Deco's Thai Cash Thread

[Deco]

Would you care to share what scenarios you're looking at? Ive only started looking at steal spots like BTN v SB/BB and SB/BB.

Sure I'm currently updated my BB vs CO 3betting range.
Villain needs me to fold ~60% of the time for him to breakeven on his 4bets, so for a balanced range I'm looking to have 60% 3bet/folds and 40% 3bet/5bets.

So I come up with a value range I'm comfortable stacking off with and record the size of the range. {AK,JJ+} = 3%. I then add 4.5% worth of bluffs made up off the strongest hands I don't flat.

It's a decent enough estimate of a balanced range, if we were really picky we could say it's a little bluff heavy as the 40:60 ratio assumes villain's defence consists only of 4betting when in reality he will flat and allow our bluffing range to realize it's equity.

If someone is folding to 3bets over 65% of the time from the CO in position (very rare in my experience the button and SB is were people falter on this) I'll throw the 60:40 ratio out the window and start 3bet bluffing exploitivly have a range more like this.

If someone 4bets too much, I'll throw 99/TT in to my range. If someone flats too much I'll merge my range. If someone opens too wide I'll flat the top of my 3bet bluffing range and 3bet the top of my folding range. If someone opens too nitty I'll do the opposite.
There's so many exploitive adjustments to make it helps to have a default balanced range as a reference. If I forget it I can simply bring the .png up whilst grinding.

 

[John A]

How are you coming up with this range exactly? It seems pretty bad tbh. So you are flatting K9s and A2s? Why would you not be 3-betting these hands over hands like 65s and 76s? You think his flatting range you're going to out flop OOP and play these? Sorry, just don't understand the logic / thinking here at all.

 

[Deco]

So you are flatting K9s and A2s?

Yes.
Unless I'm against a tight opener were I'd elect to 3bet them in place of the weaker suited hands.

Too loose?
The reason I was updating my CO 3betting range was as I recently widened my BB vs CO flatting range.

 

[John A]

Yes.
Unless I'm against a tight opener were I'd elect to 3bet them in place of the weaker suited hands.

Too loose?
The reason I was updating my CO 3betting range was as I recently widened my BB vs CO flatting range.

If you're assuming about 28-30% open, then yes, too loose. You're at an equity disadvantage OOP to start with. I think it's good range if you were playing limit.

 

[Deco]

If you're assuming about 28-30% open, then yes, too loose. You're at an equity disadvantage OOP to start with. I think it's good range if you were playing limit.

On average what proportion of our equity do you think we realize here?
A2s & K9s have 47% equity against a 30% range which I'd have thought was adequate even with equity being a very crude measure of preflop hand strength.

 

[John A]

Like everything, it depends on how good your opponent is. I think on average probably about -15% of expected equity out of position. Could be more, or could be less depending on your opponents skills. Like you said, equity is crude for many factors. Solid bluffing ability, but most importantly big hand potential is also a huge calculation. You're going to make more big hands (when they are actually big), with a hand like JTs versus K9s. K9s has more showdown potential, JTs has more stacking potential. So a lot of factors to consider when choosing flatting ranges OOP.

Also, K9s won't have 47% against most decent ranges. Maybe 43/44 at most. I'm splitting hairs a little, but it all matters if you're going to try and grind this game hard. You want to be making precise decisions as consistently as possible over large volume samples. GL!

 

[RickH1983]

My question is how are you making a living off of .50/1 limits? Are you eating peanut butter and jelly every night?

 

[John A]

My question is how are you making a living off of .50/1 limits? Are you eating peanut butter and jelly every night?

Decent volume you can do 3k/mo with rakeback pretty easy. Live in a place with a low cost of living and you can get by.

 

[pocketehs]

Decent volume you can do 3k/mo with rakeback pretty easy. Live in a place with a low cost of living and you can get by.

Can't imagine the expenses in Thailand are high.

Also isn't online poker illegal in Thailand? I imagine the likelihood of getting caught unless you're moving there permanently is pretty low but the punishments would probs suuuck.

