Fish schooling (as in similar to shoaling)

[LD1977]

Erm, playing vs nits is easy, the topic is how to play vs massed fish. Presumably fish are fish everywhere so it is not relevant which site it is.

So far the only viable strategy proposed has been to basically nit it up and value bet only with nutlike hands.

I agree that if you run like God you can get rich, but the problem is what to do when you run average or below average (or with extra coolers) so your card strength is nothing special. This is the big problem here, "moves" don't work and lots of small losses + the rake are eating into any profits from occasionally stacking someone.

Cafeman, I would seriously appreciate if you could try to pick that kind of bothersome tables and record the gameplay.

 

[Cafeman]

I just picked tables that had seats spare. I also made some calls just to show that villains had what I said they had (like the trip 6 hand where a less experienced player might go for huge 'value').

Anyways, I hope you enjoy me tarding it up for 30mins with the people who won't fold or whatever

TIP: use HD to see things more clearly.

 

[vinylspiros]

well, we could all agree to disagree with you, if you would only stop being so loud about your wrong opinion

whether its wrong or right,its just an opinion. im not being loud about it. i just stated it. i am entitled to an opinion right? or do i just have to say, yea 5 NL is a walk in the park. everyones making alot of money there. weeeeeee.

Im having difficulties beating it .Especially beating it as easy as many here describe it to be. maybe i am just very bad and need alot of work on my game.
Either way, i hope i can get better and make the adjustements required to beat it as easy as you can. thnks for tips.

 

[ScottishMatt]

Can't watch the video ATM but I can understand the exact scenario that Cafe mentions in his above post. I think one of your biggest problems is in understanding the current action and how it pertains to the players you are playing against. You need to evaluate and rethink your understanding of a valuebet.

 

[vinylspiros]

I just picked tables that had seats spare. I also made some calls just to show that villains had what I said they had (like the trip 6 hand where a less experienced player might go for huge 'value').

Anyways, I hope you enjoy me tarding it up for 30mins with the people who won't fold or whatever

TIP: use HD to see things more clearly.

lol5NL - YouTube

nice vid cafeman. LOL@u making vid as response to posts. but good stuff honestly.

I dont wanna sound like a troll. i DO understand that 5 NL is easy to beat and why people are saying it is. All im saying is that sometimes, it feels as though 10NL might be easier due to the fact that gameplay is "at times" more predictable. anyways. thanks for vid and thanks for replies everyone. I might just pm some people for help in near future.

thnks again for vid. good stuff.

 

[LD1977]

I started watching the video.

1. Why 6-max? 8 fish >>>> 5 fish.
2. Playing vs a mass of fishes in FR is different than playing bunch of random people in 6-max. So even though I plan to watch this, it is not really applicable.

Quick comments (first 4 minutes):
- Jam with AK (= TPTK), you are getting called by better hands a lot, no? This is not value betting as far as I understand it. I can't imagine how this is correct, if I posted this in a HH forum everybody would mock me and say I lose because I am an idiot.
- Donking with a set of 2s to "get value" from anything that hit, why not just check the flop since he bets if he hit and even if he missed? Then you can donk the turn if you really want to or let him bet it again. The set should be far ahead here unless he has a better set.
- Calling 3 bets with JJ was LOL

OK I do this sometimes too if I note that he does this with worse or the bets are small enough.

I stopped watching at 11:55 when you called a jam on the flop with A7o (TPTK)... dunno, maybe this is how 6-max is played but seriously in FR if a fish station jams like this it is an overpair+. Aggrotards do this with anything but I have zero problems with them.

P.S. I have time these days, what do I need to record a video like this? Headset with microphone (gotta buy one) and a recording software? Which free one is best?

 

[ScottishMatt]

Don't try to pull that shit LD. Doesn't matter how many of them there are. If you understand the principle of valuebetting then you understand how and when a valuebet is applicable. The amount of fish in the hand is almost irrelevant. Your problem is lack of fundamentals, you are trying to think way too many levels above them that you make mistakes. If they are on level 0, then you play at level 1. If they are on level 1, then you play on level 2. You cannot use level 3 to exploit level 0, it doesn't work that way and you know it. So stop trying to out level opponents because all you do is out level yourself, this is demonstrable in your hand histories.

