taaron
Visionary
Silver Level
K
kmart99
Enthusiast
Silver Level
Low stakes tournaments definitely have weaker players than low stakes cash games.
Cash game players are much better post flop than many of the micro stake tournament players(I find).
Many of the cash game players will be grinding 4+ tables at once in a 10 hour session picking their spots very carefully. It's a grind.
If you go in to a cash game expecting to double your stack every 3 hours like you would in a tournament, you'll get mauled.
A decent rate in a cash game (for my skill level) is 10xBB/hr. So if you're playing 10c-25c. Be happy with 2.50/hr per table. JMHO. There could be some sharks doing better, but most ppl are just losing.
Cash game players are much better post flop than many of the micro stake tournament players(I find).
Many of the cash game players will be grinding 4+ tables at once in a 10 hour session picking their spots very carefully. It's a grind.
If you go in to a cash game expecting to double your stack every 3 hours like you would in a tournament, you'll get mauled.
A decent rate in a cash game (for my skill level) is 10xBB/hr. So if you're playing 10c-25c. Be happy with 2.50/hr per table. JMHO. There could be some sharks doing better, but most ppl are just losing.
K
kmart99
Enthusiast
Silver Level
Low varience = Less risk... Maybe.
But definitely not easier. Cash games require far more post flop skills than tournaments. No question.
B
burdesasha
Enthusiast
Silver Level
In a cash game I can stay deep stacked
S
subdylzep
Rock Star
Silver Level
These games are just... NIGHT AND DAY. I mean you are comparing apples to oranges here, there are just so many different variables to account for when playing cash games, that are not going to happen in tournament play. I mean you are strictly looking for VALUE in cash games, that is it. In tournaments you are looking to increase your chip stack and double up to get further along. In cash games, your blinds never increase and your play can vary so much, plus you are looking at many different styles of players as well. I am an awesome live poker player even in cash, better in tournaments, i have a ton of profit and ROI. But i absolutely SUCK at online micro stakes cash, and i dont think that has anything to do with my style of play, and i doubt it has anything to do with yours either, but only playing 2-3 years that is not very long and you probably have a lot more to learn, especially if you are used to playing tournaments. Micro stakes is basically gambling, not very much of any kind of stategy used here so you really have to make sure you note people and their tendencies a lot. Same in any cash game, but you are going to encounter many more fish at the lower level stakes. Also, you need to learn about some different ways to obtain value in poker hands, not always are your best hands going to necessarily bring you the most value, many times value hands in cash games are things like 89 suited or 36 suited when you are playing against something who thinks they flopped the wheel w A4 and you have the straight to the 6. Of course hands like those are only value worthy if you are on a tight aggressive table and can see the hands at a low amount to get to the flop and also have a huge amount of implied odds w the opposing players money. There is much more to think about and much more often your image plays a bigger role in cash games. Its more of an art form than tournament style play, where patience is valued more than deception. A big bluff in a tournament may bring you some chips, but a great bluff in a cash game can yield plenty of money and often throw off your oponents giving you future opportunities to felt them. You must also keep in mind that you need to play within your bankroll %s, to most of the professionals I have talked to in Vegas, they advocate 100 max buy ins on any cash table, most books call for 50 but they say 100 it more comfortable, if you play omaha at least double that. Any time you are playing with scared money you are going to throw off the way the game is intended to be played.
Lets go for an example i use often to explain to newcomers how poker odds and %s and money can often be tricky and hard to understand:
Tournament.
Lets say you hold Ah4h on the BB. You are mid way through the tournaments lets say 100 entrants 15 to the money w an average stack.
Flop comes 3h 2h 10s
3 way to the flop. lets say min raised for the sake of argument.
UTG open shoves pot which is double your stack
Button has same stack as you he calls ALL IN.
Now lets say blinds are deep here, you have 50BB total right now after the preflop call. You have the nut flush draw and a gutshot straight draw. Chances are, and for any good poker player you are going to fold this in a tournament and wait for a better chance to make your stand, hopefully heads up in isolation and with better odds than 35-38% or whatever it is. close to that.
Lets look at the same situation from a cash stance.
Blinds are $5 - $10
Again you hold Ah4h in the BB. Same min raise so the pot is at 20$.
if you have 50BBs you have $500 behind.
Lets say UTG has $1000 behind and Button has $500 behind after the preflop min raise.
Same flop 2h 3h 10s
UTG open shoves, button Calls. Now is it advantageous for you to make this call for all your money? Absolutely.
Again your %s arent changing at all, but the game is different and so are the stategies and way you play.
Now in some cases in the tournament you would definitely call, usually if you didnt have a deep stack and blinds were raising quick.
In the cash game you might fold if you are playing w scared money. BUT YOU NEVER SHOULD FOLD!
