Bill Chen - "The Mathematics Of Poker" Study Group

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rhombus

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Here, I just created it. I'm a fking Excel wizard!

(I assumed we have $1k stacks so that Villain can also overbet against us - not that I expected calling such a bet could be +EV for Hero :))

View attachment 77753

nice table :)
I suppose you just edit the formulas for the Multi Table Bots that tend to bet 1/2 pot Flop and 60% turn etc
 
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deuceswild

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So I notice that it becomes unprofitable when the percentage of the pot bet hits our ev. Will this always hold true? Assuming static ev...
 
Fknife

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nice table :)
I suppose you just edit the formulas for the Multi Table Bots that tend to bet 1/2 pot Flop and 60% turn etc

So I notice that it becomes unprofitable when the percentage of the pot bet hits our ev. Will this always hold true? Assuming static ev...

Ok, I guess it's time for me to start sharing those spreadsheets because only posting pictures of them is not really that valuable.

Here is that last one: Calldown_EV(BetSize)

I made it read-only so you should download it and import to your Excel/OpenOffice and just play around with various Equities or even add different flop/turn/river bet sizes (currently there is only one betsize across all the streets).

Do you want to quickly go over some other really fundamental concepts/stuff (such as: reasons for betting or whatever is still confusing you) before we jump into Part 2 of the book (next week) ?
 
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rhombus

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Do you want to quickly go over some other really fundamental concepts/stuff (such as: reasons for betting or whatever is still confusing you) before we jump into Part 2 of the book (next week) ?
Sounds good to me!!!:)
 
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rhombus

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did recreate a simialr table and always nice to get same answers as yours :)
 

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deuceswild

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Honestly I would like to think iknow already but I have learned quite a bit already there may be something I can get out of some basics. Here are my reasons for betting so far. To get a worse hand to call. To get a better hand to fold. To protect the value of my hand. The first two are fairly straight forward but I'm a little fuzzy on what the third one might be.
 
Fknife

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Honestly I would like to think iknow already but I have learned quite a bit already there may be something I can get out of some basics. Here are my reasons for betting so far. To get a worse hand to call. To get a better hand to fold. To protect the value of my hand. The first two are fairly straight forward but I'm a little fuzzy on what the third one might be.

So how would you describe those reasons in terms of their equities eg: how much (pot and/or fold) equity do you need to bet as a bluff etc?
 
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Figaroo2

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Honestly I would like to think iknow already but I have learned quite a bit already there may be something I can get out of some basics. Here are my reasons for betting so far. To get a worse hand to call. To get a better hand to fold. To protect the value of my hand. The first two are fairly straight forward but I'm a little fuzzy on what the third one might be.

Protecting your hand relates to betting to cause a drawing hand to call with unfavourable odds.
 
Fknife

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Protecting your hand relates to betting to cause a drawing hand to call with unfavourable odds.

So it's part of betting for/getting value, right? "Protection" also relates to the concept of dead-money. Let's wait to hear what @deuceswild has to say about those equities, before I start my essay about betting though. :)
 
Figaroo2

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I suppose theoretically any hand that is weaker than ours is a drawing hand.
Therefore anytime we believe we are ahead either preflop but especially on the flop and turn we should be betting to charge a weaker hand to draw. The strength of that draw is really immaterial other than to set the correct price of our bet.
I recently saw a quote from multi bracelet winner Allen Cunningham. It said simply "If you think you have the best hand you should be putting money into the pot"
I think its a simple but misunderstood part of the game. Closely linked to the concept of not giving free cards.
I have never really understood those players who say don't bet as it will fold out their air and weak holdings.
I mean why shouldn't we always be charging weak draws in such circumstances. Encouraging them to call with the wrong odds and thus be making a mistake which should overtime be good for our bankroll.
I suppose you could argue that it reduces the times an opponent may try to bluff but in the long run id be interested to see if mathematically we can see whether betting and getting worse to call is higher EV than allowing players to bluff and picking them off.
 
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the problem i have when betting for protection. If I have mediocre hand OOP against an aggro fish who I think is drawing is when they check raise.