I'm finished repeating the same point now. I'm extremely tolerant but I understand when my elaborations aren't heeded. This will be my last post in here so do yourself a favour and pay much needed attention to it.

 

[Cafeman]

1. Why 6-max? 8 fish >>>> 5 fish.

It's what I know and play.

2. Playing vs a mass of fishes in FR is different than playing bunch of random people in 6-max. So even though I plan to watch this, it is not really applicable.

A mass of fish != random fish? That may be the case, but it's close enough for me.

Jam with AK (= TPTK), you are getting called by better hands a lot, no? This is not value betting as far as I understand it. I can't imagine how this is correct, if I posted this in a HH forum everybody would mock me and say I lose because I am an idiot.

In context it was probably OK. I don't do the same thing every time. Plus I seem to recall there was a FD otf, which is always good for a jam for value. He called with a GS right? lol

Donking with a set of 2s to "get value" from anything that hit, why not just check the flop since he bets if he hit and even if he missed? Then you can donk the turn if you really want to or let him bet it again. The set should be far ahead here unless he has a better set.

Again, you can take either route, or you can x/r flop. I seem to recall it was a KJ2ss flop, so all draws/pairs are calling, which means donking is a pretty effective value bet in this case.

Calling 3 bets with JJ was LOL

OK I do this sometimes too if I note that he does this with worse or the bets are small enough.

Did I? Must have, but I can't recall - did I win, cos that's all that matters right

I stopped watching at 11:55 when you called a jam on the flop with A7o (TPTK)... dunno, maybe this is how 6-max is played but seriously in FR if a fish station jams like this it is an overpair+. Aggrotards do this with anything but I have zero problems with them.

LOL, so disgusted were you that I might call a jam from a half stack or whatever with TPTK that you stopped watching? Listen, you need to start thinking about board textures and ranges and stuff. They aint always got a set OK!

IMO, you need to get your story straight, they either will fold or they won't. They'll either call with any pair or a draw or they won't. You can't have it both ways. Tell me off for leading with bottom set on a draw heavy top heavy flop and then say that it isn't for value. Which is it? You are all over the place with your thoughts imo.

P.S. I have time these days, what do I need to record a video like this? Headset with microphone (gotta buy one) and a recording software? Which free one is best?

You can use Camtasia. I think there's a free trial, or something

 

[LD1977]

My story is straight, in the opening post I am talking about specifically picking tables with known players who are mostly calling stations. I mentioned the stats difference in these tables vs the whole sample of hands played (which is not so small anymore). It is very obvious how these tables play.

You are playing a table with random unknowns (maybe few nits/TAGs mixed in) so it is different and the strategy is different. I acknowledged that these massed fish tables are great if you have a set+ but on an unknown table I would adopt as a standard line checking the flop there.

SM - Numbers matter. If you have 9 stations in a FR table you get 2-3 on the flop on average and they don't fold to cbets much (and almost don't fold on the turn at all). If you have 6 players total you have 1-2 players on the flop.

If they are not massed stations then in 6-max I assume you get loads of heads up matchups, and I specifically said in the OP that isolating does not work in these tables.

 

[Cafeman]

Probs best to assume weak passive until proven otherwise at the nanos.

Anyways, you win, FR unbeatable, especially if full of stations who are well known as the hardest people to beat.

My last suggestion, as I'm following Matt out the door! Either move to random 6max tables, or move up to where they respect your raises.

HTH.

 

[LD1977]

Don't try to pull that shit LD. Doesn't matter how many of them there are. If you understand the principle of valuebetting then you understand how and when a valuebet is applicable. The amount of fish in the hand is almost irrelevant. Your problem is lack of fundamentals, you are trying to think way too many levels above them that you make mistakes. If they are on level 0, then you play at level 1. If they are on level 1, then you play on level 2. You cannot use level 3 to exploit level 0, it doesn't work that way and you know it. So stop trying to out level opponents because all you do is out level yourself, this is demonstrable in your hand histories.

I'm finished repeating the same point now. I'm extremely tolerant but I understand when my elaborations aren't heeded. This will be my last post in here so do yourself a favour and pay much needed attention to it.