 

[hackmeplz]

Sure I'm currently updated my BB vs CO 3betting range.
Villain needs me to fold ~60% of the time for him to breakeven on his 4bets, so for a balanced range I'm looking to have 60% 3bet/folds and 40% 3bet/5bets.

You realize there's a 3rd option right?

 

[Deco]

You realize there's a 3rd option right?

It's a decent enough estimate of a balanced range, if we were really picky we could say it's a little bluff heavy as the 40:60 ratio assumes villain's defence consists only of 4betting when in reality he will flat and allow our bluffing range to realize it's equity.

This what you mean?

Generally I start adjusting my range to be bluff heavy a bit before 65% to take this in to account. The lower their 4bet the more il drift past the figure.

I don't think it will be off by anymore than 5% tops so I think my mild adjustments around the 60% mark atone for this. You probably know theory better than me, that sound about right?

 

[lulu pk]

Good luck in Thailand.Post some pictures make us jalouses

 

[hackmeplz]

This what you mean?

No I meant you're allowed to call 4-bets, you don't have to only fold or 5b, and with the way people size 4-bets and the range they do it with I actually think it's a leak to not have a call 4b range. Like when sizings are something like 3 -> 10 -> 21 that means you're either folding hands like AJ/KQ/AQ getting 3:1 when you dominate like all their 4b bluffs and they're going to play super straightforward postflop, you're shoving them in a spot where you're not getting a very good price and basically you fold out everything you beat and get called by hands that are generally crushing you, or you're not 3-betting them in the first place which I don't think is very good for you when your 3bets get flatted because your value range is just absurdly small on a lot of boards then.

And like idk I guess at 100nl it's not a huge leak in that particular spot to not have a 4b call range but something like CO vs. button if sizings go like 3 -> 8 -> 17 (or maybe 3 -> 9 -> 20?) and we're IP I think it's a huge leak to be purely fold or 5b or button vs. SB or BB if it's like 2 -> 7 -> 15 or something. I mean generally I just think at 100nl not many people flat 4-bets so people 4b small in general so you should probably approach your 3b game assuming that small sizing and expecting to be able to flat some 4-bets.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

I didn't want to say it b/c frankly Deco is a much better player than me, but I was curious about not having a flat-4bet range.

Anyway, kind of upset I'm at an anonymous site, cause I really like thinking about relatively bluffy ranges pre. But where I play 3bets tend to be so uncommon that having a bluff 4bet range will just get you in trouble. Feel like I'm missing out though

 

[Deco]

No I meant you're allowed to call 4-bets, you don't have to only fold or 5b, and with the way people size 4-bets and the range they do it with I actually think it's a leak to not have a call 4b range. Like when sizings are something like 3 -> 10 -> 21 that means you're either folding hands like AJ/KQ/AQ getting 3:1 when you dominate like all their 4b bluffs and they're going to play super straightforward postflop, you're shoving them in a spot where you're not getting a very good price and basically you fold out everything you beat and get called by hands that are generally crushing you, or you're not 3-betting them in the first place which I don't think is very good for you when your 3bets get flatted because your value range is just absurdly small on a lot of boards then.

And like idk I guess at 100nl it's not a huge leak in that particular spot to not have a 4b call range but something like CO vs. button if sizings go like 3 -> 8 -> 17 (or maybe 3 -> 9 -> 20?) and we're IP I think it's a huge leak to be purely fold or 5b or button vs. SB or BB if it's like 2 -> 7 -> 15 or something. I mean generally I just think at 100nl not many people flat 4-bets so people 4b small in general so you should probably approach your 3b game assuming that small sizing and expecting to be able to flat some 4-bets.

It's something I've been meaning to look in to. I've generally kept myself from folding to 4bets too much by 5bet/folding small with KJ/AJ sorta hands, or 5bet shoving wide when the sizing dictates I do so.

Do you reduce your 5bet range to account for your flats or do you have a super low F4B? I fear to keep my range from being {AQ,AJ,KQ} I'd need to flat 4bets with my junky suited bluffs as well and become one of these 40% F4B regs who never get 4bet bluffed.