So your %s now are the same 35-38% to hit the nut flush or hit your gutshot straight, lets just say you put it on 37% to win the hand either way.
You are placing $500 to win a total of 60+1500. so $1560, which is 3-1 on your money right?
And 37% is more than 33% therefore its a justified call. you continue this trend forever and you'll be profitable.
Win or lose the hand doesn't matter. The point here is that the games are completely different and the way you play them needs to be adjusted accordingly.
Not sure if anyone agrees w me in this example, but thats just one. There are plenty where you can see that gutshots and turned sets can be much more valuable than having AA preflop.
Personally, i love when someone tight makes a 3 bet to something manageable on any cash table. I can instantly put them on AA or KK and i'll play ATC to the flop almost everytime if its reasonably within my cash limits. ESPECIALLY if they have a lot of money behind them (implied). I will hope to hit 2 pair flop a set, hit trips, anything because i know where i am in the hand, I wont over invest and i know that a begginner will overplay his AA or KK almost everytime. Implied Odds and value are some of the main aspects you are looking for in cash games. I will stress playing live and playing higher stakes though. Almost any live game will be at least 1-2 blinds so you are ok there usually, but if they seem like they dont know what they are doing u can always move up to 2-5 or 5-10, but beware some of those players are really really good.
When i was playing for about 2-3 years I went to vegas to Mandalay Bay. Now i was always profitable, felting entire tables in cash games at my local casinos in WV or PA, and cashing in tournaments about 25-35% of the time so i knew i was good.
The table I decided to sit at, 2am in the morning, had about 7 pros on it out of the 8 playing. Unfortunately, I didnt realize this at the time, and even if i had, i would have thought it good practice or I could beat these gentlemen.
I GOT SCHOOLED SO HARD, it wasnt close to funny.
These pros had me doubting every move i made (didnt help i wasnt catching many cards, but wouldnt have mattered if i was)
I was folding when i was ahead and raising when i was behind, they had me so upside down backwards and sideways.
Now if it had been a tournament and i was playing in it, i would have been fine to sit and wait patiently to play a hand against some of these players, but i couldn't do that and even when i did, it was a mistake. I lost about $1000 within about 3 hours. It was brutal and truly made me realize how good some poker players can be. I'd say now that Im older, more experienced, and have much more knowledge i could play against them, but it would still be very tough. And this was on a $1/$2 no limit table at mandalay bay at 2am. So be wary. If you wanna get into cash games, learn what you are dealing with.
You'll often see the professionals play AA or KK on something like "poker after dark" or some high stakes game on espn, But they never over play them and often wait until all the cards are out on the board before making any obscene moves, Unless your name is Dwan or Ivey lol. Just be careful and dont think you are a bad player because of micro stakes, and do much much more reading and learning before jumping onto another cash game.
My advice, read, learn, get a tutor, play within your Bankroll %s and then jump on a live game and see how you do. Gl in future events.
Lets go for an example i use often to explain to newcomers how poker odds and %s and money can often be tricky and hard to understand:
Tournament.
Lets say you hold Ah4h on the BB. You are mid way through the tournaments lets say 100 entrants 15 to the money w an average stack.
Flop comes 3h 2h 10s
3 way to the flop. lets say min raised for the sake of argument.
UTG open shoves pot which is double your stack
Button has same stack as you he calls ALL IN.
Now lets say blinds are deep here, you have 50BB total right now after the preflop call. You have the nut flush draw and a gutshot straight draw. Chances are, and for any good poker player you are going to fold this in a tournament and wait for a better chance to make your stand, hopefully heads up in isolation and with better odds than 35-38% or whatever it is. close to that.
Lets look at the same situation from a cash stance.
Blinds are $5 - $10
Again you hold Ah4h in the BB. Same min raise so the pot is at 20$.
if you have 50BBs you have $500 behind.
Lets say UTG has $1000 behind and Button has $500 behind after the preflop min raise.
Same flop 2h 3h 10s
UTG open shoves, button Calls. Now is it advantageous for you to make this call for all your money? Absolutely.
Again your %s arent changing at all, but the game is different and so are the stategies and way you play.
Now in some cases in the tournament you would definitely call, usually if you didnt have a deep stack and blinds were raising quick.
In the cash game you might fold if you are playing w scared money. BUT YOU NEVER SHOULD FOLD!
So your %s now are the same 35-38% to hit the nut flush or hit your gutshot straight, lets just say you put it on 37% to win the hand either way.
You are placing $500 to win a total of 60+1500. so $1560, which is 3-1 on your money right?
And 37% is more than 33% therefore its a justified call. you continue this trend forever and you'll be profitable.
Win or lose the hand doesn't matter. The point here is that the games are completely different and the way you play them needs to be adjusted accordingly.