This is quite correct. Only I find that the value betting thing is not so simple (unless you jam/call jams with every TPTK like Cafeman ) against multiple players and this is the key problem for me. They just outdraw me a lot and combined with the cases where I give up I can't seem to get ahead

So, I am gonna make a video hopefully in the next week or so and then we can all see what is the problem.

 

[DunningKruger]

bing blang blaow I got your nickels now

Empirically derived strategy is all well and good but I feel a little more theory would be quite beneficial to a lot of us here in this topic. Barring that, I suppose if you wanted to know how to beat a player of a particular profile, start playing the same way and make note of how players are beating you. Heh.

Regarding 6max vs full ring, there's zero doubt my 6max hourly at 5NL would positively decimate my hourly playing the equivalent number of FR tables.. simply because it's correct to play more hands.

As for nits being easy to play..... fish aren't???????¿ Any strong poker player would much rather a table full of droolers than a rock garden. But yea both player types are exploitable and pretty bad overall.

What else. To the guy who made a video (presumably) crushing 5NL, props. More effort than I certainly would've extended but it begged to be done.

 

[LD1977]

Well vs nits I just steal like crazy and cbet like crazy and all is well

Vs. fish I actually have to win showdowns and that is a bit more difficult. If they are massed, well, then I make a thread to see what is up.

 

[JOEBOB69]

Vid best thing in thread,except Joebob.

 

[acky100]

lol watching that video would almost lead me to believe that 5nl is full of monkeys flinging their pennies around!

Cafeman > Everyone

 

[Aleksei]

I have noticed an interesting trend that has been going on for a while but now I am pretty certain it is actually real.

I am talking about 5NL but I imagine same thing might be happening in other micro levels.

Lately I have been picking tables more carefully, when possible I like having 1-2 big losers on the table since that should be profitable for the rest of the players.

BUT

If the table is heavily populated by fish the following happens:
1. Blind stealing does not work
2. Cbets do not work
3. Isolating anyone does not work
4. Value betting does not work unless I am having a really good run of cards. The reason is that by the turn 2-3 fishes have seen 4 cards and all sorts of weird crap happens (straights, 2 pairs and sometimes sets) and it is not easy to survive until showdown unless I also have 2 pairs+ kind of hand (which doesn't happen that much).
5. Exotic coolers are pretty frequent
6. I win a few big pots with best hands (even stacks) but I am constantly bleeding money when on the turn I have overcards or some weak one pair hand (lets say I raised Axs or QJs from BTN) and have to give up.

Play 6max or learn to play multiway (protip: in a 4-way pot nothing short of TPTK will hold up ever, so your best bet is to polarize your range to AT+ and spec hands). VERY much preferably the former.

 

[LD1977]

TPTK is not even remotely good enough vs these guys, by the river someone will outdraw it unless TPTK also improves. I am now thinking spec hands are best vs schools of fish, they are gonna pay off enough to make it pay.

 

[acky100]

TPTK is not even remotely good enough vs these guys, by the river someone will outdraw it unless TPTK also improves. I am now thinking spec hands are best vs schools of fish, they are gonna pay off enough to make it pay.

cmon man, everyone is telling you you are wrong, and this comment is so very wrong, hell second pair no kicker is often the nuts at 5nl. You need to realise a lot of people here know what theyre talking about regarding 5nl... there is a lot of variance in poker

edit: switching from high cards to speculative hands = recipe for busto, dont say i didn't warn you if you go ahead with this plan.

 

[RamdeeBen]

Coming from someone who actually used to struggle and think 5nl was "to hard to beat", I can now 2 years later say - I was full of shit, stubborn and didn't listen to anyone which made me moving up an even longer time spell. So, you can learn from my mistakes and cut your time by just listening to what everyone is saying, or carry on moaning.

Everyone who is trying to help OP out just leads to him just throwing it back in their face yet he fails to realise that nearly everyone in this thread as far as I know has actually come from 2nl and believe it or not, including 5nl (in recent times) beating the limits and are playing 50nl+

If you choose not to listen and are adamant it doesn't work, it's impossible to make money etc etc..then actually it's CLEARLY you who is playing wrong and doing tons of basic stuff wrong. You can either take on board what everyone has said, including cafes effort to make a video outlining how ridiculously easy 5nl or just ignore it and continue losing and blaming the limit/players.