So I'd say I struggle knowing when to bet and when to try and get to showdown to realise my equity. Also when I'm pot commited so not bothered if they shove. What maths can we use in those situations

Summary - Against passive fish so easy - Bet Bet FOLD when draw hits and they shove, other players not so easy
 
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deuceswild

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Well when betting to induce a call from a worse hand you want to bet an amount that is callable by a worse hand. So I am thinking since 40% equity is a fairly common equity for your opponent you would want to bet greater than 40% of the pot based off of your previous charts to make their ev be negative but probably not bet the whole pot since you are likely to get the worse hand to fold. So somewhere between 40-70% of the pot I am roughly estimating is a favorable bet amount. Well getting a better hand to fold... If you bet pot or any amount then they have to fold in an appropriate ratio to your equity to make the bluff worthwhile or positive ev. What that ratio is though I am not able to roughly estimate other than the value of the times you win the pot plus the value of how often they fold must be greater than 50% right? Rightish? As far as protecting the value of your hand based on somebody's above description you want to charge a draw a bad price. So if you are against a flush draw, you want to bet > 33% of the pot to male sure their ev is negative and a flush draw on the flop is only 32.5 percent to win right? Although that seems very similar to the first case.
 
Figaroo2

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Well when betting to induce a call from a worse hand you want to bet an amount that is callable by a worse hand. So I am thinking since 40% equity is a fairly common equity for your opponent you would want to bet greater than 40% of the pot based off of your previous charts to make their ev be negative but probably not bet the whole pot since you are likely to get the worse hand to fold. So somewhere between 40-70% of the pot I am roughly estimating is a favorable bet amount. Well getting a better hand to fold... If you bet pot or any amount then they have to fold in an appropriate ratio to your equity to make the bluff worthwhile or positive ev. What that ratio is though I am not able to roughly estimate other than the value of the times you win the pot plus the value of how often they fold must be greater than 50% right? Rightish? As far as protecting the value of your hand based on somebody's above description you want to charge a draw a bad price. So if you are against a flush draw, you want to bet > 33% of the pot to male sure their ev is negative and a flush draw on the flop is only 32.5 percent to win right? Although that seems very similar to the first case.

Yes this all seems perfectly sensible. As you are likely to be facing flush and oes-draws regularly which have around 30%-40 equity then if we bet half pot that is plenty. (as long as if the draw appears to come in we don't pay off any implied odds.
If you know they chase draws you can pump it up to 60-80% of the pot, we all know fish will call anything to try and hit their draws so lets bet what we think they will call to help them make the biggest mistake they can
 
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Fknife

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Well when betting to induce a call from a worse hand you want to bet an amount that is callable by a worse hand. So I am thinking since 40% equity is a fairly common equity for your opponent you would want to bet greater than 40% of the pot based off of your previous charts to make their ev be negative but probably not bet the whole pot since you are likely to get the worse hand to fold. So somewhere between 40-70% of the pot I am roughly estimating is a favorable bet amount. [..]

Ok you jumped right into bet sizing, which is actually a pretty complex concept. I'm sure we will get to that sooner or later and it will be also heavily described in the book. For now I just wanted to try to describe those various reasons for betting in terms of their required equities.

Well getting a better hand to fold... If you bet pot or any amount then they have to fold in an appropriate ratio to your equity to make the bluff worthwhile or positive ev. What that ratio is though I am not able to roughly estimate other than the value of the times you win the pot plus the value of how often they fold must be greater than 50% right? Rightish?

From an exploitive point of view, if a smaller bet will do a job...than you should bet smaller. In theory and from a balance point of view, if your range is bluff-heavy you should be betting bigger (and bet smaller if you're value heavy), which might seem a bit counterintuitive - we will get to that later :)

As far as protecting the value of your hand based on somebody's above description you want to charge a draw a bad price. So if you are against a flush draw, you want to bet > 33% of the pot to male sure their ev is negative and a flush draw on the flop is only 32.5 percent to win right? Although that seems very similar to the first case.

I see Bruce just answered this one... :)

Anyway, back to those reasons: I was generally tought to think about them as if they were mutually inclusive. Something like this:

Betting reasons


Now, lets say we have that general EV of betting equation:

<Bet> = P(V_folds) * Amount_Won + P(V_calls) * [P(H_wins) * Amount_Won – P(H_loses) * Amount_Lost)]

The red part represents EV gained from non-showdown winnings (just like on your HM2 graphs) and the blue part are your showdown winnings.