Not sure if anyone agrees w me in this example, but thats just one. There are plenty where you can see that gutshots and turned sets can be much more valuable than having AA preflop.
Personally, i love when someone tight makes a 3 bet to something manageable on any cash table. I can instantly put them on AA or KK and i'll play ATC to the flop almost everytime if its reasonably within my cash limits. ESPECIALLY if they have a lot of money behind them (implied). I will hope to hit 2 pair flop a set, hit trips, anything because i know where i am in the hand, I wont over invest and i know that a begginner will overplay his AA or KK almost everytime. Implied Odds and value are some of the main aspects you are looking for in cash games. I will stress playing live and playing higher stakes though. Almost any live game will be at least 1-2 blinds so you are ok there usually, but if they seem like they dont know what they are doing u can always move up to 2-5 or 5-10, but beware some of those players are really really good.
When i was playing for about 2-3 years I went to vegas to Mandalay Bay. Now i was always profitable, felting entire tables in cash games at my local casinos in WV or PA, and cashing in tournaments about 25-35% of the time so i knew i was good.
The table I decided to sit at, 2am in the morning, had about 7 pros on it out of the 8 playing. Unfortunately, I didnt realize this at the time, and even if i had, i would have thought it good practice or I could beat these gentlemen.
I GOT SCHOOLED SO HARD, it wasnt close to funny.
These pros had me doubting every move i made (didnt help i wasnt catching many cards, but wouldnt have mattered if i was)
I was folding when i was ahead and raising when i was behind, they had me so upside down backwards and sideways.
Now if it had been a tournament and i was playing in it, i would have been fine to sit and wait patiently to play a hand against some of these players, but i couldn't do that and even when i did, it was a mistake. I lost about $1000 within about 3 hours. It was brutal and truly made me realize how good some poker players can be. I'd say now that Im older, more experienced, and have much more knowledge i could play against them, but it would still be very tough. And this was on a $1/$2 no limit table at mandalay bay at 2am. So be wary. If you wanna get into cash games, learn what you are dealing with.
You'll often see the professionals play AA or KK on something like "poker after dark" or some high stakes game on espn, But they never over play them and often wait until all the cards are out on the board before making any obscene moves, Unless your name is Dwan or Ivey lol. Just be careful and dont think you are a bad player because of micro stakes, and do much much more reading and learning before jumping onto another cash game.
My advice, read, learn, get a tutor, play within your Bankroll %s and then jump on a live game and see how you do. Gl in future events.
Vitaliy Popik
Enthusiast
Silver Level
Cash games are not to me too )) I dont like it.. I looses very much money in this kind of poker..
I live tournaments , its very easy to take a prizes places.. But i never been at the final table
What i need to do? (
I live tournaments , its very easy to take a prizes places.. But i never been at the final table
What i need to do? (
real_lee85
Enthusiast
Silver Level
Not a cash player....
I totally agree with that headline. I am a much more profitable tournament player as opposed to cash game player. Numbers don't lie. I have a graph in my threads ive posted and its always been like that for the 10 years I've been playing
I totally agree with that headline. I am a much more profitable tournament player as opposed to cash game player. Numbers don't lie. I have a graph in my threads ive posted and its always been like that for the 10 years I've been playing
P
PW300
Rock Star
Silver Level
I'm in the same position. My tournament results are much better than my cash table results. In a tournament if you make a big mistake you could potentiality go out. In a cash game, people take risks and if they lose they just rebuy. I have to learn to not play so safe.
A
AcesDJD
Enthusiast
Silver Level
People will generally say you can't outline a strategy for cash because it always "Depends". Generally true, but you can set a few general rules for yourself which you can later break when you have more experience. At full ring, you want Kings or Aces to get it all in preflop against a full stack. You can even fold kings at times when you play an absolute nit. You generally want two pair or better to get it all in postflop. Of course on a KQJ of diamonds flop, even two pair is iffy. I don't like raising with AQ or KQ unless I have a good feel for my opponents. Don't bother raising small pocket pairs less than nines as it will most likely be a money leak. 8s or less you're looking for a set or to get out. Until you become a winning player you may want to just call with 9s and 10s and sometimes even jacks. They way you want to open things up is raising with suited connectors (but not often, mainly when you've been card dead for many circuits). Then you play the cards the way you'd play aces preflop and on the flop. Obviously if you get reraised preflop all in, you dump them, and if you're 2/3 pot bet gets raised big time on the flop and you have nothing you dump it. But if you follow the tight strategy I've outlined, you should find yourself taking down a number of pots uncontested. As you gain experience, you'll add back in hands like KJ. For me, its a raise or fold hand with a few exceptions as are most of the other trouble hands. What you don't want to do is be the one caller to someone else's raise and have KQ, KJ, AQ etc. Hope this helps.