Your choice.

 

[vinylspiros]

Coming from someone who actually used to struggle and think 5nl was "to hard to beat", I can now 2 years later say - I was full of shit, stubborn and didn't listen to anyone which made me moving up an even longer time spell. So, you can learn from my mistakes and cut your time by just listening to what everyone is saying, or carry on moaning.

Everyone who is trying to help OP out just leads to him just throwing it back in their face yet he fails to realise that nearly everyone in this thread as far as I know has actually come from 2nl and believe it or not, including 5nl (in recent times) beating the limits and are playing 50nl+

If you choose not to listen and are adamant it doesn't work, it's impossible to make money etc etc..then actually it's CLEARLY you who is playing wrong and doing tons of basic stuff wrong. You can either take on board what everyone has said, including cafes effort to make a video outlining how ridiculously easy 5nl or just ignore it and continue losing and blaming the limit/players.

Your choice.

^^^this. LD: although i was on the same boat that your on a few weeks ago.Ihave come to realise that its not true. Take what everyone here is saying into account and try to practice what is being said. If they can do it,you can do it.

Instead of just trying to argue back,try to embrace the knowledge and information that some of these "winning 5NL" players have to offer(FOR FREE). Their explaining the traps of 5NL and all you have to do is open your ears and listen.

Anyways,thats what i have tried doing lately and i have seen huge differences. The limit is beatable. Try to find the recipe and conquer it.

 

[LD1977]

I have played 90k hands in 5NL and my results when I had TPTK or TPGK on the flop and saw showdown are +0.52$ from 213 hands (4.88 bb/100). That includes loads of brutal and hilarious bad beats, some of which have been posted hereabout.

If I saw showdown with TPTP or TPGK it changes to -3.08$ from 132 hands for -47 bb/100.

Difference comes from the fact that flop TPTP/TPGK improves some of the time.

Majority of TPTK $$$ comes from folds (mostly to flop cbets) and for that I don't need a hand.

So either "variance" and "runbad" lasts for 90k hands or that shit doesn't work.

 

[acky100]

I'm trying to help but, the problem is not that "shit doesn't work", if you're not beating 5nl for a good clip over 90k hands you have some massive massive leaks in your game, which is why you are having poor results with the solid hands that everyone else makes a killing off. Likely you struggle folding them when you're beat or don't get enough value with them when you're ahead. Anyways i got a feeling trying to help here is useless with your current mindset.

 

[RamdeeBen]

So either "variance" and "runbad" lasts for 90k hands or that shit doesn't work.

You seem to think it HAS to be one of those.. It's like your blind to wanting to look at your own game and are quick to assume it has to be variance, run bad or it simply doesn't work.

Have you tried looking at how your playing all of these hands? I'd bet your doing something majorly wrong post flop.


Post a a load of these spots that come up, where you have TPTK or TPGK ( no bad beats though) and you can get some feedback on how your playing the hands.

 

[LD1977]

Surely I have leaks, that isn't disputed. Problem is that I can't seem to find them even with following all the advice from here and with freaking Leak Buster.

I tried probably 3 or 4 different styles of play and all of them produce similar results. It is not like I am stubbornly trying same things over and over again, whatever adjustment I make (based on the advice from here) turns out to be pretty much neutral.

Especially value betting overpairs/TPTKs runs into stuff like this:
https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-games-11/10nl-easier-than-2-5-nl-223569/post-2122029.html - Note the amount lost.
https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cas...50/5-nlhe-full-ring-prototypical-hand-225819/ - This one is iffy but the same happens regularly with "normal" TPTK hands like AQ/AK.

Then there are butchered hands like this:
https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-game-hand-analysis-50/5-nlhe-full-ring-line-check-225813/

So the truth is somewhere in the middle.

I am going to focus on TP hands for HH forum (couldn't post for a while) so we can see what is the problem. Also I bought a headset with a mic so when my throat heals I will try to make a video or two.

 

[jcdagenius]

table selection is critical....and you are right these moves wont work against fish .....theses moves only work against good players....but t he problem with nits at the table is less action and more folding....weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee