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Mr Sandbag
Legend
Silver Level
Well let's say a player has a life roll (checking accounts, savings, etc.) and a poker bankroll of 40 BI. Or 50 BI. Or whatever. If he wanted to start using poker as a source of income, how would he "pay himself" on a regular basis without putting his BR at risk? Hourly x volume? Like if he has an hourly of $20, he could move $600 from his bankroll to his life roll after playing 30 hours, or $800 if he played 40 hours, etc.
xdeucesx
Bar Master
Silver Level
Somebody made a great post about this on 2+2 in the live forum. I'll try to find it, but it was a formula. I think, don't quote me though, that it was 25 cents of every dollar you pay yourself and 75 cents stays in the roll.
So if you grind 40 hours at 20$ hour = 800$. Take 200$ and "pay yourself" then take 600$ and leave it in your roll.
xdeucesx
Bar Master
Silver Level
Would think it depends on size of your roll. If you have 50 or 60 bis+ for 1/3, I'd say start paying yourself far closer to true winrate. If it's your only source of income, I'd be on the safe side as far as BR goes, but obv up to you. I like to have a nice safe bankroll personally.
hackmeplz
Sleep Faster
Silver Level
I never understood why there was a need to have a "poker bankroll" vs. a "life bankroll". At any given time you have x dollars to your name. You then use x to figure out what stakes you should play or if you should look into getting a non-poker job (or if you already have one maybe to stop playing until you have more money?). I just don't get the point in splitting up your money like that especially if you can transfer between the two instantly and effortlessly.
Mentally though I think I actually do it the exact opposite as mentioned. I say "I want to have about 6 months expenses saved up and everything else is my 'poker roll'". My goal is to maximize the growth of my "poker bankroll" while not having to worry about living expenses. Every month I pay bills and my "poker bankroll" gets smaller by that much. So for me it's more of a spending/gambling/"investing" vs. savings than poker bankroll vs. life bankroll.
Mentally though I think I actually do it the exact opposite as mentioned. I say "I want to have about 6 months expenses saved up and everything else is my 'poker roll'". My goal is to maximize the growth of my "poker bankroll" while not having to worry about living expenses. Every month I pay bills and my "poker bankroll" gets smaller by that much. So for me it's more of a spending/gambling/"investing" vs. savings than poker bankroll vs. life bankroll.
D
DunningKruger
Legend
Silver Level
It's for psychological reasons I'd say, and making it easier to track not only how much you're prepared to risk at a given limit/time but your winnings and losses also. For people that don't need to worry about betting away money needed for life related stuff (insane BR nits, ppl who've long hit the point that exists for all of us where your stakes are determined not by your capital but your ability as a player, etc) I'd agree there's no real need for it.
hackmeplz
Sleep Faster
Silver Level
I kinda started with one idea and ended with another, I think my 2nd idea was more accurate. I personally use the 2nd one indirectly I don't really have a "bankroll" per se but I have told myself I will never let myself get below 6 months expenses and if I get to the point where the stakes I'm playing make it likely I could lose enough to go below that I will move down in stakes.
For almost anyone, especially people where the stakes are determined by your capital and not your ability as a player, the larger the poker bankroll the more money you will make. You can afford to play in bigger games (even if it's only when the games are good), you can afford to take more thinner edges, and just in general the more money you have the more money you will make. For these people, I think you should be "paying yourself" the bare minimum. I think you need to start with x months of expenses put away, I prefer 6 others may prefer as few as 3 months while others may even want to put away a year+, but that's your life roll. Every month take another month's expenses (including estimate for alcohol/entertainment I'm not just talking about essentials) out of your poker bankroll. If you are really crushing and want to reward yourself with a semi-large purchase do that out of your poker bankroll. But in general the best investment you can make with your money is your poker bankroll, so I would tend to maximize that. Once you get to the point where your poker bankroll is sufficiently large for the stakes you play and you have no aspirations to move up, you can start treating the poker bankroll as a poker+non-ordinary spending money roll. Spending money is an investment just like poker is, just an investment in your happiness. Maybe you want to go on a vacation, maybe you want a big-screen tv. Just judge how it will affect your spending+poker roll and make the decision from there.
