vinnie
Legend
Silver Level
This number of showdowns means your winrate amounts to one bad call. If you fold to one raise, you're +bb/100 instead of -bb/100. Can you rerun this with the same filter except filtering out all the times you were raised and then you called.
These are also very small sample sizes for both types of hands. It only takes 1-2 bad beats or lucky breaks to swing the winrate massively up or down. You can't really draw any conclusions from hand samples of 213 and 132 hands. I was going to post my numbers for those situations (+859bb/100 & +1597bb/100 respectively) but the sample sizes are both really tiny (under 100 hands). So it's pretty meaningless. I have a small sample size for 5nl. I moved up to 10nl on my current site really quickly because I knew I could win there and had built a roll to handle it.
Anyway, 90k hands and you can't beat 5nl? You have got to have some serious leaks in your game and players being too willing to put money in when they're behind is probably not one of them. I've beat 5nl on multiple sites. It can be done.
LD1977
Legend
Silver Level
Most TPTK hands don't get to showdown, either I get raised and decide I am beat or they fold to the barreling.
- If I bet and got raised, I lost 2 out of 3 hands (both to sets, one of the two was improved to top 2 pairs on the turn). Amounts I called and lost were around -3.3$ total.
- If I barreled twice and got donked into on the river, I lost 3 out of 4, total loss -2.9$. Once a flopped set, others were draws that arrived and a rivered A vs my pair of Kings. One of these times my hand improved to a set of Kings on the way (lost to a straight).
- If I bet and got raised, I lost 2 out of 3 hands (both to sets, one of the two was improved to top 2 pairs on the turn). Amounts I called and lost were around -3.3$ total.
- If I barreled twice and got donked into on the river, I lost 3 out of 4, total loss -2.9$. Once a flopped set, others were draws that arrived and a rivered A vs my pair of Kings. One of these times my hand improved to a set of Kings on the way (lost to a straight).
honeycrush
Legend
Bronze Level
Although I agree with the fact that it's more difficult to play against a table full of maniac fish rather than just one or two on a table, 5nl is definitely beatable. And that's coming from someone (me!) who only started playing recently and that has had a lot of trouble at that level.
My main problem was calling too many river raises when the flush or straight inevitably came on the river. I couldn't believe that every time they would not fold to my huge bets and would catch their cards on the river. But guess what - they did!
Maybe something similar is happening to you.
If passive fish raise you on the river then the majority of the time - unless you have the nuts - you need to fold. Even TPTK is no good here. But if the flush/straight or whatever doesn't come in then you MUST value bet.
It only takes a few bad all-in calls to decimate your winrate. Those losses can be increased by not getting the most value from the fish who call down to the river to chase and miss. Against aggrofish you just need to tighten up and get the money in good. Of course there will be coolers and suckouts but a lot of these will be cancelled out by the many small pots you win by raising and cbetting and getting folds.
Anyway - good luck! Hope things turn around for you. If you listen to all the good advice you've been given, I'm sure they will.
My main problem was calling too many river raises when the flush or straight inevitably came on the river. I couldn't believe that every time they would not fold to my huge bets and would catch their cards on the river. But guess what - they did!
Maybe something similar is happening to you.If passive fish raise you on the river then the majority of the time - unless you have the nuts - you need to fold. Even TPTK is no good here. But if the flush/straight or whatever doesn't come in then you MUST value bet.
It only takes a few bad all-in calls to decimate your winrate. Those losses can be increased by not getting the most value from the fish who call down to the river to chase and miss. Against aggrofish you just need to tighten up and get the money in good. Of course there will be coolers and suckouts but a lot of these will be cancelled out by the many small pots you win by raising and cbetting and getting folds.
Anyway - good luck! Hope things turn around for you. If you listen to all the good advice you've been given, I'm sure they will.
LD1977
Legend
Silver Level
I learned to watch out for flushes early. Straights were/are more difficult since I find it hard to wrap my mind around people calling pot sized bets with gutshots and hitting them so often.
Since there are very often possible straights on the board, it is hard to estimate when they have hit it and when not especially with weird ass ranges that are hard to guess (example from yesterday https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-game-hand-analysis-50/5-nlhe-full-ring-qq-utg-225986/).
Since there are very often possible straights on the board, it is hard to estimate when they have hit it and when not especially with weird ass ranges that are hard to guess (example from yesterday https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-game-hand-analysis-50/5-nlhe-full-ring-qq-utg-225986/).
honeycrush
Legend
Bronze Level
Thanks.
By tightening up I mean don't try to play them at their own game by calling with trashy hands and hoping to hit miracle cards like they do. That often ends in tears... I know. I've been there.
honeycrush
Legend
Bronze Level
That hand played out unfortunately for you but a passive fish who calls a raise with 58o then calls a good sized flop bet with a gut shot, and a turn bet with just bottom pair is definitely someone you want to have at your table! He didn't bet the river though so you lost the minimum really. Did you stick around and stack him later?
vinnie
Legend
Silver Level
Fixed that for you. On the flop any 10 or 6 makes a straight for the fish. On the turn, any 10, 6, 5, or 8 improves his hand to two pair or better.
On the flop, he can think he had 8 outs. Getting 2.3-1 [needs 4.6-1] it's a loose peel (especially since not all of his outs are clean). There is a lot of money left in the stacks though, so he might believe he has implied odds. On the turn, he had 13 outs to improve (again, not all of them are clean) and he's getting 2.95-1 [needs at least 2.5-1 to call]. He still might believe the straight will be good enough to win, but he also has position and a lot of outs to improve.