(This equation "assumes" there is not action ahead so it's a bit limited but hopefully it won't be a problem with understanding the general concept)

Looking at those different reasons for betting (PE - pot equity, FE - fold equity, V - Villain):

1. Value [sh*tloads of PE; FE not required] - we have a very, very strong hand and the majority of our EV comes from the blue part of the equation - when we are called (value from V's TPTK, 2 pairs, sets when we hold a flush). We do get value from V folding, but it's more like a really small fraction (value from V folding a middle pair against our flush).

2. Value/Protection[lots of PE; some FE] - our EV comes from the times V folds AND calls (so the red and blue terms are non-zero). A common example is a TPTK on a drawy boards or a MP against 2 overcards. It still works as a value bet, because we are making money when opponent calls and there is also significant amount of value gained from opponent folding - we pick up the dead money, fold out opponent part of equity while protecting and realizing ours ("Folding Villain's equity share of the pot is a part of value").

(AFAIK you have to have at least 50% equity to call it a value-bet; I posted few links to videos with a guy talking about finding the weakest value-bet in H's range in my old thread some time ago)

3. Protection [some PE + FE] - that's a bit tricky because it relies mostly on dead-money. Basically we are not going to get called by worse AND we are not going to fold out better. Example:

Board: Ac9s5d9hQc
H's hand: 6d5s (OOP)
V's range: {Ad9c, ThTc, 8s7s}
Pot: $50
Eff stacks: $50

If H decides to Check, V can make him indifferent between Check/Calling and Check/Folding (both EVs will be 0) by just shoving his entire range.

But, if H shoves first (he has 33% pot equity against V's range so he can't shove for Value here), V would probably fold {8s7s, ThTc} so:

<Shove> = .67 * $50 + .33 * (0 * $100 - 1 * $50) = $33.5 - $16.5 = $17

(the blue term is negative because H loses each time he gets called)

So...the shoving basically allowed H to protect/realize his equity.


4. Semibluffing [low PE; decent FE] - a bluff with non-zero pot equity. It requires more streets to come - you can't semibluff on the river (red term is higher than the blue one).

5. Bluff [0% PE, lots of FE] - the blue term in equation is always negative and our EV comes only from the red one (when V folds).



Btw, you can start reading Chapter 4 of the book!!!
 
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Figaroo2

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Loving the chart

Terrific concepts well explained Martin:)
 
Fknife

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Terrific concepts well explained Martin:)

The Bluff and Value circles are so crooked - thank MS Paint for that :(

Getting back (for the last time) to that calldown - during a live game, which stats would you use to justify your actions if you were to make those calls? Like, what is your thought process/what are you looking for when you find yourself in such a situation?

(It's never good to play only "by stats" but let's suppose it's a close spot and you have decent sample on V)
 
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I'm struggling a bit to understand your explanation of pure protection. You say we are not going to get called by worse and better won't fold, so does that simply mean we are removing the folding equity from our opponents bluffs? But if that is the case isn't this mostly just a pure bluff? If anytime I get called I'm expecting to lose I call that a bluff.
 
Figaroo2

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I'm struggling a bit to understand your explanation of pure protection. You say we are not going to get called by worse and better won't fold, so does that simply mean we are removing the folding equity from our opponents bluffs? But if that is the case isn't this mostly just a pure bluff? If anytime I get called I'm expecting to lose I call that a bluff.

Lets say you have AK vJQ with a 257 flop. if you bet JQ may fold thus realising your full equity. If you don't bet and give him a free card and a J comes on the turn then you failed to protect your hand by not betting.
Remember 2/3 of the time unpaired hands miss the flop so often a cbet takes it down for you whether you have anything or not.
People seem to forget this simple fact
 
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Lets say you have AK vJQ with a 257 flop. if you bet JQ may fold thus realising your full equity. If you don't bet and give him a free card and a J comes on the turn then you failed to protect your hand by not betting.

Remember 2/3 of the time unpaired hands miss the flop so often a cbet takes it down for you whether you have anything or not.

People seem to forget this simple fact


This, but more concretely if you make a hand with equity fold we get 100% of the pot but if we check it down we get less than 100%
 
Fknife

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You say we are not going to get called by worse and better won't fold, so does that simply mean we are removing the folding equity from our opponents bluffs? But if that is the case isn't this mostly just a pure bluff? If anytime I get called I'm expecting to lose I call that a bluff.