Obviously this isn't the only way to approach things, but I think in general it's better if you're treating poker as a business. If you have a full-time job paying expenses it's a bit different but still similar, you just don't have to have as much saved for expenses since you have a close to guaranteed paycheck coming to pay for that. If the paycheck more than covers expenses you can use some of your paycheck to go into the poker bankroll (or poker+fun spending roll) and if it doesn't quite cut it but you're making money from poker you can put aside a smaller amount than a full-time pro would each month.
For almost anyone, especially people where the stakes are determined by your capital and not your ability as a player, the larger the poker bankroll the more money you will make. You can afford to play in bigger games (even if it's only when the games are good), you can afford to take more thinner edges, and just in general the more money you have the more money you will make. For these people, I think you should be "paying yourself" the bare minimum. I think you need to start with x months of expenses put away, I prefer 6 others may prefer as few as 3 months while others may even want to put away a year+, but that's your life roll. Every month take another month's expenses (including estimate for alcohol/entertainment I'm not just talking about essentials) out of your poker bankroll. If you are really crushing and want to reward yourself with a semi-large purchase do that out of your poker bankroll. But in general the best investment you can make with your money is your poker bankroll, so I would tend to maximize that. Once you get to the point where your poker bankroll is sufficiently large for the stakes you play and you have no aspirations to move up, you can start treating the poker bankroll as a poker+non-ordinary spending money roll. Spending money is an investment just like poker is, just an investment in your happiness. Maybe you want to go on a vacation, maybe you want a big-screen tv. Just judge how it will affect your spending+poker roll and make the decision from there.
Obviously this isn't the only way to approach things, but I think in general it's better if you're treating poker as a business. If you have a full-time job paying expenses it's a bit different but still similar, you just don't have to have as much saved for expenses since you have a close to guaranteed paycheck coming to pay for that. If the paycheck more than covers expenses you can use some of your paycheck to go into the poker bankroll (or poker+fun spending roll) and if it doesn't quite cut it but you're making money from poker you can put aside a smaller amount than a full-time pro would each month.
Matt Vaughan
King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
You kind of asked a question like it was absurd and then answered it incredibly reasonably lol. I think that if you ever have a real life expense that's unexpected, it's helpful to have money set aside (savings), as you say. But for regular expenses I agree it kind of makes no difference. For those expected expenses coming out of a poker "bankroll" is fine b/c it's basically just like paying ourselves slightly more so that it can go to expenses anyway.
If you want to keep your roll the same size and you actually have other income? Like where the size of your BR doesn't decide your well-being, and additionally, you have very low chance of going busto with a bankroll of X? If you don't care about BR growth at all, and you want liferoll and bankroll separate, then just decide what BR size you want - call it X. Play until your bankroll is at least X (if it's not there yet). Then decide what amount of money feels significant to you in terms of getting a little payday/bonus (probably going to be more than $100, but maybe not). Then just pay yourself when your BR reaches X + bonus. Pay yourself the bonus, or your BR back down to X -> whatever works. If you want your BR to grow some, but it's not a priority, grind until you've got a BR that's X + 2*bonus, and withdraw the bonus amount. Then your new BR size is X + bonus. And so on, and so forth.
I think this is fine so long as you think a downswing of size X/2 is pretty unlikely and a downswing of size X is nearly impossible.
Mr Sandbag
Legend
Silver Level
Great discussion. I am never able to find info about this anywhere else.
But yeah I'm referring to a situation where you have like 40 BI for a specific level with no intention of moving up, and poker is your only source of income.
But yeah I'm referring to a situation where you have like 40 BI for a specific level with no intention of moving up, and poker is your only source of income.