I'm not claiming his play is good. It's clearly not. But, don't make it out to be worse than it is. There is logic behind these "poor" plays that we see. It's not random button-clicking.
vinnie
Legend
Silver Level
You really think he recognized the double gutshot while instacalling?
Don't underestimate the fish. Fish are hopeless optimists, seeing the best possibilities for their hands. They may not understand how unlikely improvement is, but they know it's possible.
Also, your turn bet gave him straight odds to make the call. So he didn't even make a mistake there. I doubt he knew that it wasn't a mistake. He likely doesn't think that way. But, his call was correct. You should have bet bigger on the turn. Half pot doesn't get full value from your hand and makes these wild calls mathematically correct.
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Aleksei
Legend
Silver Level
PLAY 6MAX. Your tilty brain will thank you.
Uh, not with a lot of people in pot. Statistically if you have AK and there's 4 people in the pot with you, each with a VPIP of 30%, the odds of them having better than your top pair, King (on a board that isn't 3straight, 3flush or paired) are about 1/3. Paired boards kick that number up a notch, and in monotone or 3straight flops, statistically you're dead over half the time (but will still get very good implied odds if you can get more than one villain to continue with a worse range, so smallballing is a decent option -- just expect to get coolered the majority of the time).
LD1977
Legend
Silver Level
Well I didn't think 5 helped him so I reduced bet size to string him along. Of course that is incorrect since he calls anyway and also since trying to guess his range is just silly.
Aleksei
Legend
Silver Level
acky100
Legend
Silver Level
WTF are you even on about lol? Your already qualified for the freeroll club stop spouting off irrelevant bs all the time!
Aleksei
Legend
Silver Level
Dude's on tilt because he can't do any fancy moves, every pot he's in is like 4-way, he gets coolered all the time. There is one simple solution to that: Stop ****ing playing in a crammed table.
Aleksei
Legend
Silver Level
Pretty much everything you've said sounds majorly like tilt, but you know yourself best I guess.
Hartaka
Enthusiast
Silver Level
ok i played similar tables and i will give you an advice. think of it this way:
one pair hand is strong in hu situation but if you are playing AK or AQ or big pairs its not that good anymore against multiple players. if they are fish they will call you to the river and beat you. if there is alot of players in the pot that mean you get the odds to play connectors and suited cards. its ridiculous you get to play draws and set mine all the time and you will get big pots. im sure if you give it a try it will work for you. and remember do not make mistakes on the river and do not bluff !!!
one pair hand is strong in hu situation but if you are playing AK or AQ or big pairs its not that good anymore against multiple players. if they are fish they will call you to the river and beat you. if there is alot of players in the pot that mean you get the odds to play connectors and suited cards. its ridiculous you get to play draws and set mine all the time and you will get big pots. im sure if you give it a try it will work for you. and remember do not make mistakes on the river and do not bluff !!!
LD1977
Legend
Silver Level
Sarcasm?
I meant that when I hit the draws the pot is already moderately big and I can get value on the river, while if I miss I can give up on the river and not pay off. The difference is the profit.
If a miracle happens and everybody actually folds, even better plus I get the benefit that I play big draws and sets in the same way so anybody taking notes has a slightly more complicated job.
I meant that when I hit the draws the pot is already moderately big and I can get value on the river, while if I miss I can give up on the river and not pay off. The difference is the profit.
If a miracle happens and everybody actually folds, even better plus I get the benefit that I play big draws and sets in the same way so anybody taking notes has a slightly more complicated job.
Aleksei
Legend
Silver Level
Well like, you can get paid off huge in multiway pots vs loose fish, so that's where your profit comes from is you have no FE (such as when your villains stubbornly school together, which is what this thread is about).
LD1977
Legend
Silver Level
That is my reasoning too.
It seems that in these situations people mostly put me on some kind of TP hand and try to outdraw me, so if I am instead drawing to a (ideally nut) straight/flush then their 2 pairs and weak straights are not so wonderful anymore.
It seems that in these situations people mostly put me on some kind of TP hand and try to outdraw me, so if I am instead drawing to a (ideally nut) straight/flush then their 2 pairs and weak straights are not so wonderful anymore.
RodneyC86
Visionary
Silver Level
Aleksei has a point here IMO, acky
When so many people decide to brawl in a multiway again and again and willing to attempt to outdraw by calling each other right until the river, I think the NLHE game essentially becomes more or less a Limit game, and we all know at microstakes Limit games The Aces and Kings and whatever combination thereoff gets sucked out very often.
Having said that, raise your big aces way larger to discourage multiway.
Standard raise speculative hands.
Fish 'probably' won't give much note to your bet sizing preflop?
Btwm do this only on fish infested tables like how you describe.
Alternatively, if you hate to gamble with fish and want a proper game, GTFO, now.
When so many people decide to brawl in a multiway again and again and willing to attempt to outdraw by calling each other right until the river, I think the NLHE game essentially becomes more or less a Limit game, and we all know at microstakes Limit games The Aces and Kings and whatever combination thereoff gets sucked out very often.
Having said that, raise your big aces way larger to discourage multiway.
Standard raise speculative hands.
Fish 'probably' won't give much note to your bet sizing preflop?
Btwm do this only on fish infested tables like how you describe.
Alternatively, if you hate to gamble with fish and want a proper game, GTFO, now.