Pure bluff is when you have absolutely no pot equity so that every time you get called, you lose (the blue term is always negative). Therefore, you have to have some Fold Equity (at least the magnitude of the blue term) for a Pure Bluff to be +EV. We talk about Pure Bluffs mostly in River situations where you know which hands have close to 0% chance of winning at showdown (eg: busted draws). At earlier streets, there are no lots of pure bluffing spots because even some of the worst hands in your range can sometimes get lucky (eg: gutshots) and improve to best/showdown value hands (unless of course you're already drawing dead).

Bruce gave an example involving Fold Equity, which is good, but it's not always the case. Consider this one:

Board: AhTh4d
Our hand: 8h9h
Pot size: $100
Effective stacks: $50

Against any reasonable range, there is enough dead money to just get it in even without fold equity. We usually will have about 35% pot equity here:

<Shove> = 0 * $100 + 1 * (.35 * $150 - .65 * $50) = 0 + $20 = $20

So it is not a bluff as we don't expect to fold out better - the red term (EV from Fold Equity) is 0. It is not a value bet also because it is unlikely we will be called by worse (maybe some dominated flush draws at most). Despite that, the blue term (EV from showdown) is positive here because we get to fully realize our equity (+ there is enough dead money to justify our bet).

The summary for Chapter 4 is coming later today.
 
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Chapter 4 Summary.

(No example this time because the concepts presented in the chapter are very simple and rather well known to everybody. Instead, I made the summary a bit longer and added some stuff not mentioned in the book :) )

1. A Game consists of:
a) 2+ players
b) 1+ player has choices (strategy)
(in Poker every player has a strategy whereas in Blackjack a Dealer (who is considered a player) does not have any choices - he just has to follow a specifc set of rules).
c) Set of outcomes for each player (eg: $won/lost)
d) Outcomes depend on players' choices

2. Strategy - a complete specification of a player's actions.

In No-Limit Holdem that would be a complete specification of actions for every hand in range on every board run-out (every Flop, every Turn and River), opponents' actions, bet/stack sizes. Because this results in an enourmous game tree, we do the following things:

a) we use the term "strategy" a little more loosely (some people describe their strategy like: "I play tight and I bet good hands" <- now, how loose is that! :eek:).
b) we approximate/simplify lots of things through:
- eliminating very rare scenarios: if Villain has a range of 50% hands, you should not worry and develop a separate strategy for the times he flopped quads because it happens so rarely.
- grouping stuff together: instead of looking at each possible River card, we can divide them into specific, board changing groups such as: blanks, flush cards, overcards, Aces etc and develop our strategies for each of those groups; grouping hands in our/opponents' ranges works as well (maybe we are playing all of our Axs in a same way in a particular spot - why not treat them as "one"); same goes with grouping flop types (A-high, monotone, paired etc).
- reducing the amount of bs based on common sense/population tendencies: there is no need to look at every possible bet size with an increment of 1BB. Just look at common used sizings: 50%, 75% and pot size etc; check-raising on the River while leaving yourself 3BBs in the stack and then folding to a "re-shove" is not a logical and common line.
- reducing the amount of possible actions: various half/one/two street toy-games, lowering stack sizes etc.

3. Maximally exploitive strategy - a strategy with the highest EV against opponent's strategy.

(so this is quite a new type of thinking for lots of people; we are used to 'hand vs hand' or 'hand vs range' thinking/exploitation but here we are talking about strategy vs strategy exploitation. How awesome is that? Take a look at this article in your free time Levels of Randomness: Beyond G-Bucks)

Two steps to developing a maximally exploitive strategy:
1. Identify Villain's strategy - how he plays his ranges (HUD stats, population tendencies/common lines, experience, observation (eg: showdowns, how he plays his draws/made hands, is he cbetting polarized etc)).
2. Compute the most profitable response (math).

4. Draws vs made hands.
* Poker is not static - value of hands do change from street to street.
* Draw - a "worse" hand that needs to improve (outs) to be the best.
* A hand is said to be a favourite if it has the most equity in the pot (underdog - has the least amount of equity). Draws can be favourites.

In a made hand vs draw situations:
* The made hand usually bets.
* The draw usually calls if it has positive equity in the pot.

