PFR: 36.36, 3Bet Preflop: 14.29, Hands: 22)
SB: $55.00 (VPIP: 28.07, PFR: 21.93, 3Bet Preflop: 9.52, Hands: 116)
Hero (BB): $111.16
SB posts SB $0.25, Hero posts BB $0.50
Pre Flop: (pot: $0.75) Hero has 6:spade: 5:club:
fold, CO raises to $1.50, BTN calls $1.50, fold, Hero calls $1.00
Flop: ($4.75, 3 players) 4:spade: 7:diamond: 6:heart:
Hero checks, CO bets $3.41, BTN calls $3.41, Hero raises to $15.00, fold, BTN raises to $52.95, Hero raises to $109.66 and is all-in, BTN calls $39.23 and is all-in
Turn: ($192.52, 2 players) Q:spade:
River: ($192.52, 2 players) K:spade:
Hero shows 6:spade: 5:club: (One Pair, Sixes) (Pre 33%, Flop 29%, Turn 18%)
BTN shows 6:club: 7:heart: (Two Pair, Sevens and Sixes) (Pre 67%, Flop 71%, Turn 82%)
BTN wins $190.02
This guy was terrible, maybe I should just flat the flop?
PokerStars - $0.50 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4
UTG: $74.65 (VPIP: 36.17, PFR: 27.66, 3Bet Preflop: 13.33, Hands: 50)
CO: $71.58 (VPIP: 57.14, PFR: 14.29, 3Bet Preflop: 20.00, Hands: 7)
BTN: $93.68 (VPIP: 45.45, PFR: 36.36, 3Bet Preflop: 14.29, Hands: 22)
SB: $55.00 (VPIP: 28.07, PFR: 21.93, 3Bet Preflop: 9.52, Hands: 116)
Hero (BB): $111.16
SB posts SB $0.25, Hero posts BB $0.50
Pre Flop: (pot: $0.75) Hero has 6:spade: 5:club:
fold, CO raises to $1.50, BTN calls $1.50, fold, Hero calls $1.00
Flop: ($4.75, 3 players) 4:spade: 7:diamond: 6:heart:
Hero checks, CO bets $3.41, BTN calls $3.41, Hero raises to $15.00, fold, BTN raises to $52.95, Hero raises to $109.66 and is all-in, BTN calls $39.23 and is all-in
Turn: ($192.52, 2 players) Q:spade:
River: ($192.52, 2 players) K:spade:
Hero shows 6:spade: 5:club: (One Pair, Sixes) (Pre 33%, Flop 29%, Turn 18%)
BTN shows 6:club: 7:heart: (Two Pair, Sevens and Sixes) (Pre 67%, Flop 71%, Turn 82%)
BTN wins $190.02
- Status