 

[John A]

FYI Deco, I don't want to say anything on that other forum, because frankly I'm done giving strategy away over there. But I will say on here that realized equity drops dramatically the lower your top card becomes. You don't have as much showdown value with these hands. So saying -15% realized equity is extremely general, but as you go down the hand chain it can drop to -75% or more. Those guys are playing limit poker. If you're defending w/ 40% of your range against someone who is opening 30% because you're getting 2.5:1, you're defending with a looser range OOP when your equity is going to drop like a rock with a lot of 3rd tier hands.

 

[hackmeplz]

I'm kinda busy now but do the math on how often 5b bluffs have to work against the average regs. Generally the only time 5b bluff shoving is going to be profitable is if they simultaneously are 4b bluffing a ****ton and also not adjusting by stacking wider than JJ+/AK. Like I think it was they had to have a 4b range of like 8% for shoving hands with 30% equity vs. calling ranges to be profitable? And most people who have wider 4b bluffing ranges are adjusting by also 4b/calling 99/TT/AQ-type hands.

I personally don't have a small 5b bluff range 100bb deep it may be a leak and have been meaning to work on whether I want that to be part of my game or not, but I think assuming 5bets are always a shove that it's fine to have literally a 0% 5bet bluff range and you can flat enough 4-bets such that they're not exploiting you by just 4-betting a lot (and obviously if they start 4-betting you insanely wide you can start 5betting wider for value as well).

But in general the major reason I think it's so important to have a 4b calling range is that otherwise you're either not 3-betting hands that do well in 3b pots (like you're flatting AQ from the BB vs. a CO open when it's going to be sooooo profitable to 3bet), you're folding way too much to 4-bets, or you're shipping in spots that aren't very good. Plus I think theory-wise it allows you to have more 3b bluffs as well? Especially if they still are 4-bet bluffing hands your 3b/calls dominate a lot.

 

[hackmeplz]

It's something I've been meaning to look in to. I've generally kept myself from folding to 4bets too much by 5bet/folding small with KJ/AJ sorta hands

I mean sure there's the factor of you being capped and him not, and in that spot him being IP. But the fact that the hands you're trying to fold you typically have 65-70% equity against and people typically play super face-up in 4b pots I think make it a much better call than 5b/fold once you've 3bet them and gotten 4b.

 

[Deco]

FYI Deco, I don't want to say anything on that other forum, because frankly I'm done giving strategy away over there. But I will say on here that realized equity drops dramatically the lower your top card becomes. You don't have as much showdown value with these hands. So saying -15% realized equity is extremely general, but as you go down the hand chain it can drop to -75% or more. Those guys are playing limit poker. If you're defending w/ 40% of your range against someone who is opening 30% because you're getting 2.5:1, you're defending with a looser range OOP when your equity is going to drop like a rock with a lot of 3rd tier hands.

I could see the argument they were putting across. Basically that having such an Ax heavy range would make balancing my postflop ranges really difficult. Like you I'm unsure suited connectors and the like could make a profit in isolation. But ye that 40% range someone put out there was just lol.

Cashy/Kysus is a pretty big winner at SSNL but his style is one which would be very difficult to emulate. He's a 32/25 who defends a shitton in the blinds yet still has the lowest FCB figures I've seen on any reg.

I'm kinda busy now but do the math on how often 5b bluffs have to work against the average regs. Generally the only time 5b bluff shoving is going to be profitable is if they simultaneously are 4b bluffing a ****ton and also not adjusting by stacking wider than JJ+/AK. Like I think it was they had to have a 4b range of like 8% for shoving hands with 30% equity vs. calling ranges to be profitable? And most people who have wider 4b bluffing ranges are adjusting by also 4b/calling 99/TT/AQ-type hands.

I personally don't have a small 5b bluff range 100bb deep it may be a leak and have been meaning to work on whether I want that to be part of my game or not, but I think assuming 5bets are always a shove that it's fine to have literally a 0% 5bet bluff range and you can flat enough 4-bets such that they're not exploiting you by just 4-betting a lot (and obviously if they start 4-betting you insanely wide you can start 5betting wider for value as well).