5. Pot odds and Implied odds.

Pot odds - ratio of the current size of the pot (Reward) to the cost of a potential call (Risk).

It's important to always think in terms of Risk:Reward. This equation will be constantly used in various toy games and real poker hands/scenarios:

Risk:Reward => Risk / (Risk + Reward)

It does not matter if you're deciding whether to make a call or a bluff, this equation is the way to go:

1. You 3-bet bluff to 9BB BTN vs CO 3BB open. You're risking 9BB (Risk) to win 0.5BB + 1BB + 3BB = 4.5BB (Reward) so it has to work more than: 9 / (9 + 4.5) = 66% of the time.
2. You cbet half the pot P. You're risking 0.5P to win P so it has to work: 0.5P / (0.5P + P) = 33% of the time (aka Villain's FCB >= 33%).
3. Someone bets $5 into a pot of $7. You have to risk $5 to win a pot of $5 + $7 = $12 so you have to win at least: $5 / ($12 + $5) = 29% of time.

Important facts about pot odds:
a) when drawing, always take into consideration chances of making the best hand on the next street unless you know you will get a free card on follow-up streets (simply put: when you have a draw on the flop, you should compare pot odds with your odds of making the hand on the Turn not on the Turn OR on the River).
b) raising with a draw to "get a correct price on drawing" (it probably applies mostly to Limit games) does not work - it's actually stupid because you're just putting more money into the pot as an underdog.

So pot odds basically assume that when the draw completes, no additional money goes into the pot. Implied Odds, on the other hand, take into consideration the money which is currently in the pot as well as additional money which might go into the pot on future streets when the draw completes.

Things that affect Implied Odds (IO):
a) big stack sizes (high IO).
b) tight players who only put money into the pot when they have strong hands (high IO), tight/weak players who fold to any postflop resistance (because "Turn/River raises are always the nuts at uStakes"; low IO).
c) aggressive players/maniacs (high IO); aggressive/loose preflop players (low IO); passive/loose players (also low IO).
d) board texture - the more draw heavy/scary/"obvious" board the lower the IO.

Beware of Reverse Implied Odds which describe the amount of money you will lose when you actually make your hand eg: you are drawing to a flush but the flush card also paires the board giving someone else a FH.

6. Reasons for betting: Value/Protection/Bluff (mutually inclusive).
They have been already described in more detail here: Reasons for Betting
 
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deuceswild

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Ah that makes more sense, guess I was more thinking of the example where the board was, A,9,5,9,Q. No flush or straight draws were present and we held 5-6 for just a pair of 5's. I mean you can say we don't have 0% equity here but is this a situation where we bet only to remove our opponents fold equity? The only thing we beat is pair of 4s 3s 2s and king high or worse. But the example I think said shoving was ok here right? Am I missing something?
 
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deuceswild

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Ah didn't even see the Ch 4 posting, so is this saying we should play more draws vs aggressive players and less vs tight players? Unless the ev is already positive of course.
 
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Ah that makes more sense, guess I was more thinking of the example where the board was, A,9,5,9,Q. No flush or straight draws were present and we held 5-6 for just a pair of 5's. I mean you can say we don't have 0% equity here but is this a situation where we bet only to remove our opponents fold equity? The only thing we beat is pair of 4s 3s 2s and king high or worse. But the example I think said shoving was ok here right? Am I missing something?

First of all, Villain's range is known: {Ad9c, ThTc, 8s7s}. Secondly: if we always check OOP, we have no chance of winning the pot ever, despite having 33% of pot equity - we don't get to realize it.

What do you mean by: "we bet only to remove our opponents fold equity" ?

Ah didn't even see the Ch 4 posting, so is this saying we should play more draws vs aggressive players and less vs tight players? Unless the ev is already positive of course.

I think that's a bit of an overgeneralization. There are various types of tight players. Some of them play really tight preflop and then just blindly bet/bet/bet with any piece of the board, some play loose preflop but become very cautious postflop etc. Same goes with aggressive ones, they might barrel a lot but slow down when some of the most obvious draws complete etc. One thing is for sure though: they have to have something to pay you off with, you just have to figure out what is the worst hand with which they are willing to play for stacks. Thats how I would approach it, I think. It's easier to figure out that stuff online than live although I've never played live so I can only guess (you said you do play live if I remember correctly).
 
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