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S
Streethawk71
Enthusiast
Silver Level
I consider myself a tourney player, but sometimes I'll play in a cashgame if I fall off the weekly tourney early, but only ever for one buy. So far I've only broken even or made a small profit. I don't know any secret, just play it tight and only start with an amount that truly doesn't matter if you win or lose.
If you're confident enough to progress past the flop you must be prepared to lose it all. Be certain the odds are in your favour and just shrug it off if you fail.
If you're confident enough to progress past the flop you must be prepared to lose it all. Be certain the odds are in your favour and just shrug it off if you fail.
BogdanStark
Visionary
Silver Level
Typical situation. I heard a lot about it, and on my personal example I can say its true.
I spent a lot of MTT winning money at the cash tables. Its hard transition from tournaments to cash... it should take some time, to realise and some grow special cash strategy different from MTT
thetick33
Legend
Silver Level
playing for pennies is rough in first place have some suggestions but you got to make rules you have to follow those rules. Any level is beatable imho you just have to play a strict tight game and walk when you need to walk.
I will say working with some poker pros on my weaknesses helped a ton. I worked on playing LIMIT holdem which I hate. I love the results but the discipline is not my style. I am looser than how I need to play limit in order to win steadily.
You need a game plan to play ring and you need to follow that game plan. Win certain amounts walk lose certain amount walk etc..
I would much rather play 50 cents 1.00 stakes over pennies or 2 cents 4 cents
to me there is simply more respect given to bets at higher levels so makes it easier and is a lot easier to get people off bad hands
thetick33
Legend
Silver Level
I dont like to call out others so will try to say this as politically correct as possible. This is what I was talking about having rules
Rules solid defined rules on what cards to play starting hands and rules on what will win for what amounts and most important when to walk away.I totally disagree with the bold if i didnt win 8 dollars in first hour on 25 cents id walk away
my whole goal would be to win 75 total double up on 25 put into play. I would expect that for sure within 2 hours maybe tops would be 3 hours.
If I lose say 5 bucks in first hour would walk
playing your 2 cent 4 cent which is not something i play would want to win 5.00 to 8.00 in a few hours
basing this on 1 cent 2 cent and expecting to win 2.40 to 5 bucks an hour on this level
also no disrespect kmart at least you have rules to follow and to me that is most important thing in playing ring over mtt's
PapaC
Legend
Silver Level
A lot of players say cash games and MTTs have a lot of difference between the two, but as far as I see while playing them both at the same time, I do not see what other players are seeing. Maybe some one can explain to me what those difference are. I just don't see anything that can alter the way I play , but I guess all the stuff like chips, many more players to deal with, buy ins are about the same as sitting down at a cash table with a $10 buy in, playing cash is good for me because I can get up and leave when I want to. I can't do that playing MTTs and that is what has me moving to only cash at BCP. Playing long hours is not for me. If I want to play MTTs I will play them at Full Flush Poker. These things I'm talking about has no effect on me at all. So I'm always just playing my game in either one. But I could be missing some things I need to know about either one so I can be a better player if I know what you all are talking about. But really it don't matter much to me, I will be playing the way I learned to play right here. It works for me and so does the things I add to my game here and there. So I'm done now and GL to you all no matter what games you play this weekend
thetick33
Legend
Silver Level
the biggest difference is when your having a bad day? you can lose a hell of a lot more money quicker playing ring than at mtt's. I guess if you go play 25cent 50 cent put up 100 dollars you could go play a mtt for 100.00 bucks?
No one really does this I hope lol. So for me I have to be running very well to enter into the ring game field. If I am running hot I load some tables for sure.
If running regular might have one ring game or sng and than play the 3 tourneys etc..
if running bad i am NO where going near a money table.
Too easily to get crushed.
To realize how your playing how the cards and deck are treating you is the number one aspect to me of bank roll management. Be aware if your losing all races you can still money in mtt/s but if your in ring? You are gonna have a very bad day usually
The one thing is this too the variance sometimes you are running well in ring and not in mtt.s this happens be aware of it use your time and money on whats working while its working
So that is only advice more tables or shots you have easier it is to build that bankroll but its also easy to destroy a bankroll if not being diligent in how you are forking it out
Rules again. I have a lot of rules has made me profitable for a number of years.
Go with your gut if its telling you hey you aint winning unless you can burn that money and not let it bother you get out
Take the day off whatever.I have had months of bad beats where couldnt get nothing to work right lol and even put some of that on here the unreal of bad luck lasting forever?
I did this kept track and still made money for those months. Had to play styles and tightness I am not cool with. But I came out ahead. Some like papac I showed the results
My friend and how I stayed ahead I have no ideal lol but was my discipline and rules and walking fast when you got to walk away