But in general the major reason I think it's so important to have a 4b calling range is that otherwise you're either not 3-betting hands that do well in 3b pots (like you're flatting AQ from the BB vs. a CO open when it's going to be sooooo profitable to 3bet), you're folding way too much to 4-bets, or you're shipping in spots that aren't very good. Plus I think theory-wise it allows you to have more 3b bluffs as well? Especially if they still are 4-bet bluffing hands your 3b/calls dominate a lot.

I mean sure there's the factor of you being capped and him not, and in that spot him being IP. But the fact that the hands you're trying to fold you typically have 65-70% equity against and people typically play super face-up in 4b pots I think make it a much better call than 5b/fold once you've 3bet them and gotten 4b.

Maths on tiny 5bet bluffs is around 45%-50% depending on the sizing involved. 5bet shoves are a bitch to work out but I recall it was 50%-55%. assuming 33% equity on average which may be incorrect in some cases.

With CO vs BB my 7%ish range is tight enough that my shoves are all {AK, JJ+}. Btn vs SB/BB the smaller sizing allows me to tiny 5bet bluff (which in turn allows me to keep 3betting AQ/AJ).

I've no argument against how the hands my AQ bluffs has 75% equity although the same can't be said for the KJ/KQ 5bet/folds. My main problem is that my range is going to look like {AJ/AQ} when I do flat unless I start flatting all sorts of junk to balance my range out.

Deep and BvB is where I've been trying to flat 4bets recently. I think I had some today. lol I'm coming up with reasons for my heavy 5betting when really I'm just scared of playing 4bets pots OOP with a capped range . I'll post the 4bet/calls I butchered

 

[Deco]

Both villains are regs I have't much history with or hands on.

First hand I'd normally 5bet ship but meh I'm deep.
Don't think I like the checkraise, makes my flatting range pretty vulnerable if my best pair is making a somewhat light checkraise in a spot where I'm not xpected to bluff very often.

2nd hand I feel once I'm this deep I'm in need of a 4bet flatting range seeing as 5bet bluffing to a reasonable size will be expensive and my value range is super narrow. I should really sit down and work out SB 3betting range deep as it's hell of an awkward spot.

Hand #1
poker stars $0.50/$1 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players - View hand 2322714
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

BTN: $140.89
Hero (SB): $257.38
BB: $103.75
UTG: $83.00
MP: $48.50
CO: $61.67

Pre Flop: ($1.50) Hero is SB with T :heart: T :club:
3 folds, BTN raises to $3, Hero raises to $10, 1 fold, BTN raises to $24, Hero calls $14

Flop: ($49.00) 2 :diamond: 3 :diamond: 9 :club: (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $26, Hero raises to $233.38 all in, BTN calls $90.89 all in

Turn: ($282.78) 4 :club: (2 players - 2 are all in)

River: ($282.78) 5 :diamond: (2 players - 2 are all in)

Final Pot: $282.78
BTN shows K :club: K :diamond: (a pair of Kings)
Hero shows T :heart: T :club: (a pair of Tens)
BTN wins $279.98
(Rake: $2.80)

Hand #2
Poker Stars $0.50/$1 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players - View hand 2322715
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

BTN: $202.55
Hero (SB): $291.33
BB: $194.53
UTG: $119.14
MP: $100.00
CO: $166.51

Pre Flop: ($1.50) Hero is SB with 8 :club: A :club:
3 folds, BTN raises to $2, Hero raises to $7, 1 fold, BTN raises to $16, Hero calls $9

Flop: ($33.00) J :diamond: A :heart: 8 :diamond: (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN checks

Turn: ($33.00) J :spade: (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN checks

River: ($33.00) 4 :spade: (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $18, Hero calls $18

Final Pot: $69.00
BTN shows A :spade: K :heart: (two pair, Aces and Jacks)
Hero mucks 8 :club: A :club:
BTN wins $66.20
(Rake: $2.80)

View all 2 hands

 

[Deco]

Oh looks like I flatted three 4bets today. This one worked out a little better.
Complete unknown, felt 5betting was a bit thin yet had odds and position so didn't want to fold.