BenjiHustle
Legend
Silver Level
If you're paying yourself and then you lose some of your bankroll, how do you go about recovering losses? Does that just go back to playing up your bankroll and then going for payday? It seems like stopping at a certain level is kind of a bad idea just because driving to move up gives us some bankroll insurance, too, as we put more away. We can always snap-fold our opportunity to move up and pull from our roll, but then I would think we'd start grinding up again until we're ready to move up. At some point, through natural progression, we'll be ready, right?
Mr Sandbag
Legend
Silver Level
Well if you use Scourrge's idea, you won't be withdrawing under the threshold, so your winnings at that point would drop straight into your roll until you cross the threshold.
If you use the hourly x volume system, your bankroll won't suffer long term effects as long as you withdraw no more than your hourly rate. Yeah, sometimes you'll be taking out more some weeks than you actually made, but there will also be a ton of weeks where you are cashing out less than your actual profit.
R
redwards92
never going to move up
Silver Level
Quite an interesting discussion going on here i hate to come way outta left field with this, buttttt
Playing live game other night and a plo hand came up
6 handed im in SB. Blinds are .50/1
Action goes limp limp limp fold.
I look down at K♠K♣8:spade:7♣ and make it 8 to go
BB 3bets to 18 with ~20bb behind , i cover. First limper folds, second limp who is whale ships for 50 even who i also cover, other limper folds,
What is my action here? Dude on my left has AAxx pretty much 100% of the time where as whale can have all kinds of garbage
Keep in mind i really dont have a clue when it comes to plo so if it is an obvious decision here i apologize aha oh and posting from my phone so apologies if it is hard to read
Playing live game other night and a plo hand came up
6 handed im in SB. Blinds are .50/1
Action goes limp limp limp fold.
I look down at K♠K♣8:spade:7♣ and make it 8 to go
BB 3bets to 18 with ~20bb behind , i cover. First limper folds, second limp who is whale ships for 50 even who i also cover, other limper folds,
What is my action here? Dude on my left has AAxx pretty much 100% of the time where as whale can have all kinds of garbage
Keep in mind i really dont have a clue when it comes to plo so if it is an obvious decision here i apologize aha oh and posting from my phone so apologies if it is hard to read
BenjiHustle
Legend
Silver Level
Do you think it's better to do this to keep from being too results oriented?
hackmeplz
Sleep Faster
Silver Level
What happens when you start on a downswing and now you're super under-rolled because you're withdrawing and losing? Also how can you possibly know your hourly rate at live poker with any accuracy whatsoever?
xdeucesx
Bar Master
Silver Level
Just undervalue yourself. Not crazy to think your beating 1/3 for 12$/hr. That's probably below your real $/hr, but should start as a solid figure.
I'm guessing you don't take this method of "withdrawing" unless you have a super huge BR for live that can withstand some serious swings.
I'm guessing you don't take this method of "withdrawing" unless you have a super huge BR for live that can withstand some serious swings.
Mr Sandbag
Legend
Silver Level
Agree with Deuces about undervaluing yourself. If you think your win rate is $14/hr, you could always cash out $10-$12/hr. Downswings can hurt, but even if you downswing 10 BI over a month and withdraw 1 BI each week, you're still sitting on over 25 BI.
Matt Vaughan
King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
I'm not a PLO player, but if you know for a fact that BB has AAxx, then can we not just fold? Feels disgusting, but if he's going to 4bet over a flat 100% then there's just not going to be enough money in the pot to gii for? But it's close because double suited KK87 is actually a decent KKxx. We'll have anywhere from 25-45ish % equity depending on what AAxx he has, but I don't know the distribution and don't have software to help me
My gut is saying we could flat, hope he has QQxx sometimes or w/e and won't jam, and then gii if he DOES jam b/c now we're getting the right price. But that feels kind of nasty based on reads.
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