Poker Stars $0.50/$1 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players - View hand 2322717
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

BTN: $73.36
SB: $94.11
Hero (BB): $207.26
UTG: $100.00
MP: $102.23
CO: $100.50

Pre Flop: ($1.50) Hero is BB with A :diamond: J :heart:
4 folds, SB raises to $3, Hero raises to $9, SB raises to $20.16, Hero calls $11.16

Flop: ($40.32) 7 :diamond: T :diamond: J :club: (2 players)
SB bets $24.29, Hero raises to $187.10 all in, SB calls $49.66 all in

Turn: ($188.22) 6 :spade: (2 players - 2 are all in)

River: ($188.22) Q :spade: (2 players - 2 are all in)

Final Pot: $188.22
SB shows T :spade: A :club: (a pair of Tens)
Hero shows A :diamond: J :heart: (a pair of Jacks)
Hero wins $185.42
(Rake: $2.80)

 

[John A]

Ya, I dunno. I mean I'm 30/24 over large samples, and unless you're playing perfect Durr like poker and re-stealing every single narrow spot (and not tilting from the variance), then I don't see it being profitable. Maybe across only a couple of tables, or against really bad regs.

I don't like hand 1. Pre is standard, but post, like hack said most people play pretty straight forward in 4 bet pots, so c/c and keep playing. Hand 2 I'd donk the flop and try and get him to spaz or call. Hand 3 is fine.

 

[RickH1983]

I think the two hands at the top were poorly played. Going all in with TT? The guy 4 bet you to $24 chances are he has something. Also you were talking about moving up in limits, if you go this at a higher limit you are going to lose a lot more money. I mean you can call the reraise preflop but after that I would proceed with caution. Your hand was already crushed. What he flopped a set of 9's?

For hand 2 you flopped 2 pair. It looks like you were going for a check raise and missed. In that situation when you are heads up especially on a raised pot I would have bet out. I mean it is obviously easier to see once the hand is over. In that situation the villian could have had AJ or J's i think throwing a bet out would help you to see where you are at in the hand instead of checking. It could help you to save the $18 on the river.

As for the third hand I think you got lucky with AJ there are a lot of hands that could beat you JT, 89,AK. I am not a fan of jamming with top pair. I see that you had success in that particular hand however I think that if you play more cautiously you are going to save yourself in the long run. The average winning poker hand is two pair. You got away with one but the villian could have flopped a set or two pair and then you are in bad shape.

I am not trying to be so harsh. I believe when you do move up in limits that these plays that you are making are going to hurt you instead of benefit you. Once you move up you dont want to be sent right back down to a lower limit.

 

[Deco]

Didn't get any poker done today. Getting things in order for Thailand.

Bought HM2, discovered all my 2009-2012 hands have been stuck in there since their free beta test ended. I'll post my graph from then if I can ever get gyazo to work. Games must have been so soft for me to be a winner back then. My Btn vs BB flatting range was {AQ,AJ,KQ,22-JJ}, and my 3betting range was {QQ+,AK}yet I still made $6K over 600K hands somehow. I guess I should be grateful for the heavy variance I later encountered that spurred me to work harder on improving my game. There's nothing worse for your game than running good.

Also picked up some albums to take with me I've never listed to. Been really getting in to classic rock lately so I've gone with the greatest hits albums of the Doors, the Stranglers, Jethro Tull, Neil Young and White Snake as well as getting a few more Black Sabbath, Hendrix and Iron Maiden albums.

 

[xdeucesx]

Didn't get any poker done today. Getting things in order for Thailand.

Bought HM2, discovered all my 2009-2012 hands have been stuck in there since their free beta test ended. I'll post my graph from then if I can ever get gyazo to work. Games must have been so soft for me to be a winner back then. My Btn vs BB flatting range was {AQ,AJ,KQ,22-JJ}, and my 3betting range was {QQ+,AK}yet I still made $6K over 600K hands somehow. I guess I should be grateful for the heavy variance I later encountered that spurred me to work harder on improving my game. There's nothing worse for your game than running good.

Also picked up some albums to take with me I've never listed to. Been really getting in to classic rock lately so I've gone with the greatest hits albums of the Doors, the Stranglers, Jethro Tull, Neil Young and White Snake as well as getting a few more Black Sabbath, Hendrix and Iron Maiden albums.

nut classic rock albums